Question about 50th anniversary edition

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ee09b2eb78bca7598a4e2@news.individual.net...
> Fri, 26 May 2006 03:27:01 GMT from Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002
> @nospam.yahoo.com>:
> > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:45:52 -0500, "Gorbag" <gorbag.DeleteThis@invalid.acct>
> > wrote:
>
> Is it really necessary to drag up eighteen-month old threads? One I
> could understand, maybe, if you found it particularly interesting and
> had some wonderful new insight, but you've posted a lot of followups
> to very old threads all at once.
>
> Could I suggest, meaning no disrespect, that threads that have run
> their course be allowed to sleep peacefully?
>


I ask, with all disrespect, that you're not the newsgroup police. I'd like
to hear more of this. If you don't like it, plonk the offenders.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Fri, 26 May 2006 03:27:01 GMT from Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002
> @nospam.yahoo.com>:
>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:45:52 -0500, "Gorbag" <gorbag.DeleteThis@invalid.acct>
>> wrote:
>
> Is it really necessary to drag up eighteen-month old threads? One I
> could understand, maybe, if you found it particularly interesting and
> had some wonderful new insight, but you've posted a lot of followups
> to very old threads all at once.
>
> Could I suggest, meaning no disrespect, that threads that have run
> their course be allowed to sleep peacefully?

I still don't understand the difference between bringing something up as
a reply to an old thread either:

a) Within the threading structure of the old thread
b) As an entirely new post, still quoting the old thread

To my mind, (a) has the advantage of preserving the thread, providing
that certain newsreaders and the like can cope with it, and (b) has the
disadvantage of breaking a discussion over several threads - though this
happens over the years anyway (some topics semm to come up again and
again).

Would you be happy with option (b)?

Christopher

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

> After this, Tolkien's career spanned three professorships (Leeds,
> Rawlinson Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon [Oxford], and Merton
> Professor of English Language and Literature [Oxford]).

Tolkien had an international reputation as a scholar. The University
of Madras in India badgered him for a while to accept an examinership
in mediaeval English studies (he refused). The Senate of Madras
University in those days was not the sort of place where the LoTR was
likely to have been read, so the offer was most probably made entirely
based on his scholarly reputation.

--
Arvind
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

"TT Arvind" <ttarvind RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148856384.499003.293240@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> After this, Tolkien's career spanned three professorships (Leeds,
>> Rawlinson Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon [Oxford], and Merton
>> Professor of English Language and Literature [Oxford]).
>
> Tolkien had an international reputation as a scholar. The University
> of Madras in India badgered him for a while to accept an examinership
> in mediaeval English studies (he refused). The Senate of Madras
> University in those days was not the sort of place where the LoTR was
> likely to have been read, so the offer was most probably made entirely
> based on his scholarly reputation.
>
> --
> Arvind
>
Tolkien was THE foremost authority on Holinshed, from which Shakespeare
culled several of his plays, including MacBeth, which was taken from
Holinshed's Chronicles almost verbatim.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Could I suggest, meaning no disrespect, that threads that have run
> their course be allowed to sleep peacefully?

Like a Balrog. Do not awaken the nameless fear!


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Morgoth's Curse wrote:

>
> I knew that Tolkien had worked on the OED, but I never knew about "A
> Middle English Vocabulary." I wonder if the Tolkien estate still
> holds the copyright or if that book can still found in rare book
> shops?

You might have better luck looking for Fourteenth Century Verse and
Prose ed. by K Sisam. The later editions (I think the lastest was 1967)
include Tolkien's glossary in the back. But there were several reprints
and editions of this, so I'd be surprised if you can not find it. If
you can't, email me, I might see my way to photocopying and mailing it.



>>Though it is nice to think that people may still, while engaged in
>>research on matters medieval and Anglo-Saxon, come across the name
>>Tolkien and experience a pleasant thrill of recognition!
>
>
> Or even the name Larry Swain!

Ah, now, MC, you're gonna make me blush! Now if only I could be known
as a Tolkien scholar......
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Morgoth's Curse wrote:
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 09:20:00 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002 RemoveThis @nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Scholars (and J.R.R. Tolkien himself) have long lamented that his
>>>reputation and success as a fantasy writer overshadowed his academic
>>>achievements--notably "Beowulf" and "Sir Gawain" but also including
>>>such more obscure works as "Pearl" and "Sir Orfeo." (Others more
>>>versed in Tolkien's scholarly achievements--Wayne Hammond and Larry
>>>Swain to name just two--can provide a more complete list.)

If it provides you any ease, my Anglo-Saxon professor at univeristy
studied his Anglo-Saxon under the good JRRT.

Pete Hilton
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Stan Brown wrote:
> Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:06:18 GMT from Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002
> @nospam.yahoo.com>:
>
>>On Sat, 27 May 2006 09:20:00 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>><spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>I've been reading about his scholarly accomplishments lately (in that
>>>book - /The Ring of Words/), and they are actually rather impressive,
>>>though you do have to remember that Tolkien's career did develop in the
>>>vacuum left after many of his generation died in the First World War -
>>>more opportunities, but I don't doubt Tolkien would still have had an
>>>impressive career.
>
>
> Somehow I overlooked Christopher's original, so I'm responding to the
> quoted version
>
> In terms of *teaching* accomplishments (as distinguished from
> scholarly research), I think he was pretty amazing. Getting a whole
> bunch of college students at U of Leeds to speak and read Anglo-Saxon
> for the sheer joy of it could only be done by a dedicated and
> inspirational teacher.
>

I've heard various things about his teaching. I think some of it may
have depended on the context (in his rooms, or in a seminar sort of
setting, and in a lecture); but one of the things that comes through is
that a) he was fascinating and would often go off on tangents about, you
guessed it, words tracing a specific word's history before returning to
the text at hand (once at least taking an entire term to do the first
250 lines of a not quite 600 line poem!). The other thing I've heard
though is that he mumbled horribly and one had to work to follow him and
understand what he was saying.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0500, Larry Swain (theswain@operamail.com)
said:

> I've heard various things about his teaching. I think some of it may
> have depended on the context (in his rooms, or in a seminar sort of
> setting, and in a lecture); but one of the things that comes through is
> that a) he was fascinating and would often go off on tangents about, you
> guessed it, words tracing a specific word's history before returning to
> the text at hand (once at least taking an entire term to do the first
> 250 lines of a not quite 600 line poem!). The other thing I've heard
> though is that he mumbled horribly and one had to work to follow him and
> understand what he was saying.

Was it C. S. Lewis who said that Tolkien was "an inspired speaker of
footnotes"? It rather nicely sums up your first point.
--
Matthew
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Matthew Bladen wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0500, Larry Swain (theswain@operamail.com)
> said:
>
> > I've heard various things about his teaching. I think some of it may
> > have depended on the context (in his rooms, or in a seminar sort of
> > setting, and in a lecture); but one of the things that comes through is
> > that a) he was fascinating and would often go off on tangents about, you
> > guessed it, words tracing a specific word's history before returning to
> > the text at hand (once at least taking an entire term to do the first
> > 250 lines of a not quite 600 line poem!). The other thing I've heard
> > though is that he mumbled horribly and one had to work to follow him and
> > understand what he was saying.
>
> Was it C. S. Lewis who said that Tolkien was "an inspired speaker of
> footnotes"? It rather nicely sums up your first point.

i'm vaguely reminded of the fact that Smith of Wooton Major started out
as a preface. he started writing an allegory of the history of
fairy-tales, but got sidetracked. rather weird.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

> In terms of *teaching* accomplishments (as distinguished from
> scholarly research), I think he was pretty amazing.

I've recently found a fascinating essasy by Tom Shippey called
"Tolkien's Academic Reputation Now" (now being 1989) - which should
neatly address the "scholarly research" bit you mentioned.

[I know, I know, you were changing the subject to his teaching style and
ability, but I thought this was as good a place as any to jump in and
change the topic back again! I did love the quote about Tolkien
talking in footnotes - I think I saw that again recently when reading
Carpenter's 'The Inklings' biography - really interesting read.]

Anyway, to get back to Shippey's essay: "Tolkien's Academic Reputation
Now". It was published in November 1989 in Amon Hen 100, the hundredth
issue of Amon Hen, the bulletin of the Tolkien Society (Amon Hen is
coming up to issue 200 this month!), and later reprinted in "The Best of
Amon Hen - Part Two" (edited by Andrew Wells and published in 2002). Not
sure if the essay was ever published anywhere else as well.

The article is well worth reading in full (like anything by Shippey). He
starts by recalling the Inspector from 'Leaf by Niggle', which could be
seen as representing pressure in academia to publish papers. Shippey
then uses the Primary and Secondary Citations system to look at
Tolkien's academic output, which he lists as 25 items (including three
posthumous works).

The relevant bits for this thread is that some of Tolkien's works were
widely cited by other people, but some disappeared into obscurity. Some,
like the "Middle English Vocabulary", became standard works and were
used (and still are?) by students for many years afterwards. Shippey
speculates that Tolkien's edition of 'Sir Gawain', in one form or
another, must have received thousands of citations over the years. "On
Fairy Stories" has also been widely cited, this time because of its
relevance to his works of fiction.

Shippey then identifies three works by Tolkien that "rocked the
collective jaw of academe right back on its spine" - the Ancrene Wisse
essay (on problems with dialects), the Monsters and the Critics (his
Beowulf essay), and the Homecoming of Beorhthnoth (the poem was
accompanied by essays discussing the Battle of Maldon).

Shippey then discusses the impact (then) and relevance now (in 1989) of
these works. He also laments that some of the other works might have had
a similar impact, but were not understood at the time, and that Tolkien
didn't push as hard as he could have done to get the issues debated when
he published them.

Now, that essay was written in 1989. I wonder how much things have
changed in the 17 years since then. What do scholars think of Tolkien's
work today?

Christopher

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> In terms of *teaching* accomplishments (as distinguished from
>> scholarly research), I think he was pretty amazing.
>
> I've recently found a fascinating essasy by Tom Shippey called
> "Tolkien's Academic Reputation Now" (now being 1989) - which should
> neatly address the "scholarly research" bit you mentioned.
> [I know, I know, you were changing the subject to his teaching style
> and ability, but I thought this was as good a place as any to jump in
> and change the topic back again! I did love the quote about
> Tolkien talking in footnotes - I think I saw that again recently when
> reading Carpenter's 'The Inklings' biography - really interesting
> read.]

There's also a quote from CJRT to the effect that his father often drove
forward a topic by means of two, three or more interlocking, lengthy
footnotes. It's one of the things I love about reading Tolkien, the
sense that there's just too much to say, too many stories to fit into
one narrative thread. It seems that The Old Man lectured, thought, and
wrote as an 'inspired speaker of footnotes'. No doubt why it became such
an overwhelming task to 'niggle the details' into coherence with each
other!

- Ciaran S.
------------------------------------------------------
"I'm not lurking! I'm hanging about. It's a whole 'nother vibe."
- BtVS
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition 

Stan Brown wrote:
> Mon, 3 Jul 2006 20:02:48 -0400 from Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm>:
>> I said "as distinguished from his scholarly research" because I don't
>> have a good feel for how that was evaluated.
>
> But thanks to Christopher's article I now have a better feel than I
> did.

As a footnote?
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Question about 50th anniversary edition