ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:08:36 +0000, Stephen Kane <none DeleteThis @none.com>
wrote:

 >I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
 >perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
 >social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
 >possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
 >mind?

There's been occasional talk on some book groups I'm on about Eustacia
Benson in the Chalet School stories possibly having AS traits,
although her "transformation" doesn't fit at all well with what I know
of AS. Beyond that, there is virtually nothing - I have AS myself, so
have an interest in it, but all the people on the (large) Girlsown
mailing list couldn't come up with anything as far as I'm aware, even
after the subject came up twice over the past couple of years.

I'm considering writing a fanfic myself where a character with AS
joins the Chalet School, but at the moment it's all in my head, and
none of it on paper, so I get the feeling it'll end up like most of my
projects and never even get started, much less finished <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

In article <BC55C894.11E70%none@none.com>, Stephen Kane <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote:

 >It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
 >characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
 >written this up?

Not exactly relevent, but I was just thinking you could make an
interesting case for Anya of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" as having
Aspbergers.

 >I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
 >perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
 >social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
 >possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
 >mind?

There's a children's book about a changling who would clearly be diagnosed
as having something like Down Syndrome today... um... The Half Child?
And of course, the changling story that won a Newbery honor a while
back could be interpreted very differently. Bleh, can't remember
anything tonight.
--
"I couldn't believe this was a book. It didn't even give me a
headache." -- Chris Crutcher on _To Kill a Mockingbird_
latest issue: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.windowsill.net/vol12.no1.html" target="_blank">www.windowsill.net/vol12.no1.html</a>
book blog: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.xanga.com/windowsill" target="_blank">www.xanga.com/windowsill</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

In article <40303145$0$438$8eec23a@newsreader.tycho.net>,
web.DeleteThis@deeptht.armory.com (Wendy E. Betts) wrote:

 > In article <BC55C894.11E70%none@none.com>, Stephen Kane <none.DeleteThis@none.com>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
  > >perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
  > >social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
  > >possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
  > >mind?
 >
 > There's a children's book about a changling who would clearly be diagnosed
 > as having something like Down Syndrome today... um... The Half Child?
 > And of course, the changling story that won a Newbery honor a while
 > back could be interpreted very differently. Bleh, can't remember
 > anything tonight.

Could you be thinking of "The Moorchild" by the late Eloise Jarvis
McGraw? It was a Newbery Honor book, and everything else seems to fit...

--Eric Gjovaag, Eloise McGraw fan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

 >
 >It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
 >characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
 >written this up?

Don't know, offhand.

In the cover story on autism in Newsweek, months ago, the author of "The
Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" said that if he'd had his way,
the word "autism" wouldn't appear on the jacket or anywhere in the book at all,
because while the narrator is in fact autistic, the author would have preferred
to make it more ambiguous and thus reintroduce the non-label "odd" to society.
I've read it and it IS fascinating. There are nearly 200 reviews at Amazon -
most are glowing - and here's the professional Amazon critic's review:

"Mark Haddon's bitterly funny debut novel, The Curious Incident of the Dog in
the Night-Time, is a murder mystery of sorts--one told by an autistic version
of Adrian Mole. Fifteen-year-old Christopher John Francis Boone is
mathematically gifted and socially hopeless, raised in a working-class home by
parents who can barely cope with their child's quirks. He takes everything that
he sees (or is told) at face value, and is unable to sort out the strange
behavior of his elders and peers.

"Late one night, Christopher comes across his neighbor's poodle, Wellington,
impaled on a garden fork. Wellington's owner finds him cradling her dead dog in
his arms, and has him arrested. After spending a night in jail, Christopher
resolves--against the objection of his father and neighbors--to discover just
who has murdered Wellington. He is encouraged by Siobhan, a social worker at
his school, to write a book about his investigations, and the result--quirkily
illustrated, with each chapter given its own prime number--is The Curious
Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time.

"Haddon's novel is a startling performance. This is the sort of book that could
turn condescending, or exploitative, or overly sentimental, or grossly
tasteless very easily, but Haddon navigates those dangers with a sureness of
touch that is extremely rare among first-time novelists. The Curious Incident
of the Dog in the Night-Time is original, clever, and genuinely moving: this
one is a must-read."


 >Further thought suggests for example Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn,

Columnist Alex Beam (who described reading TS with his son as "pure
enchantment") wrote one of his satirical columns on how nowadays, Tom Sawyer
would get pumped with Ritalin or sent to jail just for acting like a normal boy
- that is, smoking, being mean to animals, playing hooky, etc. He quoted Twain
as saying that one reason he didn't write about Tom as an adult is he couldn't
see Tom as becoming anything but a normal, boring man, eventually. That
prompted a letter from a mother of three ADD sons. She said she has every
reason to use Ritalin, since her sons won't even sit still to listen to "Tom
Sawyer" when she tried to read it to them. More importantly, as she said, "it
was not a big deal to do just OK in school in 1840s riverbank Missouri. Not so
today in our high-tech society." She might have added that today, there's more
than one good reason the law takes seriously those who hurt animals -
especially young people who do.

 >I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
 >perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
 >social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour).

 >Stephen.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Lenona.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Catriona,
Could you possibly e-mail me off the forum? I wanted to ask you
something that isn't "on topic", but when I clicked on your e-mail
link, the mail I sent was returned!
My address is DarcyJ76.RemoveThis@aol.com, if you don't mind!

Thanks!
Darcy


Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM.RemoveThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message news:<i7b030dd68aa77sq495698qbj06h6dkmp0.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
 > On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:08:36 +0000, Stephen Kane <none.RemoveThis@none.com>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
  > >perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
  > >social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
  > >possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
  > >mind?
 >
 > There's been occasional talk on some book groups I'm on about Eustacia
 > Benson in the Chalet School stories possibly having AS traits,
 > although her "transformation" doesn't fit at all well with what I know
 > of AS. Beyond that, there is virtually nothing - I have AS myself, so
 > have an interest in it, but all the people on the (large) Girlsown
 > mailing list couldn't come up with anything as far as I'm aware, even
 > after the subject came up twice over the past couple of years.
 >
 > I'm considering writing a fanfic myself where a character with AS
 > joins the Chalet School, but at the moment it's all in my head, and
 > none of it on paper, so I get the feeling it'll end up like most of my
 > projects and never even get started, much less finished <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

"Lenona321" <lenona321.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040216120915.14339.00001139@mb-m01.aol.com...
  > >
  > >It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
  > >characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone
ever
  > >written this up?
 >
 > Don't know, offhand.
 >
 > In the cover story on autism in Newsweek, months ago, the author of "The
 > Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" said that if he'd had his
way,
 > the word "autism" wouldn't appear on the jacket or anywhere in the book at
all,
 > because while the narrator is in fact autistic, the author would have
preferred
 > to make it more ambiguous and thus reintroduce the non-label "odd" to
society.
 > I've read it and it IS fascinating.

I absolutely adored this book. I have great plans to teach it, not only
because it's such a brilliant exercise in sustained POV but because it has
so many interesting corners to discuss. I love what the narrator says about
similes versus metaphors. Metaphors are lies (no one's ever actually seen a
skeleton in a closet) but similes are true (because nose hairs DO look like
a mouse up someone's nose)...
It's also heartbreaking in a way if you know anyone with an autistic child,
because it brings home more than anything since Donna Williams' _Nobody
Nowhere_ what it's really like to have such a condition.

Debbie<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

On 16 Feb 2004 20:52:27 -0800, DarcyJ76.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Darcy) wrote:

 >Catriona,
 >Could you possibly e-mail me off the forum? I wanted to ask you
 >something that isn't "on topic", but when I clicked on your e-mail
 >link, the mail I sent was returned!
 >My address is DarcyJ76.TakeThisOut@aol.com, if you don't mind!

Just remove the "nospam" from the address and it should work I'll
drop you a mail if I've not heard from you by tomorrow (uh, later
today, then... it's 5am here ).

Catriona<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

I just listened to the audio tape of The Curious Incident of the Dog at
Midnight. It gave me a lot of insight into the mind of an Asperger child that
is in my class. I liked the audio even better than reading, since the reader
spoke as the boy would in real life. The book is an adult book, but the mother
of the Asperger child is considering having Max listen too, even with the swear
words used. (Max is ten).
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Linda M. Young wrote:

 > Stephen Kane wrote:

  >> While reading The Willows In Winter it struck me that Toad (like Tigger in
  >> Winnie The Pooh) displays many of the features of ADHD (including
  >> inattention/lack of concentration, restlessness/hyperactivity and
  >> impulsivity). It reminded me of two young ADHD patients of mine, one of whom
  >> told me gravely "I have a Tigger inside me" and the other of whom commented
  >> "you won't catch me, I'm the Gingerbread Man!"
  >>
  >> It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
  >> characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
  >> written this up?
  >>
  >> Further thought suggests for example Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, William
  >> Brown (Just William) and Katy Carr (What Katy Did). Naughty children is where
  >> to start looking but we are specifically looking for children who do not mean
  >> to be naughty, but who get in trouble through being impulsive and restless.

 > Jo March, perhaps?

Couldn't find Toad, Jo March or Katy Carr in this context on a Google
search.

Plenty about the others.

William Brown:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-759069,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-759069,00.html</a>

Tom Sawyer and Pippi Longstocking:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/02-12-2001/vo17no04_ritalin_print.htm" target="_blank">http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/02-12-2001/vo17no04_ritalin_print.htm</a>

Huckleberry Finn:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787961205/102-0048564-7219378" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787961205/102-0048564-7219378</a>

Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mmaonline.net/publications/MnMed2000/June/Meyer.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.mmaonline.net/publications/MnMed2000/June/Meyer.cfm</a>

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/about_adhd.html" target="_blank">http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/about_adhd.html</a>

Tom Sawyer:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.esc20.k12.tx.us/etprojects/formats/webquests/spring2001/oconnor/j" target="_blank">http://www.esc20.k12.tx.us/etprojects/formats/webquests/spring2001/oconnor/j</a>
dfwq/

Tigger (my favourite):

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/163/12/1557" target="_blank">http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/163/12/1557</a>

Couldn't find anything else via PubMed, haven't got access to PsycLit at the
moment.

Anyone interested in helping me out on a small tongue-in-cheek research
paper? I'd need 5 or 10 volunteers, preferably academics in the field of
children's literature (Deborah? Debbie? anyone else?) to complete standard
ADHD assessment questionnaires on some of the above characters. Could be
fun!

Any takers?

Stephen.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Catriona R wrote:

 > Stephen Kane wrote:

  >> I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
  >> perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
  >> social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
  >> possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
  >> mind?

 > There's been occasional talk on some book groups I'm on about Eustacia Benson
 > in the Chalet School stories possibly having AS traits, although her
 > "transformation" doesn't fit at all well with what I know of AS. Beyond that,
 > there is virtually nothing - I have AS myself, so have an interest in it, but
 > all the people on the (large) Girlsown mailing list couldn't come up with
 > anything as far as I'm aware, even after the subject came up twice over the
 > past couple of years.
 >
 > I'm considering writing a fanfic myself where a character with AS joins the
 > Chalet School, but at the moment it's all in my head, and none of it on paper,
 > so I get the feeling it'll end up like most of my projects and never even get
 > started, much less finished

Interesting!

Perhaps a more fruitful area of search would be characters typified as "odd"
or "geeky" or "absent-minded professor-ish". Famous candidates for Asperger
Syndrome include Ramanujan, Wittgenstein and Lewis Carroll
[http://www.karnacbooks.com/author.php?AUTH=Fitzgerald%2C+Michael.].
Professor Branestawm perhaps?

Stephen.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Wendy E. Betts wrote:

 > Stephen Kane wrote:

  >> It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
  >> characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
  >> written this up?

 > Not exactly relevent, but I was just thinking you could make an interesting
 > case for Anya of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" as having Aspbergers.

  >> I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
  >> perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
  >> social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour). Any other
  >> possible references in folk/fairytales or children's literature spring to
  >> mind?

 > There's a children's book about a changling who would clearly be diagnosed as
 > having something like Down Syndrome today... um... The Half Child? And of
 > course, the changling story that won a Newbery honor a while back could be
 > interpreted very differently. Bleh, can't remember anything tonight.

Interesting, thanks!

Stephen.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Lenona321 wrote:

  >> It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
  >> characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
  >> written this up?

 > Don't know, offhand.
 >
 > In the cover story on autism in Newsweek, months ago, the author of "The
 > Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" said that if he'd had his way,
 > the word "autism" wouldn't appear on the jacket or anywhere in the book at
 > all, because while the narrator is in fact autistic, the author would have
 > preferred to make it more ambiguous and thus reintroduce the non-label "odd"
 > to society. I've read it and it IS fascinating. There are nearly 200 reviews
 > at Amazon - most are glowing - and here's the professional Amazon critic's
 > review:
 >
 > "Mark Haddon's bitterly funny debut novel, The Curious Incident of the Dog in
 > the Night-Time, is a murder mystery of sorts--one told by an autistic version
 > of Adrian Mole. Fifteen-year-old Christopher John Francis Boone is
 > mathematically gifted and socially hopeless, raised in a working-class home by
 > parents who can barely cope with their child's quirks. He takes everything
 > that he sees (or is told) at face value, and is unable to sort out the strange
 > behavior of his elders and peers.
 >
 > "Late one night, Christopher comes across his neighbor's poodle, Wellington,
 > impaled on a garden fork. Wellington's owner finds him cradling her dead dog
 > in his arms, and has him arrested. After spending a night in jail, Christopher
 > resolves--against the objection of his father and neighbors--to discover just
 > who has murdered Wellington. He is encouraged by Siobhan, a social worker at
 > his school, to write a book about his investigations, and the result--quirkily
 > illustrated, with each chapter given its own prime number--is The Curious
 > Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time.
 >
 > "Haddon's novel is a startling performance. This is the sort of book that
 > could turn condescending, or exploitative, or overly sentimental, or grossly
 > tasteless very easily, but Haddon navigates those dangers with a sureness of
 > touch that is extremely rare among first-time novelists. The Curious Incident
 > of the Dog in the Night-Time is original, clever, and genuinely moving: this
 > one is a must-read."

Been meaning to read this, but I'm looking more for characters that are
recognisably ADHD or Asperger archetypes without being consciously written
that way.

  >> Further thought suggests for example Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn,

 > Columnist Alex Beam (who described reading TS with his son as "pure
 > enchantment") wrote one of his satirical columns on how nowadays, Tom Sawyer
 > would get pumped with Ritalin or sent to jail just for acting like a normal
 > boy - that is, smoking, being mean to animals, playing hooky, etc. He quoted
 > Twain as saying that one reason he didn't write about Tom as an adult is he
 > couldn't see Tom as becoming anything but a normal, boring man, eventually.
 > That prompted a letter from a mother of three ADD sons. She said she has every
 > reason to use Ritalin, since her sons won't even sit still to listen to "Tom
 > Sawyer" when she tried to read it to them. More importantly, as she said, "it
 > was not a big deal to do just OK in school in 1840s riverbank Missouri. Not so
 > today in our high-tech society." She might have added that today, there's more
 > than one good reason the law takes seriously those who hurt animals -
 > especially young people who do.

See one of my other posts tonight.

  >> I also recently saw a reference to "the stolen child" (or changeling) as
  >> perhaps being a folk reference to Autism/Asperger Syndrome (deficits in
  >> social language/interaction and rigid/obsessional behaviour).

 > Wouldn't surprise me.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897898443/102-0048564-7219378" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897898443/102-0048564-7219378</a>

Stephen.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome 

Debbie Gascoyne wrote:

 > Lenona321 wrote:

  >> Stephen Kane wrote:

   >>> It started me wondering how many famous children's fictional or fairytale
   >>> characters might nowadays be sent for assessment for ADHD! Has anyone ever
   >>> written this up?

  >> Don't know, offhand.
  >>
  >> In the cover story on autism in Newsweek, months ago, the author of "The
  >> Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" said that if he'd had his way,
  >> the word "autism" wouldn't appear on the jacket or anywhere in the book at
  >> all, because while the narrator is in fact autistic, the author would have
  >> preferred to make it more ambiguous and thus reintroduce the non-label "odd"
  >> to society. I've read it and it IS fascinating.

 > I absolutely adored this book. I have great plans to teach it, not only
 > because it's such a brilliant exercise in sustained POV but because it has so
 > many interesting corners to discuss. I love what the narrator says about
 > similes versus metaphors. Metaphors are lies (no one's ever actually seen a
 > skeleton in a closet) but similes are true (because nose hairs DO look like a
 > mouse up someone's nose)... It's also heartbreaking in a way if you know
 > anyone with an autistic child, because it brings home more than anything since
 > Donna Williams' _Nobody Nowhere_ what it's really like to have such a
 > condition.

I'll take that as a recommendation then!

Stephen.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ADHD and Autism/Asperger Syndrome