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Adumbrations of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ in Bertrand Russell

 
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Joe Fineman

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Since: Mar 03, 2005
Posts: 42



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:35 am
Post subject: Adumbrations of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ in Bertrand Russell
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)

The following four passages were all in print at the time Orwell wrote
_Nineteen Eighty-Four_. My guess is that he had read II, but not the
others.

I

....The hopes of international peace, like the achievement of internal
peace, depend upon the creation of an effective force of public
opinion formed upon an estimate of the rights and wrongs of disputes.
Thus it would be misleading to say that the dispute is decided by
force, without adding that force is dependent upon justice. But the
possibility of such a public opinion depends upon the possibility of a
standard of justice which is a cause, not an effect, of the wishes of
the community; and such a standard of justice seems incompatible with
the pragmatist philosophy. This philosophy, therefore, although it
begins with liberty and toleration, develops, by inherent necessity,
into the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big battalions.
By this development it becomes equally adapted to democracy at home
and to imperialism abroad.... -- "Pragmatism" (1909)

II

The conception of science as a pursuit of truth has so entirely
disappeared from Hitler's mind that he does not even argue against it.
As we know, the theory of relativity has come to be thought bad
because it was invented by a Jew. The Inquisition rejected Galileo's
doctrine because it considered it untrue; but Hitler accepts or
rejects doctrines on political grounds, without bringing in the notion
of truth or falsehood. Poor William James, who invented this point of
view, would be horrified at the use which is made of it; but when once
the conception of objective truth is abandoned, it is clear that the
question 'what shall I believe?' is one to be settled, as I wrote in
1907, by 'the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big
battalions', not by the methods of either theology or science....
-- "The Ancestry of Fascism" (1933)

III

I am persuaded that there is absolutely no limit to the absurdities
that can, by government action, come to be generally believed. Give
me an adequate army, with power to provide it with more pay and better
food than falls to the lot of the average man, and I will undertake,
within 30 years, to make the majority of the population believe that
two and two are three, that water freezes when it gets hot and boils
when it gets cold, or any other nonsense that might seem to serve the
interest of the state. Of course, even when these beliefs had been
generated, people would not put the kettle in the refrigerator when
they wanted it to boil. That cold makes water boil would be a Sunday
truth, sacred and mystical, to be professed in awed tones, but not to
be acted on in daily life. What would happen would be that any
verbal denial of the mystic doctrine would be made illegal, and
obstinate heretics would be "frozen" at the stake. No persons who did
not enthusiastically accept the official doctrine would be allowed to
teach or to have any position of power. Only the very highest
officials, in their cups, would whisper to each other what rubbish it
all is; then they would laugh and drink again....
-- "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" (1943)

IV

The main difference between Dr. Dewey and me is that he judges a
belief by its effects, whereas I judge it by its causes where a past
occurrence is concerned. I consider such a belief "true," or as
nearly "true" as we can make it, if it has a certain kind of relation
(sometimes very complicated) to its causes. Dr. Dewey holds that it
has "warranted assertability" -- which he substitutes for "truth" --
if it has certain kinds of effects. This divergence is connected with
a difference of outlook on the world. The past cannot be affected by
what we do, and therefore, if truth is determined by what has
happened, it is independent of present or future volitions; it
represents, in logical form, the limitations on human power. But if
truth, or rather "warranted assertability," depends upon the future,
then, in so far as it is in our power to alter the future, it is in
our power to alter what should be asserted. This enlarges the sense
of human power and freedom. Did Caesar cross the Rubicon? I should
regard an affimative answer as unalterably necessitated by a past
event. Dr. Dewey would decide whether to say yes or no by an
appraisal of future events, and there is no reason why these future
events could not be arranged by human power so as to make a negative
answer the more satisfactory. If I find the belief that Caesar
crossed the Rubicon very distasteful, I need not sit down in dull
despair; I can, if I have sufficient skill and power, arrange a social
environment in which the statement that he did not cross the Rubicon
will have "warranted assertability."
-- _A History of Western Philosophy_ (1945)

*

I is a poor match, as the last sentence quoted shows. II is also a
poor match, because of a peculiarity of National Socialism: It
combatted truth, not with a fancy definition, but with open cynicism.
"The broad mass of a nation will more easily fall victim to a big lie
than a small one" is not a hostile description or an esoteric maxim;
it is in _Mein Kampf_. Peter Drucker wrote in 1939:

Beginning with Hitler's frank admission in his book that lying is
necessary, Nazi leaders have prided themselves publicly on their
disregard for truth and on the impossibility of their promises --
foremost among them Dr. Goebbels. Not once but several times I
have heard him say in mass meetings when the people cheered a
particularly choice lie: "Of course, you understand all this is
just propaganda"; and the masses only cheered louder.

(I think I can imagine the mood that might lead to such depravity: Is
it a lie? Then so much the greater is the power of our bullying in
nevertheless making people cheer it.) O'Brien, in contrast, is very
much concerned with truth: "All the confessions that are uttered here
are true. We make them true." IV is a light-hearted satire on that.

III describes doublethink, but "in their cups" belongs to _Animal
Farm_ rather than _Nineteen Eighty-Four_.
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f DeleteThis @verizon.net

||: You have to know how to accept rejection and reject Neutral|
||: acceptance. Neutral|

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P.S.Burton

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Since: Aug 08, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:35 am
Post subject: Re: Adumbrations of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ in Bertrand Russell [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 17 Aug, 04:35, Joe Fineman <jo....TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote:
> The following four passages were all in print at the time Orwell wrote
> _Nineteen Eighty-Four_. My guess is that he had read II, but not the
> others.
>
> I
>
> ...The hopes of international peace, like the achievement of internal
> peace, depend upon the creation of an effective force of public
> opinion formed upon an estimate of the rights and wrongs of disputes.
> Thus it would be misleading to say that the dispute is decided by
> force, without adding that force is dependent upon justice. But the
> possibility of such a public opinion depends upon the possibility of a
> standard of justice which is a cause, not an effect, of the wishes of
> the community; and such a standard of justice seems incompatible with
> the pragmatist philosophy. This philosophy, therefore, although it
> begins with liberty and toleration, develops, by inherent necessity,
> into the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big battalions.
> By this development it becomes equally adapted to democracy at home
> and to imperialism abroad.... -- "Pragmatism" (1909)
>
> II
>
> The conception of science as a pursuit of truth has so entirely
> disappeared from Hitler's mind that he does not even argue against it.
> As we know, the theory of relativity has come to be thought bad
> because it was invented by a Jew. The Inquisition rejected Galileo's
> doctrine because it considered it untrue; but Hitler accepts or
> rejects doctrines on political grounds, without bringing in the notion
> of truth or falsehood. Poor William James, who invented this point of
> view, would be horrified at the use which is made of it; but when once
> the conception of objective truth is abandoned, it is clear that the
> question 'what shall I believe?' is one to be settled, as I wrote in
> 1907, by 'the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big
> battalions', not by the methods of either theology or science....
> -- "The Ancestry of Fascism" (1933)
>
> III
>
> I am persuaded that there is absolutely no limit to the absurdities
> that can, by government action, come to be generally believed. Give
> me an adequate army, with power to provide it with more pay and better
> food than falls to the lot of the average man, and I will undertake,
> within 30 years, to make the majority of the population believe that
> two and two are three, that water freezes when it gets hot and boils
> when it gets cold, or any other nonsense that might seem to serve the
> interest of the state. Of course, even when these beliefs had been
> generated, people would not put the kettle in the refrigerator when
> they wanted it to boil. That cold makes water boil would be a Sunday
> truth, sacred and mystical, to be professed in awed tones, but not to
> be acted on in daily life. What would happen would be that any
> verbal denial of the mystic doctrine would be made illegal, and
> obstinate heretics would be "frozen" at the stake. No persons who did
> not enthusiastically accept the official doctrine would be allowed to
> teach or to have any position of power. Only the very highest
> officials, in their cups, would whisper to each other what rubbish it
> all is; then they would laugh and drink again....
> -- "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" (1943)
>
> IV
>
> The main difference between Dr. Dewey and me is that he judges a
> belief by its effects, whereas I judge it by its causes where a past
> occurrence is concerned. I consider such a belief "true," or as
> nearly "true" as we can make it, if it has a certain kind of relation
> (sometimes very complicated) to its causes. Dr. Dewey holds that it
> has "warranted assertability" -- which he substitutes for "truth" --
> if it has certain kinds of effects. This divergence is connected with
> a difference of outlook on the world. The past cannot be affected by
> what we do, and therefore, if truth is determined by what has
> happened, it is independent of present or future volitions; it
> represents, in logical form, the limitations on human power. But if
> truth, or rather "warranted assertability," depends upon the future,
> then, in so far as it is in our power to alter the future, it is in
> our power to alter what should be asserted. This enlarges the sense
> of human power and freedom. Did Caesar cross the Rubicon? I should
> regard an affimative answer as unalterably necessitated by a past
> event. Dr. Dewey would decide whether to say yes or no by an
> appraisal of future events, and there is no reason why these future
> events could not be arranged by human power so as to make a negative
> answer the more satisfactory. If I find the belief that Caesar
> crossed the Rubicon very distasteful, I need not sit down in dull
> despair; I can, if I have sufficient skill and power, arrange a social
> environment in which the statement that he did not cross the Rubicon
> will have "warranted assertability."
> -- _A History of Western Philosophy_ (1945)
>
> *
>
> I is a poor match, as the last sentence quoted shows. II is also a
> poor match, because of a peculiarity of National Socialism: It
> combatted truth, not with a fancy definition, but with open cynicism.
> "The broad mass of a nation will more easily fall victim to a big lie
> than a small one" is not a hostile description or an esoteric maxim;
> it is in _Mein Kampf_. Peter Drucker wrote in 1939:
>
> Beginning with Hitler's frank admission in his book that lying is
> necessary, Nazi leaders have prided themselves publicly on their
> disregard for truth and on the impossibility of their promises --
> foremost among them Dr. Goebbels. Not once but several times I
> have heard him say in mass meetings when the people cheered a
> particularly choice lie: "Of course, you understand all this is
> just propaganda"; and the masses only cheered louder.
>
> (I think I can imagine the mood that might lead to such depravity: Is
> it a lie? Then so much the greater is the power of our bullying in
> nevertheless making people cheer it.) O'Brien, in contrast, is very
> much concerned with truth: "All the confessions that are uttered here
> are true. We make them true." IV is a light-hearted satire on that.
>
> III describes doublethink, but "in their cups" belongs to _Animal
> Farm_ rather than _Nineteen Eighty-Four_.
> --
> --- Joe Fineman jo....TakeThisOut@verizon.net
>
> ||: You have to know how to accept rejection and reject Neutral|
> ||: acceptance. Neutral|

judging by his correspondence and his library, orwell didn't read much
philosophy. "in their cups" is a very common expression, it just means
pissed (drunk, not angry)

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georgeorwell

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Since: Jun 05, 2007
Posts: 50



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Adumbrations of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ in Bertrand Russell [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 16 août, 21:35, Joe Fineman <jo....RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote:
> The following four passages were all in print at the time Orwell wrote
> _Nineteen Eighty-Four_. My guess is that he had read II, but not the
> others.
>
> I
>
> ...The hopes of international peace, like the achievement of internal
> peace, depend upon the creation of an effective force of public
> opinion formed upon an estimate of the rights and wrongs of disputes.
> Thus it would be misleading to say that the dispute is decided by
> force, without adding that force is dependent upon justice. But the
> possibility of such a public opinion depends upon the possibility of a
> standard of justice which is a cause, not an effect, of the wishes of
> the community; and such a standard of justice seems incompatible with
> the pragmatist philosophy. This philosophy, therefore, although it
> begins with liberty and toleration, develops, by inherent necessity,
> into the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big battalions.
> By this development it becomes equally adapted to democracy at home
> and to imperialism abroad.... -- "Pragmatism" (1909)
>
> II
>
> The conception of science as a pursuit of truth has so entirely
> disappeared from Hitler's mind that he does not even argue against it.
> As we know, the theory of relativity has come to be thought bad
> because it was invented by a Jew. The Inquisition rejected Galileo's
> doctrine because it considered it untrue; but Hitler accepts or
> rejects doctrines on political grounds, without bringing in the notion
> of truth or falsehood. Poor William James, who invented this point of
> view, would be horrified at the use which is made of it; but when once
> the conception of objective truth is abandoned, it is clear that the
> question 'what shall I believe?' is one to be settled, as I wrote in
> 1907, by 'the appeal to force and the arbitrament of the big
> battalions', not by the methods of either theology or science....
> -- "The Ancestry of Fascism" (1933)
>
> III
>
> I am persuaded that there is absolutely no limit to the absurdities
> that can, by government action, come to be generally believed. Give
> me an adequate army, with power to provide it with more pay and better
> food than falls to the lot of the average man, and I will undertake,
> within 30 years, to make the majority of the population believe that
> two and two are three, that water freezes when it gets hot and boils
> when it gets cold, or any other nonsense that might seem to serve the
> interest of the state. Of course, even when these beliefs had been
> generated, people would not put the kettle in the refrigerator when
> they wanted it to boil. That cold makes water boil would be a Sunday
> truth, sacred and mystical, to be professed in awed tones, but not to
> be acted on in daily life. What would happen would be that any
> verbal denial of the mystic doctrine would be made illegal, and
> obstinate heretics would be "frozen" at the stake. No persons who did
> not enthusiastically accept the official doctrine would be allowed to
> teach or to have any position of power. Only the very highest
> officials, in their cups, would whisper to each other what rubbish it
> all is; then they would laugh and drink again....
> -- "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" (1943)
>
> IV
>
> The main difference between Dr. Dewey and me is that he judges a
> belief by its effects, whereas I judge it by its causes where a past
> occurrence is concerned. I consider such a belief "true," or as
> nearly "true" as we can make it, if it has a certain kind of relation
> (sometimes very complicated) to its causes. Dr. Dewey holds that it
> has "warranted assertability" -- which he substitutes for "truth" --
> if it has certain kinds of effects. This divergence is connected with
> a difference of outlook on the world. The past cannot be affected by
> what we do, and therefore, if truth is determined by what has
> happened, it is independent of present or future volitions; it
> represents, in logical form, the limitations on human power. But if
> truth, or rather "warranted assertability," depends upon the future,
> then, in so far as it is in our power to alter the future, it is in
> our power to alter what should be asserted. This enlarges the sense
> of human power and freedom. Did Caesar cross the Rubicon? I should
> regard an affimative answer as unalterably necessitated by a past
> event. Dr. Dewey would decide whether to say yes or no by an
> appraisal of future events, and there is no reason why these future
> events could not be arranged by human power so as to make a negative
> answer the more satisfactory. If I find the belief that Caesar
> crossed the Rubicon very distasteful, I need not sit down in dull
> despair; I can, if I have sufficient skill and power, arrange a social
> environment in which the statement that he did not cross the Rubicon
> will have "warranted assertability."
> -- _A History of Western Philosophy_ (1945)
>
> *
>
> I is a poor match, as the last sentence quoted shows. II is also a
> poor match, because of a peculiarity of National Socialism: It
> combatted truth, not with a fancy definition, but with open cynicism.
> "The broad mass of a nation will more easily fall victim to a big lie
> than a small one" is not a hostile description or an esoteric maxim;
> it is in _Mein Kampf_. Peter Drucker wrote in 1939:
>
> Beginning with Hitler's frank admission in his book that lying is
> necessary, Nazi leaders have prided themselves publicly on their
> disregard for truth and on the impossibility of their promises --
> foremost among them Dr. Goebbels. Not once but several times I
> have heard him say in mass meetings when the people cheered a
> particularly choice lie: "Of course, you understand all this is
> just propaganda"; and the masses only cheered louder.
>
> (I think I can imagine the mood that might lead to such depravity: Is
> it a lie? Then so much the greater is the power of our bullying in
> nevertheless making people cheer it.) O'Brien, in contrast, is very
> much concerned with truth: "All the confessions that are uttered here
> are true. We make them true." IV is a light-hearted satire on that.
>
> III describes doublethink, but "in their cups" belongs to _Animal
> Farm_ rather than _Nineteen Eighty-Four_.
> --
> --- Joe Fineman jo....RemoveThis@verizon.net
>
> ||: You have to know how to accept rejection and reject Neutral|
> ||: acceptance. Neutral|

I browsed through the several references on Russell in the CWGO, and
the relationship between Orwell and Russell teeters between "Mr.
Russell is one of the most readable of living writers" (1939), to
"tried and failed" (to read Russell's *Human Knowledge, Its Scope &
Limits* in 1949).

As an influence, some of Orwell's dystopian ideas in 1984 could have
been inspired by his reading of Russell. For hints of this, here's a
couple of examples:

'The whole problem of Utopian aims, and their tendency to end in
tyranny, is discussed by Bertrand Russell in a number of books,
particularly "The Scientific Outlook," "Freedom and Organisation," and
"Power: a New Analysis." Russell had held very different political
views at different periods of his life, but his vision of the future
has been almost uniformly pessimistic, and he is inclined to think
that liberty and efficiency are of their nature incompatible.' (The
Intellectual Revolt, 24 January 1946)

"It is quite possible that we are descending into an age in which two
and two will make five when the Leader says so. Mr. Russell points out
that the huge system of organized lying upon which the dictators
depend keeps their followers out of contact with reality and therefore
tends to put them at a disadvantage as against those who know the
facts." (Orwell's review of *Power: A New Social Analysis*, 1939)

B.
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Joe Fineman

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Since: Mar 03, 2005
Posts: 42



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:42 am
Post subject: Re: Adumbrations of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ in Bertrand Russell [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"P.S.Burton" <dlbits.DeleteThis@gmail.com> writes:

> On 17 Aug, 04:35, Joe Fineman <jo....DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote:

>> III describes doublethink, but "in their cups" belongs to _Animal
>> Farm_ rather than _Nineteen Eighty-Four_.
>
> judging by his correspondence and his library, orwell didn't read much
> philosophy.

Right. I thought "The Ancestry of Fascism" was the most likely of the
four for him to have read.

> "in their cups" is a very common expression, it just means
> pissed (drunk, not angry)

I know. I was alluding to Russell's use of it:

>> Only the very highest officials, in their cups, would whisper to
>> each other what rubbish it all is; then they would laugh and drink
>> again....

That is reminiscent of some scenes near the end of _Animal Farm_, but
not of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_, where the inner party is described as
taking Ingsoc more seriously than anyone else.
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f.DeleteThis@verizon.net

||: Punctuality is minute honor. Neutral|
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