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Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood

 
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Since: Aug 10, 2003
Posts: 90



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:28 pm
Post subject: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books (more info?)

Very Good indeed, a great read I thought - I couldn't put it down.
Enigmatic, yet clever and touching all at the same time with a touch of wry
humour.This is the best Atwood I have read up to now - Blind Assassin &
Handmaids Tale being the other two. Based on a true story Atwood has drawn
from it a tale that is never dry but grips the reader - there is a type of
"Whodunnit" running through the novel.

A brief synopsis with mild spoilers

Alias Grace is based on a true story of a double murder in 19th century
Canada. Grace Marks is a young girl, an Irish immigrant who, leaving her
violent drunkard father ends up as a housemaid in a large house. After many
adventures, well told in the narrative she ends up in a house far out in the
country where there is an illicit relationship going on between the
housekeeper and the master of the house. It ends in tragedy with the master
and housekeeper murdered and Grace and a stable hand fleeing the scene. They
are caught inevitably and the Stable hand is hanged - Grace is given life in
prison but her guilt is never really established - this is the thrust of the
story - Grace as Victim or Weak child under the influence of an evil man.

Much of Graces story is told as flashback to a Doctor of Psychology who
visits her as she works in the Prison Governors house. The story of her
early life and the dreadful voyage to Canada on those early 19th century
immigrant sailing ships is told in beautiful expansive detail all seen
through the eyes of Grace as a young child. Her early life as a housemaid is
told in exquisite yet heartrending detail , her friendship with the older
and wiser Mary Whitney figures highly and adds much to the story both then
and later in the story. I love the historical detail , the description of
life "below stairs" and the general description of Canada. This makes one
feel so much for Grace; there is much to read between the lines as she tries
to understand the world around her.

Doctor Jordan the Psychiatrist who interviews her has a story of his own
running in parallel with the main narrative and there is much humour here -
I found some of the descriptions of his surly maid and the awful cooking
laugh out loud funny which helped a lot with some of Graces story being so
dark. The 19th century approach to Prison, Asylum and the idea of
psychoanalysing prisoners - mad or bad etc is excellently approached and it
never slows the story.

This is based on a true story but one thing is clear there is an ambiguity
as to whether Grace was guilty of murder or not. Her traumatic experiences
of death and abuse had left her mentally scarred but whether she was "mad or
bad" was never established at the time. Without giving too much away I feel
that Grace may have been slightly schizophrenic or at least displayed some
signs of schizophrenia. There is much in the story of Grace and the murders
to lead the reader in many directions.

This is surprisingly light to read and the 550 pages don't seem long
enough - no one should be put off by the historical aspect to the story as
this is never an impediment to the story, it actually gives it a wonderful
reality aspect to the story. Atwood skilfully handles many issues raised
here about the role of "the lower orders" as the phrase goes and the
relationship of class to women in the 19th century .All in all a brilliant
work and one I would recommend to those who may have been put off by
Handmaids Tale - the clear cut yet enigmatic story replaces the many doubts
in Handmaids Tale. I have read criticism that the ending is weak , but as it
is a historical based novel a large ending would I feel have been
inappropriate. The novel has much to commend it - entered for the 1996
Booker it lost to Last Orders - short listed with it was Everyman for
Himself by Beryl Bainbridge , that won the Whitbread prize. In my opinion
this is better than either of these though this is a personal judgement.

A good read - get it now!!

 >> Stay informed about: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood 
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herothatdied1

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Since: May 24, 2004
Posts: 205



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"notme" <never RemoveThis @here.ok> wrote in message
news:c92jpe$97f$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
 > Very Good indeed, a great read I thought - I couldn't put it down.
 > Enigmatic, yet clever and touching all at the same time with a touch of
wry
 > humour.This is the best Atwood I have read up to now - Blind Assassin &
 > Handmaids Tale being the other two. Based on a true story Atwood has drawn
 > from it a tale that is never dry but grips the reader - there is a type of
 > "Whodunnit" running through the novel.
 >
 > A brief synopsis with mild spoilers
 >
 > Alias Grace is based on a true story of a double murder in 19th century
 > Canada. Grace Marks is a young girl, an Irish immigrant who, leaving her
 > violent drunkard father ends up as a housemaid in a large house. After
many
 > adventures, well told in the narrative she ends up in a house far out in
the
 > country where there is an illicit relationship going on between the
 > housekeeper and the master of the house. It ends in tragedy with the
master
 > and housekeeper murdered and Grace and a stable hand fleeing the scene.
They
 > are caught inevitably and the Stable hand is hanged - Grace is given life
in
 > prison but her guilt is never really established - this is the thrust of
the
 > story - Grace as Victim or Weak child under the influence of an evil man.
 >
 > Much of Graces story is told as flashback to a Doctor of Psychology who
 > visits her as she works in the Prison Governors house. The story of her
 > early life and the dreadful voyage to Canada on those early 19th century
 > immigrant sailing ships is told in beautiful expansive detail all seen
 > through the eyes of Grace as a young child. Her early life as a housemaid
is
 > told in exquisite yet heartrending detail , her friendship with the older
 > and wiser Mary Whitney figures highly and adds much to the story both then
 > and later in the story. I love the historical detail , the description of
 > life "below stairs" and the general description of Canada. This makes one
 > feel so much for Grace; there is much to read between the lines as she
tries
 > to understand the world around her.
 >
 > Doctor Jordan the Psychiatrist who interviews her has a story of his own
 > running in parallel with the main narrative and there is much humour
here -
 > I found some of the descriptions of his surly maid and the awful cooking
 > laugh out loud funny which helped a lot with some of Graces story being so
 > dark. The 19th century approach to Prison, Asylum and the idea of
 > psychoanalysing prisoners - mad or bad etc is excellently approached and
it
 > never slows the story.
 >
 > This is based on a true story but one thing is clear there is an ambiguity
 > as to whether Grace was guilty of murder or not. Her traumatic experiences
 > of death and abuse had left her mentally scarred but whether she was "mad
or
 > bad" was never established at the time. Without giving too much away I
feel
 > that Grace may have been slightly schizophrenic or at least displayed some
 > signs of schizophrenia. There is much in the story of Grace and the
murders
 > to lead the reader in many directions.
 >
 > This is surprisingly light to read and the 550 pages don't seem long
 > enough - no one should be put off by the historical aspect to the story as
 > this is never an impediment to the story, it actually gives it a wonderful
 > reality aspect to the story. Atwood skilfully handles many issues raised
 > here about the role of "the lower orders" as the phrase goes and the
 > relationship of class to women in the 19th century .All in all a brilliant
 > work and one I would recommend to those who may have been put off by
 > Handmaids Tale - the clear cut yet enigmatic story replaces the many
doubts
 > in Handmaids Tale. I have read criticism that the ending is weak , but as
it
 > is a historical based novel a large ending would I feel have been
 > inappropriate. The novel has much to commend it - entered for the 1996
 > Booker it lost to Last Orders - short listed with it was Everyman for
 > Himself by Beryl Bainbridge , that won the Whitbread prize. In my opinion
 > this is better than either of these though this is a personal judgement.
 >
 > A good read - get it now!!
 >
I'm reading it now. What do you think Atwood is doing with the shifts in
verb tense? Is she just trying to differentiate between the story's past
(Grace's tale) and her telling of it, plus Jordan's story, etc. Or does
Atwood just really like writing in the present tense (as in The Handmaid's
Tale). I thought when she used the first-person present tense in Handmaid
that Atwood was trying to emphasize Offred's captivity - the events in her
narrative are not something that can be put behind Offred, they are
immediate and therefore inescapable.

But I don't get a similar effect in Alias Grace: most of the present tense
work is being done with Jordan. And, as much as the women around Jordan all
want to trap him one way or another, he is still the freer of the two
principle subjects of the narrative. What gives?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood 
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never

External


Since: Aug 10, 2003
Posts: 90



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"htd" <herothatdied DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yu6tc.14712$o97.1271@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
 >
 > "notme" <never DeleteThis @here.ok> wrote in message
 > news:c92jpe$97f$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
  > > Very Good indeed, a great read I thought - I couldn't put it down.
  > > Enigmatic, yet clever and touching all at the same time with a touch of
 > wry
  > > humour.This is the best Atwood I have read up to now - Blind Assassin &
  > > Handmaids Tale being the other two. Based on a true story Atwood has
drawn
  > > from it a tale that is never dry but grips the reader - there is a type
of
  > > "Whodunnit" running through the novel.
  > >
  > > A brief synopsis with mild spoilers
  > >
  > > Alias Grace is based on a true story of a double murder in 19th century
  > > Canada. Grace Marks is a young girl, an Irish immigrant who, leaving her
  > > violent drunkard father ends up as a housemaid in a large house. After
 > many
  > > adventures, well told in the narrative she ends up in a house far out in
 > the
  > > country where there is an illicit relationship going on between the
  > > housekeeper and the master of the house. It ends in tragedy with the
 > master
  > > and housekeeper murdered and Grace and a stable hand fleeing the scene.
 > They
  > > are caught inevitably and the Stable hand is hanged - Grace is given
life
 > in
  > > prison but her guilt is never really established - this is the thrust of
 > the
  > > story - Grace as Victim or Weak child under the influence of an evil
man.
  > >
  > > Much of Graces story is told as flashback to a Doctor of Psychology who
  > > visits her as she works in the Prison Governors house. The story of her
  > > early life and the dreadful voyage to Canada on those early 19th century
  > > immigrant sailing ships is told in beautiful expansive detail all seen
  > > through the eyes of Grace as a young child. Her early life as a
housemaid
 > is
  > > told in exquisite yet heartrending detail , her friendship with the
older
  > > and wiser Mary Whitney figures highly and adds much to the story both
then
  > > and later in the story. I love the historical detail , the description
of
  > > life "below stairs" and the general description of Canada. This makes
one
  > > feel so much for Grace; there is much to read between the lines as she
 > tries
  > > to understand the world around her.
  > >
  > > Doctor Jordan the Psychiatrist who interviews her has a story of his own
  > > running in parallel with the main narrative and there is much humour
 > here -
  > > I found some of the descriptions of his surly maid and the awful cooking
  > > laugh out loud funny which helped a lot with some of Graces story being
so
  > > dark. The 19th century approach to Prison, Asylum and the idea of
  > > psychoanalysing prisoners - mad or bad etc is excellently approached and
 > it
  > > never slows the story.
  > >
  > > This is based on a true story but one thing is clear there is an
ambiguity
  > > as to whether Grace was guilty of murder or not. Her traumatic
experiences
  > > of death and abuse had left her mentally scarred but whether she was
"mad
 > or
  > > bad" was never established at the time. Without giving too much away I
 > feel
  > > that Grace may have been slightly schizophrenic or at least displayed
some
  > > signs of schizophrenia. There is much in the story of Grace and the
 > murders
  > > to lead the reader in many directions.
  > >
  > > This is surprisingly light to read and the 550 pages don't seem long
  > > enough - no one should be put off by the historical aspect to the story
as
  > > this is never an impediment to the story, it actually gives it a
wonderful
  > > reality aspect to the story. Atwood skilfully handles many issues raised
  > > here about the role of "the lower orders" as the phrase goes and the
  > > relationship of class to women in the 19th century .All in all a
brilliant
  > > work and one I would recommend to those who may have been put off by
  > > Handmaids Tale - the clear cut yet enigmatic story replaces the many
 > doubts
  > > in Handmaids Tale. I have read criticism that the ending is weak , but
as
 > it
  > > is a historical based novel a large ending would I feel have been
  > > inappropriate. The novel has much to commend it - entered for the 1996
  > > Booker it lost to Last Orders - short listed with it was Everyman for
  > > Himself by Beryl Bainbridge , that won the Whitbread prize. In my
opinion
  > > this is better than either of these though this is a personal judgement.
  > >
  > > A good read - get it now!!
  > >
 > I'm reading it now. What do you think Atwood is doing with the shifts in
 > verb tense? Is she just trying to differentiate between the story's past
 > (Grace's tale) and her telling of it, plus Jordan's story, etc. Or does
 > Atwood just really like writing in the present tense (as in The Handmaid's
 > Tale). I thought when she used the first-person present tense in Handmaid
 > that Atwood was trying to emphasize Offred's captivity - the events in
her
 > narrative are not something that can be put behind Offred, they are
 > immediate and therefore inescapable.
 >
 > But I don't get a similar effect in Alias Grace: most of the present tense
 > work is being done with Jordan. And, as much as the women around Jordan
all
 > want to trap him one way or another, he is still the freer of the two
 > principle subjects of the narrative. What gives?
 >
Using the shift in tense to give Graces story gives us a greater feel for
Grace and the hardships that led her to the point she was with Dr Jordan. It
also fuels the ambiguity about Graces guilt or her mental state - so that at
the end we aren't quite sure as to her guilt or innocence , which isn't
known anyhow as its a true story. It allows Atwood to free the character
from just giving a dry account of the story. It's good ploy by Atwood to
allow the Grace character to develop free from the restraint of past and
present. All in all its a very well written and paced book - but the
question is did she do it? - from the reading of it I think she had a form
of schizophrenia and was unaware of her alter ego but who knows.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood 
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herothatdied1

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Since: May 24, 2004
Posts: 205



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: Alias Grace SPOILER [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"notme" <never.TakeThisOut@here.ok> wrote in message
news:c946ss$poe$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
  > >
 > Using the shift in tense to give Graces story gives us a greater feel for
 > Grace and the hardships that led her to the point she was with Dr Jordan.
It

I disagree. Certainly, the drifting tenses separate Grace's past from her
present, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been more effective (and more
interesting) to switch and tell the story of Grace's life leading up to the
murders in the present tense and use the past tense for the narrative of
drawing that story out of her.

What other of Atwood's novels use present tense narratives? Handmaid,
certainly, but I've only read that and Robber Bride, and I don't remember
what she did with the verb tense in Robber Bride (which I honestly thought
quite a snore). I noticed elements of Grace's voice when she is giving a
first-person present tense account of events where the rhythm of her speech
and the way that she notices her environment that could have been switched
out wholesale with passages of Offred.

Besides, I thought that Atwood was largely downplaying Grace's hardships
(excepting those involving nineteenth century sexual politics, which become
more and more prominent as the book progresses, and which are not terribly
insightful).

 > also fuels the ambiguity about Graces guilt or her mental state - so that
at
 > the end we aren't quite sure as to her guilt or innocence , which isn't
 > known anyhow as its a true story.

All right, I'll buy that. Third-person present tense narrative does create
a sort of truthfulness: the reader has a God's eye view of events as they
happen, not as they are interpreted as having happened. Grace's story is
more dubious because our awareness that it is a retelling of events is
heightened by the contrast of her first-person-past perspective with the
third-person-present of most of the rest of the book. But whatever shall we
do with Grace's first-person-present-tense narratives?

 > It allows Atwood to free the character
 > from just giving a dry account of the story. It's good ploy by Atwood to
 > allow the Grace character to develop free from the restraint of past and
 > present.

That I don't buy at all.

 > All in all its a very well written and paced book - but the
 > question is did she do it? - from the reading of it I think she had a form
 > of schizophrenia and was unaware of her alter ego but who knows.
 >
That's the least interesting thing about the entire book to me. I thought
that Atwood was working hard to exhonorate Grace throughout, and when she
tried to resolve the mystery and the plot and the contradictions in all the
testimony and histories by suggesting that Grace had a split personality, I
must say it dropped the book a peg or two in my estimation. In the end, the
sexual double standard was to blame for all, every woman was a victim of it,
most of the men were unhappy with it too... over and over again citing the
sexual appeal of imprisoned women (whether in hoopskirts, ankle chains,
actual jail, etc...) If Atwood ever finds out there was such a thing as a
hobble skirt, you'd better believe it's going to show up in whatever her
next novel is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood 
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never

External


Since: Aug 10, 2003
Posts: 90



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Alias Grace SPOILER [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"htd" <herothatdied.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J5ttc.18225$o97.15338@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
 >
 > "notme" <never.RemoveThis@here.ok> wrote in message
 > news:c946ss$poe$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
   > > >
  > > Using the shift in tense to give Graces story gives us a greater feel
for
  > > Grace and the hardships that led her to the point she was with Dr
Jordan.
 > It
 >
 > I disagree. Certainly, the drifting tenses separate Grace's past from her
 > present, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been more effective (and more
 > interesting) to switch and tell the story of Grace's life leading up to
the
 > murders in the present tense and use the past tense for the narrative of
 > drawing that story out of her.
 >
 > What other of Atwood's novels use present tense narratives? Handmaid,
 > certainly, but I've only read that and Robber Bride, and I don't remember
 > what she did with the verb tense in Robber Bride (which I honestly thought
 > quite a snore). I noticed elements of Grace's voice when she is giving a
 > first-person present tense account of events where the rhythm of her
speech
 > and the way that she notices her environment that could have been switched
 > out wholesale with passages of Offred.
 >
 > Besides, I thought that Atwood was largely downplaying Grace's hardships
 > (excepting those involving nineteenth century sexual politics, which
become
 > more and more prominent as the book progresses, and which are not terribly
 > insightful).
 >
By using the true story as a basis for her novel Atwood probably denied
herself artistic license, I doubt the novel would have worked if Graces
story hadn't been told as it was. In Handmaids Tale I don't think it worked
as well as it could have but I though HT was rushed - it needed padding out
, more explanation , more filling out of the characters.Ive only read
Assassin, Grace and Handmaid - I have cats eye and surfacing on the shelf.
Robber Bride has been recommended though many have expressed doubt as to the
quality of her earlier work as they say her feminist politics get in the
way. In my opinion I think it may add to her work - given the sterilty of
some writers at least she has something to "say". Though it should be said
that this shouldn't get in the way of plot/narrative/character etc.


  > > also fuels the ambiguity about Graces guilt or her mental state - so
that
 > at
  > > the end we aren't quite sure as to her guilt or innocence , which isn't
  > > known anyhow as its a true story.
 >
 > All right, I'll buy that. Third-person present tense narrative does
create
 > a sort of truthfulness: the reader has a God's eye view of events as they
 > happen, not as they are interpreted as having happened. Grace's story is
 > more dubious because our awareness that it is a retelling of events is
 > heightened by the contrast of her first-person-past perspective with the
 > third-person-present of most of the rest of the book. But whatever shall
we
 > do with Grace's first-person-present-tense narratives?

I just couldn't see Alias working at all otherwise - she could have gone
first person throughout then jumped forward in time. This is a possibility ,
I have had this discussion on the BBC messageboard when I first finished the
book ( I've saved these reviews on floppy as the BBc board crashes ) it was
said there that Jordan character was pointless and he just dissappeared
anyway. Would he still have been used if it had been first person
throughout - I think yes but others disagree.

 >
  > > It allows Atwood to free the character
  > > from just giving a dry account of the story. It's good ploy by Atwood to
  > > allow the Grace character to develop free from the restraint of past
and
  > > present.
 >
 > That I don't buy at all.
 >
  > > All in all its a very well written and paced book - but the
  > > question is did she do it? - from the reading of it I think she had a
form
  > > of schizophrenia and was unaware of her alter ego but who knows.
  > >
 > That's the least interesting thing about the entire book to me. I thought
 > that Atwood was working hard to exhonorate Grace throughout, and when she
 > tried to resolve the mystery and the plot and the contradictions in all
the
 > testimony and histories by suggesting that Grace had a split personality,
I
 > must say it dropped the book a peg or two in my estimation. In the end,
the
 > sexual double standard was to blame for all, every woman was a victim of
it,
 > most of the men were unhappy with it too... over and over again citing the
 > sexual appeal of imprisoned women (whether in hoopskirts, ankle chains,
 > actual jail, etc...) If Atwood ever finds out there was such a thing as a
 > hobble skirt, you'd better believe it's going to show up in whatever her
 > next novel is.
 >
I have to agree here - but as I wrote before her politics to flavour her
writing - generally to the good. As I hunt the charity shops for her books I
will eventually read all her work and then I will be in a position to state
my opinion as to whether her politics were good or bad for her work.

I'm away for a few days over the holiday and hope to read Pat Barkers
"Regeneration " trilogy based on Sassoon's WW1 & aftermath experiences.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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