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Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience

 
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feardevil420

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Since: May 28, 2004
Posts: 65



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:10 pm
Post subject: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience
Archived from groups: alt>arts>poetry>comments, others (more info?)

The Ginsberg Experience
Tales from the
Shadow And the marriage of poetry and music
Chronicles By Allen Shadow

http://www.allenshadow.com/Pages/stories.ginsberg.html

I had seen Allen Ginsberg read a number of times — in New York City
and at the Naropa Institute in Boulder — but it was his visit to a
small college in upstate New York in 1998 that turned out to be the
"aha" moment in my writing life.

During a pre-reading discussion with students, Ginsberg began talking
about exactly the subject I was about to query him about — the
challenges of working with poetry and music.

First, a primer. When many people hear the word "poetry" associated
with music, they assume that means lyrics that are poetic in nature.
In other words, doesn't poetry per se already exist in music? Isn't it
really kind of everywhere? Isn't it in Gershwin and Stoller and James
Taylor and certainly in Dylan and Lennon? Well, yes and no. It's a
little hard to tease apart, but for writers, who have worked in both
fields, the difference begins to become more apparent.

Here are some of the differences. Poetry is generally written for the
page as well as the voice. The writer is free, especially in
free-verse form, to explore ideas without the requirement of
conforming to a set melody. He can let the muse take him to surprising
places, even, at times, the profound poetic leap. All of this, mind
you, is accomplished within the territory of the writer's voice. Yes,
the voice to a poet is not only vital — it is paramount, which brings
us to the next, and, perhaps, most pivotal point in the challenge of
marrying poetry with music.

The voice, or let's say the language itself, has a music all its own.
When you listen to a poet reading his work, you get a sense of "a
music" in his voice, in the language itself. The music inherent in the
writer's voice is essential to its overall power, as important as the
skeleton is to the body. Now, imagine the poet trying to take that
voice, complete with its own music, and somehow link it with some form
of popular music. Popular forms of music have a kind of singsong
structure that is actually fairly ornate, besides being restrictive in
meter. An analogy might help here. Try to imagine a fairly busy
painting placed in a very ornate frame. The two would probably clash,
the prominence of the frame actually distracting from the presence of
the painting. That's kind of what happens when you try to put, let's
call it, literate poetry, into the melodic framework of a popular
song. Simply put, there are two musics competing. The song music
easily becomes a distraction from the voice music of the literary
poetry.

This probably sounds like a bunch of horseshit, but it's true. I
hadn't ever read or heard anything about all this. It was only through
my experience — a poet and songwriter trying to make my "poetry voice"
work within the framework of popular song — that I discovered and,
ultimately, wrestled with this phenomenon. I documented a number of
the specific challenges and thought that I might be a little nuts in
this endeavor until the day I heard Ginsberg start to talk about it at
that college in upstate New York. Later in the afternoon, I had the
opportunity to talk privately with him about it. I was aware of his
work with blues poetry and, in recent times, with many alternative
rock bands. But to hear him talk about the challenges of really
marrying poetry with music, was both enlightening and affirming. He
outlined all of the challenges I had encountered, from the distraction
of the melody to the limitations of the meter.

"Free verse lines want to be longer than what you find with pop
music," he said. I was excited to hear all this — that Ginsberg, the
guru, was not only aware of all these special challenges but was
equally frustrated in his quest to overcome them. That experience
helped solidify my ambition in service to this quest. If it's good
enough for Ginsberg, I figured, it's good enough for me.

**** This is all okay, except: Ginsberg died in 1997...

**** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?

http://www.allenshadow.com/index.html

Anyone ever heard of him? I just ran across him wandering around the
internet... lots of great things being written about him, apparently,
including Billy Collins, who calls him "...engaging!".

"Crossroads of America" Mp3:
http://tinyurl.com/3y6l8

Crossroads of America
Words and music by Allen Shadow

Minnie Mouse gets grabassed
by a white whiskered alchy
in the leftover 50's light
of the arcades of 42nd Street
jazz Cadillacs scream in octaves
generations wait at the cosmic light

Chorus
At the crossroads
of America

The ghosts of Kerouac and Monk
waltz with the wrecker ball
they dance the runaway dream
for leave sailors and poet boys
the masterbuilder's crane is chewing
spitting out the pits of B-movie queens

The millennium bus is coming
the ball's about to fall
the mean streets of inspiration
metamorphose into a mall

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ggam77

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Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 12



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 19 Jun 2004 12:10:17 -0700, feardevil420.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
wrote:

 >**** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?

He's a talentless hack if what you've pasted below is in any way
representative of his work.

You'll never learn to write good poetry until you become capable of
recognizing good poetry.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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deltatom

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Since: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>beatgeneration (more info?)

"ggamble", remarked:
 > On 19 Jun 2004 12:10:17 -0700, feardevil420 RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
 > wrote:
 >
  > >**** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?
 >
 > He's a talentless hack if what you've pasted below is in any way
 > representative of his work.
 >
 > You'll never learn to write good poetry until you become capable of
 > recognizing good poetry.

OK, so what is /good/ ?

Surprise me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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opbop1

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Since: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 14



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>beatgeneration, others (more info?)

"Tom Bishop" <deltatom.TakeThisOut@sbc-elidethis-global.net> wrote in message news:<40d581e8$0$22003$af4e6cc9@news.usenetguide.com>...
 > "ggamble", remarked:
  > > On 19 Jun 2004 12:10:17 -0700, feardevil420.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
  > > wrote:
  > >
   > > >**** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?
  > >
  > > He's a talentless hack if what you've pasted below is in any way
  > > representative of his work.
  > >
  > > You'll never learn to write good poetry until you become capable of
  > > recognizing good poetry.
 >
 > OK, so what is /good/ ?
 >
 > Surprise me.

No real surprise, but if you ask me: Ginsberg, Corso, Kerouac, Frank
O'Hara, Rimbaud, Poe, Frost, Anne Waldman, Jim Carrol, Patti Smith,
Bukowski, Lou Reed.

Now, I've read all those, and want to expand... so, okay, *what* is
good?
Will

Will Dockery links, Results 1 - 10 of about 4,270 for "will dockery":

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/3fywk" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/3fywk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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deltatom

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Since: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:36 am
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Will Dockery" <opbop1 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a19e9c02.0406210313.31c7347@posting.google.com...
 > "Tom Bishop" <deltatom DeleteThis @sbc-elidethis-global.net> wrote in message news:<40d581e8$0$22003$af4e6cc9@news.usenetguide.com>...
  > > "ggamble", remarked:
   > > > On 19 Jun 2004 12:10:17 -0700, feardevil420 DeleteThis @yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
   > > > wrote:
   > > >
   > > > >**** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?
   > > >
   > > > He's a talentless hack if what you've pasted below is in any way
   > > > representative of his work.
   > > >
   > > > You'll never learn to write good poetry until you become capable of
   > > > recognizing good poetry.
  > >
  > > OK, so what is /good/ ?
  > >
  > > Surprise me.
 >
 > No real surprise, but if you ask me: Ginsberg, Corso, Kerouac, Frank
 > O'Hara, Rimbaud, Poe, Frost, Anne Waldman, Jim Carrol, Patti Smith,
 > Bukowski, Lou Reed.
 >
 > Now, I've read all those, and want to expand... so, okay, *what* is
 > good?


Dylan Thomas, Gerard Manely Hopkins are two of my favs.

There is some good stuff thru here, IMO.

I was doing the "Mostly Dead Poets" thing but I concluded that
there are possible copyright issues with posting to Usenet.
(I personally don't believe there should be and in fact there
probably aren't any for small poems, but "possible issues"
and so I dropped it.)


 > Will
 >
 > Will Dockery links, Results 1 - 10 of about 4,270 for "will dockery":
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/3fywk</font" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/3fywk</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gadfly

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Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 21 Jun 2004 04:13:46 -0700, Will Dockery wrote:

 > "Tom Bishop" <deltatom RemoveThis @sbc-elidethis-global.net> wrote in message news:<40d581e8$0$22003$af4e6cc9@news.usenetguide.com>...
  >> "ggamble", remarked:
   >>> On 19 Jun 2004 12:10:17 -0700, feardevil420 RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
   >>> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>> **** Any opinions on Allen Shadow?
   >>>
   >>> He's a talentless hack if what you've pasted below is in any way
   >>> representative of his work.
   >>>
   >>> You'll never learn to write good poetry until you become capable of
   >>> recognizing good poetry.
  >>
  >> OK, so what is /good/ ?
  >>
  >> Surprise me.
 >
 > No real surprise, but if you ask me: Ginsberg, Corso, Kerouac, Frank
 > O'Hara, Rimbaud, Poe, Frost, Anne Waldman, Jim Carrol, Patti Smith,
 > Bukowski, Lou Reed.
 >
 > Now, I've read all those, and want to expand... so, okay, *what* is
 > good?
 > Will

I notice that almost all the writers on your list are American.

You might like Thom Gunn, an Englishman whom we sent to America to
improve your poetic standards. He started as a "movement" poet, like
Larkin, Conquest and Jennings (all of whom you ought to read), but
I've seen him called a "beat", perhaps because he was fond of
motorbikes.

If you like Rimbaud, try Verlaine, Mallarmé and Baudelaire.

Read Larkin, whether you like him or not. Read Eliot too, and maybe
some Pound.

 > Will Dockery links, Results 1 - 10 of about 4,270 for "will dockery":
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/3fywk</font" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/3fywk</font</a>>

On my 40th birthday - it's three days away, and I'm shamelessly
plugging it in the hope that people will write long indulgent
celebratory odes for me - I'm hoping I'll finally reach the 500,000
mark in Google Groups mentions.

Oh, and try D J Enright.


Facts of Life
-------------

I had two white mice -
Then I had scores of baby mice,
Naked and pink little things, dead or
Alive or half-eaten.

Those two small mice did me more harm
Than all the pornography in the world.
My father took them away.

The dog went too.
Him we liked. But he was a creature
Of the open spaces, he needed
Long hours of exercise in the park.

He went back to the country. I hope
That was where he went.

-- D J Enright, from _Collected Poems_, OUP, 1981
--
PJR Smile
Licensed to practise kookology in the Empire of Meow

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gadfly

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Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Allen Shadow: The Ginsberg Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:36:12 -0700, Tom Bishop wrote:

 > ... I ... I ... I ... I ...

It's all about you, isn't it, Tommythief?
--
PJR Smile
Licensed to practise kookology in the Empire of Meow

(Remove NOSPAM to reply.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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biff

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Since: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:41 pm
Post subject: Free ebook for beaters [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>arts>poetry>comments, others (more info?)

Free ebook at www.biffmitchell.com may be of interest to you. It's called
Still Life with Muse and Sax. It's in MS Reader and PDF formats, but you can
also download free PDA versions from Memoware.com. Happy reading!

Biff
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