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Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument

 
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spamfree1

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Since: May 23, 2004
Posts: 286



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:15 pm
Post subject: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument
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I was fortunate enough to receive my copy of Anscombe's book:
"Metaphysics and the Philosophy of Mind" today. In it is her 'Reply
to Mr. C.S. Lewis's Argument that "Naturalism is Self-Refuting',
published in the Socratic Digest, c.1947.
The 'reply' is only about 6 pages long and includes a summary of the
discussion following her reading of it.
Been trying to google it on the net, but it looks like this book may
be the only place to find it.Sad
Have only read through it once, so don't want to attempt a summary (at
least not yet), as I don't want to mangle too badly her line of
reasoning.
However, I do think anyone seriously interested in looking at the
matter from all sides would do well to see if their library can track
down a copy of the book for them to read.
Also, as my heading suggests, I would be interested in learning what
other's who have already read it think of it.

Oh, I think I should mention that Ms. Anscombe does not make any
reference to computing machines in her refutation of Lewis'
argument. Smile
James
--

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark

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user309

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Since: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 156



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:

OH, good for you!

I've got both editions of MIRACLES, before and after he made some changes
in response to her critique.

What bets they're around p. 28? Smile)))))))



 > I was fortunate enough to receive my copy of Anscombe's book:
 > "Metaphysics and the Philosophy of Mind" today. In it is her 'Reply
 > to Mr. C.S. Lewis's Argument that "Naturalism is Self-Refuting',
 > published in the Socratic Digest, c.1947.
 > The 'reply' is only about 6 pages long and includes a summary of the
 > discussion following her reading of it.
 > Been trying to google it on the net, but it looks like this book may
 > be the only place to find it.Sad
 > Have only read through it once, so don't want to attempt a summary (at
 > least not yet), as I don't want to mangle too badly her line of
 > reasoning.
 > However, I do think anyone seriously interested in looking at the
 > matter from all sides would do well to see if their library can track
 > down a copy of the book for them to read.
 > Also, as my heading suggests, I would be interested in learning what
 > other's who have already read it think of it.
 >
 > Oh, I think I should mention that Ms. Anscombe does not make any
 > reference to computing machines in her refutation of Lewis'
 > argument. Smile


Refutation might be a bit strong. That means she succeeded. 'Rebut' means
she tried.

I heard she just wanted some details clarified, or thought he was a bit too
strong on some bits -- not that she wanted to overturn the whole thing.


Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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spamfree1

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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 01:44:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
wrote:

 >On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
 >
 >OH, good for you!
 >
 >I've got both editions of MIRACLES, before and after he made some changes
 >in response to her critique.
 >
 >What bets they're around p. 28? Smile)))))))
 >
I'll try checking that out and getting back to you on it. But I only
have the new addition. Can you point out the differences without
violating copyright laws?

   >>>snip

  >> Oh, I think I should mention that Ms. Anscombe does not make any
  >> reference to computing machines in her refutation of Lewis'
  >> argument. Smile
 >
 >
 >Refutation might be a bit strong. That means she succeeded. 'Rebut' means
 >she tried.
 >
Agreed. Perhaps I should simply have adhered to her own usage:
'reply.'

 >I heard she just wanted some details clarified, or thought he was a bit too
 >strong on some bits -- not that she wanted to overturn the whole thing.
 >
From what I've gathered she was trying to overturn the whole thing.
Here is one sentence near the beginning of her paper: "I am going to
argue that your whole thesis is only specious because of the ambiguity
of the words 'why', 'because' and 'explanation'."
James
--

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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spamfree1

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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:44 am
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On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:13:02 -0700, J.S.T. <spamfree.RemoveThis@spamfree.com>
wrote:

 >I'll try checking that out and getting back to you on it. But I only
 >have the new addition.

Obviously, that should be 'new edition.' All this talk of computing
must be addling my brain.Smile
James
--

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user309

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Since: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 156



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:09 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:13:02 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:

 > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 01:44:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
 > wrote:
 >
  >>On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
  >>
  >>OH, good for you!
  >>
  >>I've got both editions of MIRACLES, before and after he made some changes
  >>in response to her critique.
  >>
  >>What bets they're around p. 28? Smile)))))))
  >>
 > I'll try checking that out and getting back to you on it. But I only
 > have the new addition. Can you point out the differences without
 > violating copyright laws?


You go first. Smile Anscombe's sounds shorter. Maybe she will mention some
page numbers, or phrases, so I'll know where to look for differences.


Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:09:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
wrote:

 >On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:13:02 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
 >
  >> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 01:44:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
  >> wrote:
  >>
   >>>On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
   >>>
   >>>OH, good for you!
   >>>
   >>>I've got both editions of MIRACLES, before and after he made some changes
   >>>in response to her critique.
   >>>
   >>>What bets they're around p. 28? Smile)))))))
   >>>
  >> I'll try checking that out and getting back to you on it. But I only
  >> have the new addition. Can you point out the differences without
  >> violating copyright laws?
 >
 >
 >You go first. Smile Anscombe's sounds shorter. Maybe she will mention some
 >page numbers, or phrases, so I'll know where to look for differences.
 >
 >
Hopefully be able to get something for you by Sat. a.m. Though she
doesn't refer to his book by page number, she does quote him.
One tidbit I can throw your way now is the use of 'valid' by Lewis in
reference to reasoning. She strongly critiques him for that and in
his response he says it 'was a bad word for what I meant." He then
said he should have used 'veridical' instead.
James
--

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user293

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Since: Jul 22, 2003
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 01:44:40 UTC, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>> wrote:

 > On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
 >
 > OH, good for you!
 >...

 > Refutation might be a bit strong. That means she succeeded. 'Rebut' means
 > she tried.

Keep the standards of discourse flying. The windmills will knock us down
eventually, but till then, charge!

 > I heard she just wanted some details clarified, or thought he was a bit too
 > strong on some bits -- not that she wanted to overturn the whole thing.

Reppert devotes some of Chapter 1 of his Dangerous Idea book to this piece
of history. The conclusion, well argued if not surprising, is that the
thing has been misunderstood and blown way out of proportion.

BTW I finally picked up his Chapter 1 off the Net yestaerday, in response
to this discussion. I don't recall whether anyone here has actually read
the book, and I'd be interested in reactions. For my part, I found him
such a clear writer and thinker in the excerpt that I'd be unable not to
learn from reading his work, and I've got it on order now.
BTW, <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/review/code=2732" target="_blank">http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/review/code=2732</a>
--
Dan Drake
dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dandrake.com" target="_blank">http://www.dandrake.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 21:21:43 GMT, "Dan Drake" <dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com> wrote:

 >BTW I finally picked up his Chapter 1 off the Net yestaerday, in response
 >to this discussion. I don't recall whether anyone here has actually read
 >the book, and I'd be interested in reactions. For my part, I found him
 >such a clear writer and thinker in the excerpt that I'd be unable not to
 >learn from reading his work, and I've got it on order now.

I received the book along with Anscombe's. Purchased both of them
through abebooks.com. Excellent source for used and new books, by
the way.
Will probably be reading (and re-reading) Anscombe's work first to
give Mary some of the info she is looking for.
However, I would be delighted to share some of my views on Reppert's
book once I finish reading it. I was primarily motivated to get his
book because of Richard Carrier's "review." Want to see if his
analysis of it is accurate. I put review in quotes because I think it
may actually be longer than Reppert's book. Smile
James
--

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user309

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Since: Jul 27, 2004
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:03 am
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 21:21:43 GMT, Dan Drake wrote:

 > On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 01:44:40 UTC, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>> wrote:
 >
  >> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:15:18 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:
  >>
  >> OH, good for you!
  >>...
 >
  >> Refutation might be a bit strong. That means she succeeded. 'Rebut' means
  >> she tried.
 >
 > Keep the standards of discourse flying. The windmills will knock us down
 > eventually, but till then, charge!


The rising tide will eventually erode the white horses on the cliff....


  >> I heard she just wanted some details clarified, or thought he was a bit too
  >> strong on some bits -- not that she wanted to overturn the whole thing.
 >
 > Reppert devotes some of Chapter 1 of his Dangerous Idea book to this piece
 > of history. The conclusion, well argued if not surprising, is that the
 > thing has been misunderstood and blown way out of proportion.

That's my impression from some biographical accounts, probably Carpenter.
Someone quoted her saying something of the kind, that there was no big
conflict at the debate, they just listened carefully to what she pointed
out and had some reasonable questions iirc.

I've yet to see a side by side comparison of the before and after editions
of MIRACLES. Now that I have both editions (assuming the 1947 Macmillan pb
really is it, "complete and unabridged" as it says, and of the first
edition -- if JST can give page numbers I might try to find a little time
for something....

 >
 > BTW I finally picked up his Chapter 1 off the Net yestaerday, in response
 > to this discussion. I don't recall whether anyone here has actually read
 > the book, and I'd be interested in reactions. For my part, I found him
 > such a clear writer and thinker in the excerpt that I'd be unable not to
 > learn from reading his work, and I've got it on order now.
<font color=purple> > BTW, <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/review/code=2732</font" target="_blank">http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/review/code=2732</font</a>>

Looked at it a while back, it seemed almost too clear.... Let me know if it
matches Lewis's.


Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Anscombe's critique of Lewis' argument [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:09:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
wrote:

 >
 >You go first. Smile Anscombe's sounds shorter. Maybe she will mention some
 >page numbers, or phrases, so I'll know where to look for differences.
 >


I have tried to recapitulate the first 3 pages of Anscombe's reply to
Lewis below. It is a little time consuming to do all of this, so I
thought I should go ahead and post part of my labors before completing
the task. Hopefully, this is giving you the sort of information you
want. If not, I can modify my method for the latter part of her
reply: still 4 more pages of that to cover.

Also, I have abbreviated Lewis and Anscombe to L. and A. where I could
do so without ambiguity. Anscombe does italicize some words and I
have I try to show where by placing '_' before and after those words.

Her 'reply':
Anscombe states that she is not going to deal with L.'s description of
naturalism or the claim that one must either believe it or be a
supernaturalist.
Instead, she is going to focus on the argument itself: "the hypothesis
that human thought can be fully explained as the product of
non-rational causes is inconsistent with a belief in the validity of
reason."
One of the examples of an irrational cause invalidating reason that L.
gave was that we are 'less impressed by a man's gloomy views if we
know he is suffering from a bad liver attack.' Anscombe points out
that it is because we know from experience that people with liver
attacks are more likely to take a gloomy view on matters that we
dismiss such views.
She mentions other things one usually thinks of as 'irrational
causes': passion, self-interest, obstinate adherence to the views of a
party or school with which one is connected, etc. Other things like
tumors on the brain, tuberculosis, arthritis, should not (she says) be
included in that list. They are really conditions which know to 'go
with irrational beliefs or attitudes with sufficient regularity for us
to call them their causes.'
Then she discusses L.'s example of the man afraid of black dogs. Is
that in the original edition? I don't see it in the updated version
of Miracles. A's basic response to this is that when the man give his
reason for being afraid, we can discount it as groundless because our
knowledge of dogs shows it is irrational to be afraid of dogs because
of their color. So it can be described as an irrational cause along
with the other examples given above..

Then A. remarks on L.'s equation of 'irrational cause' with
'non-rational cause'. This, she says, leads him to think that if
reason could be accounted for by such 'non-rational causes' then it
would be shown as invalid as accounted for by 'irrational causes.'
Anscombe thinks this conclusion a result of L.'s confusion over the
concepts of "reason", "cause" and "explanation".

Before addressing those 'confusions', she deals with the validity of
reason. To quote:
"You can talk about the validity of a _piece_ of reasoning, and
sometimes about the validity of a _kind_ of reasoning; but if you say
you believe in the validity of reasoning itself, what do you mean?"
She then points out that we have rules in place for deciding whether
or not a reason is valid: for invalid reasoning, to show how the
conclusion does not follow from the premises; for valid reasoning, to
elucidate the form of the argument. Then she asks how the claim that
human thought is the product of natural causes could destroy this
distinction between valid and invalid reasoning. Surely, she says,
you could still use the same explanations to point out why a
particular piece of reasoning is valid or invalid. Then she gives one
possible reply L. could make: "Though I should of course know which
arguments to _call_ valid, or which I should have _called_ valid, I
should not now feel any confidence that they were _really_ valid."
Anscombe responds to this reply by asking what L. could mean by
"really valid." To quote her: "What meaning of 'valid' has been taken
away from you by the naturalistic hypothesis? What _can_ you mean by
'valid' beyond what would be indicated by the explanation you would
give for distinguishing between valid and invalid, and what in the
naturalistic hypothesis prevents that explanation from being given and
from meaning what it does?"


James
--
"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:43 pm
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Thanks! This is very good for discussion and I'm going to save it, but your
summary may be wasted effort as far as me finding passages from it. My
impression is that Lewis changed only a few key passages in response to A.
Making changes was much harder before word processors and computer
typesetting. I'd hoped it would be easy to recognize which pages, or at
least which chapters, I should look in for the changes. Didn't Anscombe
give footnotes? I don't have time to compare the whole first half of both
editions.


On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:04:48 -0700, J.S.T. wrote:

 > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:09:40 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
 > wrote:
 >
  >>
  >>You go first. Smile Anscombe's sounds shorter. Maybe she will mention some
  >>page numbers, or phrases, so I'll know where to look for differences.
  >>
 >
 >
 > I have tried to recapitulate the first 3 pages of Anscombe's reply to
 > Lewis below. It is a little time consuming to do all of this, so I
 > thought I should go ahead and post part of my labors before completing
 > the task. Hopefully, this is giving you the sort of information you
 > want.

The summaries are a bit over my head. I can deal with images like a black
dog, specifics like a liver attack, specific words maybe. Smile The point is
not whether I understand the disagreement between L and A, but whether I
can find PASSAGES that differ between the two editions.

/snip/

 > Her 'reply':
 > Anscombe states that she is not going to deal with L.'s description of
 > naturalism or the claim that one must either believe it or be a
 > supernaturalist.
 > Instead, she is going to focus on the argument itself: "the hypothesis
 > that human thought can be fully explained as the product of
 > non-rational causes is inconsistent with a belief in the validity of
 > reason."

Dunno if she was quoting some of Lewis's own phrases here.

/snip/

 > Then she discusses L.'s example of the man afraid of black dogs. Is
 > that in the original edition? I don't see it in the updated version
 > of Miracles.

Do you have an indication of WHERE it comes?

/snip/

 > Then A. remarks on L.'s equation of 'irrational cause' with
 > 'non-rational cause'. This, she says, leads him to think that if
 > reason could be accounted for by such 'non-rational causes' then it
 > would be shown as invalid as accounted for by 'irrational causes.'
 > Anscombe thinks this conclusion a result of L.'s confusion over the
 > concepts of "reason", "cause" and "explanation".

Those are specific words that should be findable, especially if anyone has
scanned the text (personal use only would be legal). However if there are
not more clues to where to look, this project of comparing editions may
need someone better equipped than me. I expect some grad student somewhere
has done it already.


Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:43 pm
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On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 18:43:51 GMT, mooreffoc <"<m"@mooreffoc.com>>
wrote:

>Thanks! This is very good for discussion and I'm going to save it, but your
>summary may be wasted effort as far as me finding passages from it. My
>impression is that Lewis changed only a few key passages in response to A.
>Making changes was much harder before word processors and computer
>typesetting. I'd hoped it would be easy to recognize which pages, or at
>least which chapters, I should look in for the changes. Didn't Anscombe
>give footnotes? I don't have time to compare the whole first half of both
>editions.

No, Anscombe did not give footnotes. Guess we have to keep in mind
that this 'reply' was originally presented in oral format in Lewis'
presence. Any mistaken use of Lewis' quotes by Anscombe could have
readily been pointed out by Lewis on the spot.
I think it is just the one chapter now titled the cardinal difficulty
of naturalism. I had assumed (mistakenly, based on your comments I
snipped out) that it would be fairly easy to go over the two chapters
themselves to find the changes.

If it is any help, Lewis does in the new edition recognize the
differences of meaning the word 'because' can signify. E.G., the
difference between the 'cause and effect _because_' and the
'ground-consequent _ because_'
Also, in his response to Anscombe, he admitted that his choice of the
word 'valid' was poor and said that 'veridical' would have more
accurately indicated his intended meaning.

In her introduction to the book containing this essay, she remarks
that on re-reading of the first edition of Miracles she still thinks
her criticisms of it are just. But she now finds "them lacking in any
recognition of the depth of the problem." This, because, in their
original form, Lewis' arguments also are lacking that 'recognition.'

She also remarks that the later edition does a better job of
corresponding "more to the actual depth and difficulty of the
questions being discussed." Although, she still sees much to
criticize in it. Unfortunately, she doesn't specify what those
criticisms are.

She also says: " I think we haven't yet an answer to the question I
have quoted from him: 'What is the connection between grounds and the
actual occurrence of the belief?'"

I am, of course, happy with that 'conclusion', because it means (if I
am understanding her correctly) that neither she or Lewis have really
answered that question. That being the case, the question itself
cannot be used as a refutation of either naturalism or
supernaturalism.

As I indicated to Dan in another post, this discussion has made me
aware of how little I really can claim to know about all of this.
Also, as Dan tried to point out to me (unfortunately, in vain because
of my smug attitude), it is an issue that does need to be taken
seriously. So am not going to be posting more on this topic (for
awhile anyways) as I need to spend more time studying and less
spouting off my opinions.

Guess, I won't try and recapitulate the rest of Anscombe's reply, as
it doesn't seem to be helpful to your comparison of the two editions.
If you would like to read the reply, you can let me know if it is ok
to email you. Then I can give you a real email you can reply to with
an address that I can send a photocopy of the article to. Since that
would fall under the personal usage of copyright materials that the
courts have recognized as being permissible, I have no ethical qualms
over doing this favor for a friend.
James
--
"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."
Fit the Fifth of The Hunting of the Snark
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