Arwen and Mortality Question

An interesting debate. I'd just like to point out one additional facet to
the thread which I don't think anybody's mentioned yet. In the Tale of
Aragorn and Arwen, as Aragorn prepares to depart (and it's interesting that
he's able to actually chose the moment of his departure, since he was given
"the grace to go at [his] will"), he says to Arwen that, "The uttermost
choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the
West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never
more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."

In other words, Arwen's choice or mortality was evidently not an
irreversible one. She could apparently have changed her mind and departed
Middle-earth for Aman, late though it was, and dwelt there forever, reunited
with her father but parted from Aragorn. This supports the idea that the
choice of the peredhil could be put off, or even reversed.

Jason
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In article <tEmCb.2383$e42.750@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>, j-a-s-e-
f.TakeThisOut@swbell.net says...
> An interesting debate. I'd just like to point out one additional facet to
> the thread which I don't think anybody's mentioned yet. In the Tale of
> Aragorn and Arwen, as Aragorn prepares to depart (and it's interesting that
> he's able to actually chose the moment of his departure, since he was given
> "the grace to go at [his] will"), he says to Arwen that, "The uttermost
> choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the
> West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never
> more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
>
> In other words, Arwen's choice or mortality was evidently not an
> irreversible one. She could apparently have changed her mind and departed
> Middle-earth for Aman, late though it was, and dwelt there forever, reunited
> with her father but parted from Aragorn. This supports the idea that the
> choice of the peredhil could be put off, or even reversed.

It might except for Arwem's responce:
"'Nay, dear lord,' she said, 'that choice is long over.'"

--
Tar-Elenion

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
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"Tar-Elenion" <tar_elenion RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> It might except for Arwem's responce:
> "'Nay, dear lord,' she said, 'that choice is long over.'"

Yes, but all she's saying here is that she made the choice in her heart long
before and intends to stick to it. This doesn't change the fact that she
evidently *could* have changed her mind. And the mere possibility of a
change of heart, whether acted upon or not, adds (for me) an interesting
shade to the mortality/immortality question.

Jason
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In article <AvoCb.2881$Ol3.1020@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, j-a-s-e-
f DeleteThis @swbell.net says...
> "Tar-Elenion" <tar_elenion DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > It might except for Arwem's responce:
> > "'Nay, dear lord,' she said, 'that choice is long over.'"
>
> Yes, but all she's saying here is that she made the choice in her heart long
> before and intends to stick to it. This doesn't change the fact that she
> evidently *could* have changed her mind. And the mere possibility of a
> change of heart, whether acted upon or not, adds (for me) an interesting
> shade to the mortality/immortality question.

Is she? It seems to me that she is saying she can't make another 'choice'
even if she wanted to.

As JRRT wrote:
"The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice,
which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will
share."
Letter 153

"The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and
fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the
parting of Elrond and Arwen."
Letter 154


--
Tar-Elenion

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
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>Is she? It seems to me that she is saying she can't make another 'choice'
>even if she wanted to.

If your interpretation of her words is true, which it could be, then doesn't
this imply that Aragorn's statement is not correct? That he's mistaken to
imply that Arwen could repent her decision?

Or perhaps my interpretation of Arwen's words is correct, yet your point
about the finality of her decision is still true: if so, then to reconcile
these two, we might deduce that her decision wasn't "on the record" until
this moment, that it was just assumed until then, put-off as Elladan's and
Elrohir's choice seems to have been. What do you think?

It seems that it must be one of the other, no?

> "The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice,
> which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will
> share." (Letter 153)

This is a well-chosen quote, yet in the same letter JRRT speaks of the
exception of Túor, introducing the possibility of other exceptions. Such
were the importance of Aragorn and Arwen (going so far as to allow that
Aragorn could choose the moment of his departure-were any others of
Númenorean descent able to do likewise?) that the possibility of exception
seems plausible here. To me, anyway.

> "The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and
> fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the
> parting of Elrond and Arwen." (Letter 154)

Another well-chosen citation. Still, if we consider that Arwen's decision
wasn't "official" until that moment of Aragorn's direct confrontation with
his own mortality, we might allow that *this* is that moment of final choice
for Arwen. That she was resolved for many years of her choice, yet made it
final only then. An interesting thought.

As I said, the quote it a bit enigmatic and opens the door to
thought-provoking discussions. In a more general sense, at what point and
how, exactly, might we imagine that this choice of mortality or immortality
is made? Is it in one's mind only? Must it be testified openly in some way?
One wonders ...

Jason
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In article <4qpCb.2889$zH3.684@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, j-a-s-e-
f.RemoveThis@swbell.net says...
> >Is she? It seems to me that she is saying she can't make another 'choice'
> >even if she wanted to.
>
> If your interpretation of her words is true, which it could be, then doesn't
> this imply that Aragorn's statement is not correct? That he's mistaken to
> imply that Arwen could repent her decision?

Yes. Aragorn was wrong.

>
> Or perhaps my interpretation of Arwen's words is correct, yet your point
> about the finality of her decision is still true: if so, then to reconcile
> these two, we might deduce that her decision wasn't "on the record" until
> this moment, that it was just assumed until then, put-off as Elladan's and
> Elrohir's choice seems to have been. What do you think?

I think Arwen made her choice in 2980 when she and Aragorn met in
Lothlorien and plighted their troth:
"And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long
parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras
Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom
appointed."

I think it possible that she could have changed her mind up until the
point Elrond sailed West. That is, her choice was not in effect until
that point (she still 'lived with the youth of the Eldar'). When Elrond
left, her choice became irrevocable ('was on the record').

>
> It seems that it must be one of the other, no?

No. Aragorn was wrong. That is why Arwen said: "There is now no ship that
would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
will or I nill: the loss and the silence."

>
> > "The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice,
> > which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will
> > share." (Letter 153)
>
> This is a well-chosen quote, yet in the same letter JRRT speaks of the
> exception of Túor, introducing the possibility of other exceptions. Such
> were the importance of Aragorn and Arwen (going so far as to allow that
> Aragorn could choose the moment of his departure-were any others of
> Númenorean descent able to do likewise?) that the possibility of exception
> seems plausible here. To me, anyway.

JRRT rules out the possibility of other exceptions, when he notes that
Luthien was an "absolute exception" and Tuor an "unique exception".
The Numenoreans were able to choose their 'time of departure' and did so
until the Shadow came upon Numenor. Tar-Atanamir was the first to refuse
to willingly lay down his life.

>
> > "The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and
> > fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the
> > parting of Elrond and Arwen." (Letter 154)
>
> Another well-chosen citation. Still, if we consider that Arwen's decision
> wasn't "official" until that moment of Aragorn's direct confrontation with
> his own mortality, we might allow that *this* is that moment of final choice
> for Arwen. That she was resolved for many years of her choice, yet made it
> final only then. An interesting thought.

I consider that her decision was "official" long before. Arwen, it would
seem, agrees on this.


>
> As I said, the quote it a bit enigmatic and opens the door to
> thought-provoking discussions. In a more general sense, at what point and
> how, exactly, might we imagine that this choice of mortality or immortality
> is made? Is it in one's mind only? Must it be testified openly in some way?
> One wonders ...
>
> Jason
>
>
>

--
Tar-Elenion

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
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Jason Fisher <j-a-s-e-f.TakeThisOut@swbell.net> wrote:
> If your interpretation of her words is true, which it could be, then doesn't
> this imply that Aragorn's statement is not correct? That he's mistaken to
> imply that Arwen could repent her decision?

We discussed this on the newsgroup a few months ago, and I
guess my final thoughts on this were that Aragorn and Arwen were
to a certain extent speaking rhetorically.

- Arwen asks Aragorn if he is going before his time, knowing
full well that he isn't.
- Aragorn replies that he isn't.
- Aragorn then suggests that Arwen could reverse her choice,
knowing full well that she can't.
- Arwen replies that she can't.

I don't think it's 100% certain from Tolkien's words, but
the above interpretation rings true for me and provides a nice
symmetry to the dialogue.

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
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Stan Brown wrote:

> If she meant "That choice I made long ago, and I will not renounce
> it now," then she would have said that. When she said "That choice
> is long over" the "evident" meaning, in my opinion, is "That choice
> is no longer mine to make."

Didn't Arwen give up her seat in the lifeboat to Frodo?

Bob Kolker
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Mik <blah.RemoveThis@blah.com> wrote:

>On 6 Dec 2003 17:37:54 -0500, jbrock.RemoveThis@panix.com (John Brock) wrote:
>
>>You know, it occurs to me that Arwen has already waited an awfully
>>long time to get married. Didn't most Elves settle down with
>>someone *long* before their 2000th birthdays? Any explanations
>>for this? Was Arwen some sort of Elvish old maid or confirmed
>>bachelorette before Aragorn swept her away?
>
>I'm no Tolkien scholar by any stretch, but is it possible this
>circumstance with Arwen comes down to the Elvish 'destiny' thing? Ie:
>Her fate, as with all elves, was written in the Song of Ainur long
>before she even came into being. Elves live mythical lives, basically
>pre-scripted for greatness or tragedy or whatever. Wheras humans live
>totally unscripted, 'free' lives--the price of mortality. So Arwen was
>really destined to be with Aragorn, she could end up with no other.
>Unless Aragorn was killed in the War of the Ring I suppose...

Which illustrates the problem with that idea (which is JRRT's): if
Arwen is bound by the Music, which is as fate to her, to wed Aragorn,
then is not Aragorn similarly bound? The concept of some categories
(Valar, Maiar, Elves) being bound and some (Men and therefore Hobbits)
not is, I suspect, untenable.
--
Five of my email addresses have been hijacked & used
by spammers since mid-September 2003! The email above is
invalid. All replies to the newsgroup, please.
Also: I still mostly download on Saturdays &
upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue.
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In article <AvoCb.2881$Ol3.1020@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, "Jason Fisher"
<j-a-s-e-f DeleteThis @swbell.net> writes:

>"Tar-Elenion" <tar_elenion DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> It might except for Arwem's responce:
>> "'Nay, dear lord,' she said, 'that choice is long over.'"
>
>Yes, but all she's saying here is that she made the choice in her heart long
>before and intends to stick to it. This doesn't change the fact that she
>evidently *could* have changed her mind. And the mere possibility of a
>change of heart, whether acted upon or not, adds (for me) an interesting
>shade to the mortality/immortality question.

As I see it, she made her choce when they plotted their troth and she made her
Choice when she married Aragorn.

Russ
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In article <MPG.1a43dd14331b45529897d5.RemoveThis@news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tar-Elenion
<tar_elenion.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> writes:

>In article <4qpCb.2889$zH3.684@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>, j-a-s-e-
>f@swbell.net says...
>> >Is she? It seems to me that she is saying she can't make another 'choice'
>> >even if she wanted to.
>>
>> If your interpretation of her words is true, which it could be, then
>doesn't
>> this imply that Aragorn's statement is not correct? That he's mistaken to
>> imply that Arwen could repent her decision?
>
>Yes. Aragorn was wrong.

I'm not sure if he was wrong or trying to make a point.

>> Or perhaps my interpretation of Arwen's words is correct, yet your point
>> about the finality of her decision is still true: if so, then to reconcile
>> these two, we might deduce that her decision wasn't "on the record" until
>> this moment, that it was just assumed until then, put-off as Elladan's and
>> Elrohir's choice seems to have been. What do you think?
>
>I think Arwen made her choice in 2980 when she and Aragorn met in
>Lothlorien and plighted their troth:
>"And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long
>parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras
>Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom
>appointed."
>
>I think it possible that she could have changed her mind up until the
>point Elrond sailed West. That is, her choice was not in effect until
>that point (she still 'lived with the youth of the Eldar'). When Elrond
>left, her choice became irrevocable ('was on the record').

IMO, her Choice (capital "C") was made when she married Aragorn.

<snip>

Russ
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"Bill O'Meally"
>
> All the Half-elven, or Peredhril have the choice of their fate: to
> either be immortal as the Elves (such as Elrond chose) or mortal as Men
> (as Elros chose). The children of those who choose immortality, ie,
> decline the Gift of Illuvatar, have the option of accepting the Gift
> (mortality). The children of those that choose mortality do not have a
> choice -- they are mortal too.
>
> Arwen, being the child of a Peredhril that chose immortality, has a
> choice.
>
What about Dior, Thingol's heir? He was a child to Luthien who chose
the gift of men yet we know his daughter could still choose
immortality
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In article <92f72b5d.0312151655.b334c5c.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
mairiel.RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk (Mairiel) writes:

>"Bill O'Meally"
>>
>> All the Half-elven, or Peredhril have the choice of their fate: to
>> either be immortal as the Elves (such as Elrond chose) or mortal as Men
>> (as Elros chose). The children of those who choose immortality, ie,
>> decline the Gift of Illuvatar, have the option of accepting the Gift
>> (mortality). The children of those that choose mortality do not have a
>> choice -- they are mortal too.
>>
>> Arwen, being the child of a Peredhril that chose immortality, has a
>> choice.
>>
>What about Dior, Thingol's heir? He was a child to Luthien who chose
>the gift of men yet we know his daughter could still choose
>immortality
>

Dior did not choose the gift of men. There is some debate over how he was
treated. I believe he was mortal.

Russ
----------------------
"If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out
of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan
Rather on why he won't visit Iraq.
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