Arwen and Mortality Question

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a46fcd57851f34998b976.TakeThisOut@news.odyssey.net>...
<snip>
> A bigger question is, just what did Tolkien mean by "fate" in the
> Music? Surely he intended the Elves to have free will, just as much
> as Men or talking foxes.

Actually, I thought Sil was pretty clear the Music was fate to talking foxes...
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
> I just can't buy this. Consider the Dwarves. They were initially
> created without free will, by Aule. Iluvatar gave them free will
> after Aule's repentance. Surely he would not give them this gift and
> withhold it from the Firstborn.

I seem to remember, in some biography or other, JRRT saying
to someone that the Valar and Maiar were angels, and that the
Elves were angels too. What I take this to mean is that the
Elves, like the Valar and Maiar, were the equivalent in that
mythology of the angels of Christian tradition.

Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
have free will. They are subject to the will of God. This
includes the rebel angels such as Lucifer and his crowd.

I think Tolkien intended something like this for the Elves.
That is, they seem to have free will, and they seem even to do
evil in a way that seems to rebel against the supreme deity, but
they are all actually part of the inscrutable plan of the
supreme deity.

> Someone -- I've already forgotten who -- said it well, in my
> opinion: the Elves are constrained to stay in Ea and be part of the
> Music, as opposed to Men who leave Ea, which is the Music.

But how does that relate to free will? Do Men have free
will only when they die and leave Ea?

> But if the Ainur had free will in singing the music at the
> beginning, I don't see any difficulty in Elves having free will to
> make their decisions within the Music.

I don't think the Ainur did have free will in singing the
music. Eru taught music to the Ainur, and directed the music.
Even the theme of Morgoth was a part of what Eru foresaw. It's
just in the third theme that the Men get to contribute their own
little melodies.

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
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> Elves were angels too. What I take this to mean is that the
> Elves, like the Valar and Maiar, were the equivalent in that
> mythology of the angels of Christian tradition.

no
elves were material creatures of the world

i dont know anything in christian tradition
that says there cant be other creatures of god besides men

i think arab djinns would fall into that
as would the wee folk of europe

> Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
> correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
> have free will. They are subject to the will of God. This
> includes the rebel angels such as Lucifer and his crowd.

which tradition

the notion rebel angels is outside the bible
as is most of angelogy
developed by the early church and then declard canon for political reasons

its really not clear what angels are
some say they are independent intelligences
(and while humans know forgiveness we only know regret)

others have suggested angels are just transient condensations of godstuff

the ainur are transcendent entities predating creation

> I think Tolkien intended something like this for the Elves.
> That is, they seem to have free will, and they seem even to do
> evil in a way that seems to rebel against the supreme deity, but
> they are all actually part of the inscrutable plan of the
> supreme deity.

same as men
elves and men are both material creatures of this world
the difference is that men become transcendent
while elves might not be

> I don't think the Ainur did have free will in singing the

the only entity who truly knows is eru
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On 18 Dec 2003 17:17:28 GMT,
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> I just can't buy this. Consider the Dwarves. They were initially
>> created without free will, by Aule. Iluvatar gave them free will
>> after Aule's repentance. Surely he would not give them this gift and
>> withhold it from the Firstborn.
>
> I seem to remember, in some biography or other, JRRT saying
> to someone that the Valar and Maiar were angels, and that the
> Elves were angels too. What I take this to mean is that the
> Elves, like the Valar and Maiar, were the equivalent in that
> mythology of the angels of Christian tradition.

The Valar and Maiar were all Ainur, which were an angelic order. I recall
no passage where Tolkien calls the Elves angels. They, like Men, were the
Children of Illuvatar, sundered from Men largely by the fate of the spirits.
Biologically they were the same species.

I have often wondered at whether fate as it is described in Tolkien's
mythology necessarily represents predestination. The Music of the Ainur did
not reveal all that was to occur, so clearly if Elves and Ainur were simply
puppets, this would be hard to reconcile.

The only passage that seems to hint to at least some degree of
predestination is in reference to Men's fate, where the Valar note that they
have a strange ability for good or ill. I can't recall the exact passage at
the moment, but it is pretty ambiguous.

My own feeling is that Fate as it is referred to in the Silmarillion is
largely more concerned with the destination of the various peoples of Arda.
Elves and Ainur are bound to Arda. Men are not, and yearn to depart from
Arda. This is their Gift, to be released from creation and go whither Eru
wills them.

I do think that the Ainur and Elves did have free will every bit as much as
Men. They could err, as the Valar did when they did not attack Melkor and
wrest Middle Earth from him before the Elves awoke. They could turn to
evil, as we see with Feanor, Eol and Sauron. Melkor's rebellion even begins
before the Ainur had finished singing the Music.

But if there is any predestination in Arda, it certainly seems to bundle up
Men as well. The Witch King is bound up by a prophecy that he will not be
slain by any man. An even better example is Beren, who seems to have been
destined to get into Doriath. Obviously even the actions of Men, at times,
are bound up in the Music.

<snip>

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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In article <brsnf7$73m3v$3@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de>, me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net (Jamie
Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) writes:

> Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
>correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
>have free will.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "As purely spiritual creatures
angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures,
surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory
bears witness."

Russ
----------------------
"If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out
of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan
Rather on why he won't visit Iraq.
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Russ <mcresq RemoveThis @aol.comnojunk> wrote:
> In article <brsnf7$73m3v$3@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de>, me RemoveThis @privacy.net (Jamie
> Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) writes:
>> Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
>>correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
>>have free will.
> From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "As purely spiritual creatures
> angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures,
> surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory
> bears witness."

OK, that was fast . But does "will" here mean "free
will", and/or the ability to choose to do something independent
of what God wants? And does the above include the rebel angels?

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
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In article <brt1sg$7bbqh$1@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de>, me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net (Jamie
Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) writes:

>Russ <mcresq.TakeThisOut@aol.comnojunk> wrote:
>> In article <brsnf7$73m3v$3@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de>, me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net
>(Jamie
>> Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) writes:
>>> Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
>>>correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
>>>have free will.
>> From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "As purely spiritual creatures
>> angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal
>creatures,
>> surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their
>glory
>> bears witness."
>
> OK, that was fast . But does "will" here mean "free
>will", and/or the ability to choose to do something independent
>of what God wants? And does the above include the rebel angels?

The nature of angels is not a major thing in Catholic doctrine, but my
understanding is that the answer is yes to all the above.

Russ
----------------------
"If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out
of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan
Rather on why he won't visit Iraq.
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"cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_fheal.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-1812031040270001@c142.ppp.tsoft.com...
> > Elves were angels too. What I take this to mean is that the
> > Elves, like the Valar and Maiar, were the equivalent in that
> > mythology of the angels of Christian tradition.
>
> no
> elves were material creatures of the world
>
> i dont know anything in christian tradition
> that says there cant be other creatures of god besides men
>
> i think arab djinns would fall into that
> as would the wee folk of europe
>
> > Now, as far as I know (Russ or someone else will kindly
> > correct me if I am wrong), angels in Christian tradition do not
> > have free will. They are subject to the will of God. This
> > includes the rebel angels such as Lucifer and his crowd.
>
> which tradition
>
> the notion rebel angels is outside the bible
> as is most of angelogy
> developed by the early church and then declard canon for political reasons

Actually, much of it came from Enoch, which is not in scripture, but
referred to as scripture in scripture.

Dan M.
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On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:42:41 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>angels in Christian tradition do not
>>have free will. They are subject to the will of God.

There is a problem here in terninology and understanding.

All Creation is subject to the Will of God, however Man is not bound
by it: Man has Free Will. Angels also have Free Will: otherwise
Lucifer would not have been able to sin. God, in his timeless
Omniscience, has seen all, however He does not coerce. In this sense
everything is pre-ordained. However everything is not pre-determined,
just pre-known.

The same mystery applies to the Ainur and all the Eruhini. Note that
Morgoth was able to sin. However the Elves are Unfallen, not
error-free. Man is Fallen.

Some of the logic here has been subject to two thousand years of
intense definition and discussion. It is VERY difficult. I do not
profess to fully comprehend or understand it. I absolutely do not
expect any philosophical or theological revelations from the Usenet,
expecially as the vast majority of us are not trained in theology and
logic. We babble like little children. Would you trust your brain
surgery to the Usenet?


the softrat
"You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!"
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Baba ganoosh ganache Ganesh!
Baba ganoosh ganache!
--culinary cheer for the elephant god
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Stan Brown wrote:

> I don't think the Elves have any equivalent in Christian mythology.
> Galadriel is reminiscent of Mary in specifically Catholic thought,
> but there's not a close correspondence.

I think rather Varda is reminiscent of Mary ("Queen of Heaven"), and on
another note the Valar as a whole are reminiscent of the Pope.

-JJ
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the softrat wrote:

> .... the vast majority of us are not trained in theology and
> logic. We babble like little children. Would you trust your brain
> surgery to the Usenet?

To me "trained in theology" means "taught to repeat theo-babble." I have
thought (deeply, I like to think) about atheist-agnostic-deist-theist
issues for decades.

No one should believe me, because no one else has had my life
experiences. But no one should discount my views because I do not have a
formal education in the area.

I am not altogether on anyone's side, since no one is altogether on my side.

Gerry, who also knows how to use a hug
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