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Anarcissie

External


Since: Nov 02, 2008
Posts: 3



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:20 am
Post subject: Bad Money
Archived from groups: sci>econ, others (more info?)

Nicholas von Hoffman on Kevin Phillipsı ŒBad Moneyı
http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20081031_nicholas_von_hoffman_o
n_kevin_phillips_bad_money/
Posted on Oct 31, 2008

By Nicholas von Hoffman

Americans, rich or poor, have consciously or otherwise bought into the
master-nation proposition that really bad things do not happen to the
USA. We might suffer setbacks and commit a blunder once in a while, but
we are too big, too rich, too smart, too powerful and too blessed to be
visited by a national catastrophe. That the whole goddamn economy could
melt right out from under our feet is an unimaginable event, an
occurrence out of history when crackly voiced recordings captured
President Franklin Roosevelt talking to the Okies.

Such disasters may overtake Argentines or Malaysians or Bulgarians or
Russians or even, occasionally, the English, but not the red, white and
blue über-nation. Yet in the space of a year the U.S. has gone from
über-nation to under-nation, or at least a nation under water as
hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs, been tossed out of their
homes and seen the savings of a lifetime decimated. Americans have seen
many of the most respected business institutions revealed as
organizations run by confidence men whose cupidity is yoked to their
pride and their stupidity in believing that they could run their ruinous
games forever.

At this juncture the dimensions of the disaster are not clear. An honest
count would show 10 or 11 percent of the labor force is out of work. If
the numbers continue to climb at the present rate, by this time next
year they will begin to match those of the gray days of the New Deal era.

By then we may begin to tell each other that none of this misery had to
happen. There was no end of warnings and no one was more prescient or
more persistent in foretelling what lay in store for us than Kevin
Phillips. In the long run up to the vortex, Phillips was one of those
who repeatedly warned of what was coming. No one did it more cogently,
more learnedly and more forcefully than he.

In his new book, ³Bad Money,² Phillips discusses why so few paid
attention to a topic so important to their own well-being.

³Many people today think that todayıs finance is too complicated for
ordinary citizens to fathom or handle. Bubbles aside, other financial
terms used by the media‹credit derivatives, securitization, and even
current account deficit‹do not lend themselves to conversations in
neighborhood bars or beauty parlors. Americans are excusing themselves
accordingly,² writes Phillips. ³Still, if the farmers of more than a
century ago could study and understand Sherman Silver Purchase Act
provisions and details of the nationwide currency shrinkage‹and many
studied and somehow managed‹canıt we expect as much today?²

Answering his own question, Phillips says, ³Alas, probably not,² and,
given that many 21st-century Americans have the power of concentration
of a flea with attention deficit disorder, one cannot argue with him.

Had they heeded what he was saying, the disaster engulfing them and much
of the world might have been mitigated. But it is still not too late to
learn from Phillips. ³Bad Money² is a map describing the economic
terrain in which we are struggling to stay upright and slightly solvent.
It is a clearly written treatise demanding no knowledge of Greek letter
formulas, one which ought to command the attention and interest of such
non-fleas as there may be left among us.

For them this is a useful book because it does not address bailouts and
the other hysterical emergency measures which dominate the news, stopgap
remedies and economic analgesics though they may be. Temporary relief
from pain not withstanding, Kevin Phillips lays out the actualities
which must be dealt with before the throbbing will stop.

He begins by describing a distorted economy whose profits have no
material reality other than notations on paper or electronic digits.
That is the bad money from which the book draws its title, sterile
money, not so much earned as won by financial manipulations and
³products² whose names we have just recently learned, to our loss.

Phillips quotes Raymond Dalio of Bridgewater Associates: ³The money
thatıs made for manufacturing stuff is a pittance in comparison to the
amount of money made from shuffling money around. Forty-four percent of
all corporate profits in the U.S. come from the financial sector
compared with only 10 percent from the manufacturing center.²

Sixty years ago, Phillips writes, about 30 percent of the American gross
domestic product was attributable to manufactures and about 10 percent
to financial. The numbers now are approximately reversed. Until recent
times the United States made its living across the globe by selling
manufactures and raw material. In our time, however, under the aegis of
the new economy the nation has tried to live by selling nugatory
services of a vaguely financial nature to foreigners who have not been
buying enough to keep the American economy from going deeper into the
red, year upon year.

³Š [T]his faith in finance was not new, but old‹and it played wayward
Pied Piper to prior leading world economic powers,² Phillips writes. ³On
the edge of decline the Spanish had gloried in their New World gold and
silver; the Dutch, in their investment income and lending to princes and
czarinas; and the British, in their banks, brokers, and global financial
network. In none of these situations, however, could financial services
succeed in upholding the national preeminence that had been earlier
built by explorers, conquistadores, maritime skills, innovative science
and engineering, the first railroads, electrical dynamos, and great iron
and steel works. Invariably, power and greatness passed to new
explorers, innovators, and industrialists.²

He quotes an admonitory passage to the same effect from a 1904 speech to
his nationıs bankers by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain
which might apply to the United States 104 years later: ³Granted that
you are the clearinghouse of the world, [but] are you entirely beyond
anxiety as to the permanence of your great position? ... Banking is not
the creator of our prosperity, but it is the creation of it. It is not
the cause of our wealth, but it is the consequence of our wealth.²

With the ascendancy of finance comes the maldistribution of capital.
Money is invested in the wrong places. Gigantic amounts of capital are
borrowed for unproductive purpose, for things which have no payback.
³The debt the United States has been piling on in the last few years has
provided only 30-40 percent as much stimulus per dollar to the national
economy as did the debt added 25 or 40 years ago. Why?² Phillips asks.
³Because money borrowed in 1970 or 1984 to be spent on factories, new
jet fighter aircraft, teachers, or interstate highways had a lot more
grassroots impact than money borrowed by 10,000 hedge funds to double
the leverage of their various self-serving speculations.²

Roads, factories, research, productive companies, education are
undercapitalized, the money which might have been sent in their
direction having been sucked off into the catastrophic frivolities of
Wall Street, Greenwich, Conn., and wasteful finance. Capital which ought
to have been used to lower costs and increase productivity was used to
play the destructive games which have left once healthy corporate
organizations gasping for breath, too weak to modernize, too depleted to
compete and too fragile to prosper.

The distraining of capital to all the wrong places was accompanied by
the debt-credit explosion. As pesky and difficult as contending with
public indebtedness, especially the federal deficit, is, Phillips
foresaw that it is private-sector debt which is likely to destroy us. On
this he quotes Warren Buffett, another figure who warned that the
country was steering toward catastrophe: ³You canıt turn a financial
toad into a prince by securitizing it. Š Wall Street started believing
its own PR on this‹they started holding the stuff themselves, maybe
because they couldnıt sell it. It worked wonderfully until it didnıt
work at all. Wall Street is reaping what theyıve sown.²

Beyond Wall Streetıs suffering for Wall Streetıs crimes, Phillips
describes the American descent into a debt-dependent economy in which
the most important activities have been building subdivisions and
erecting malls with money borrowed from abroad. The middle-class masses
drive home to the houses they cannot afford and zoom off to overly
hypothecated malls, using oil they have no means to pay for, in order to
incur additional debt on their credit cards.

The risks of a financial system constructed of toothpicks were plain to
Phillips and scores of others outside of it and to none within. With the
assistance of battalions of idiot savants from MIT and Harvard, the much
admired math ³quants,² the investment bankers boasted that they had
found a way to ensure that the more borrowed the less the risk.

While Wall Street entertained the fantasy that it had perfected an
algorithm which had eliminated risk from the financial equation,
ordinary people were finding their lives increasingly uncertain. The
ascent of Wall Street to something approximating total power, however
brief that reign may be, has brought with it awareness of the
disparities of wealth and income. Less publicity has been given to how
much riskier life has become for Americaıs middle class.

Ordinary families face a 1-in-5 chance of seeing their incomes drop by
half, according to figures compiled before the present ³slowdown² or
³slump² or ³weakening² or recession. Phillips recalls the work of
Harvardıs Elizabeth Warren, quoting her that ³middle-class families have
been threatened on every front. Š Even with two paychecks, family
finances are stretched so thin that a very small misstep can leave them
in crisis. As tough as life has become for married couples,
single-parent families face even more financial obstacles in trying to
carve out middle-class lives on a single paycheck. And at the same time
that families are facing higher costs and increased risks, the
old-fashioned rules of credit have been rewritten by powerful corporate
interests that see middle-class families as the spoils of political
influence.²

As for the future, Phillipsı attitude is decidedly saturnine. Long years
of national prosperity and success, he fears, breed political
arteriosclerosis, making change next to impossible. His assessment of
the Democrats is anything but hopeful: ³Gone on the Democratic side is
the southern and western geography of opposition to northeastern
financial elites under the aegis of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson,
Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman. Instead, there is a new
democratic politics of new national elites‹financial, high-tech and
communications. Š For both parties, the bottom line is usually the same:
the bottom line. Fundraising. Money.²

³Bad Money² was finished before Barack Obama secured the Democratic
nomination, but the points Phillips makes about the connection between
Wall Street and the Democratic Party are still germane. Robert Rubin, an
oft mentioned Obama adviser, was Bill Clintonıs secretary of the
treasury and is an ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs and presently in top
management at Citigroup. Of Rubin and the other Wall Street Democrats,
Phillips writes: ³The new profinance Democrats were not the same as the
older profinance Republicans. They were more engaging, less out of the
Union League of Philadelphia or 1950s New Yorker cartoons. Behind the
scenes, some might contentedly bailout endangered bondholders, put
impoverished nations through the behavioral wringer of the International
Monetary Fund, or operate consumer finance units that bilked a lower
income clientele. But in their public personas, most took a different
tack. In deference to their multiple Democratic coalition-mates, they
donated to the NAACP; joined the boards of environmental groups;
embraced technology, education, free trade and globalization; and
worried about the growing international gap between the rich and the
poor as well as the gap in the United States. There was also, as weıve
seen, another broader enabler: the new popular acceptance of finance.²

This is not the message of rebirth and hope of the Obama campaign, but
Phillips has a long track record and a good one. He is no man to ignore.

[ Nicholas von Hoffman, a former columnist for The Washington Post and a
former commentator for CBSı ³60 Minutes,² is a regular columnist for The
New York Observer. He is the author of numerous books, including ³Hoax:
Why Americans Are Suckered by White House Lies² and ³Capitalist Fools:
Tales of American Business From Carnegie to Forbes to the Milken Gang.² ]

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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 105



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Bad Money [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: sci>econ, others (more info?)

On Nov 2, 5:05 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
> ...
> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns, the renationalisation
> of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans that had lasted for 150 years,
> and which had survived the great depression fine, or the complete collapse
> of the entire world's financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.
> ...

If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard to
predict that a breaking point will be reached, but it is pretty
hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur. It's
like "When will the oil run out?" Eventually, the oil will
run out, but rising prices might put off the date, or a war
might advance it.

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Arindam Banerjee

External


Since: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 172



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Bad Money [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: sci>econ, others (more info?)

On Nov 3, 2:20 am, Anarcissie wrote:
> Nicholas von Hoffman on Kevin Phillipsı ŒBad Moneyıhttp://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20081031_nicholas_von_hoffm...
> n_kevin_phillips_bad_money/
> Posted on Oct 31, 2008
>
> By Nicholas von Hoffman
>
> Americans, rich or poor, have consciously or otherwise bought into the
> master-nation proposition that really bad things do not happen to the
> USA. We might suffer setbacks and commit a blunder once in a while, but
> we are too big, too rich, too smart, too powerful and too blessed to be
> visited by a national catastrophe. That the whole goddamn economy could
> melt right out from under our feet is an unimaginable event, an
> occurrence out of history when crackly voiced recordings captured
> President Franklin Roosevelt talking to the Okies.
>
> Such disasters may overtake Argentines or Malaysians or Bulgarians or
> Russians or even, occasionally, the English, but not the red, white and
> blue über-nation. Yet in the space of a year the U.S. has gone from
> über-nation to under-nation, or at least a nation under water as
> hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs, been tossed out of their
> homes and seen the savings of a lifetime decimated. Americans have seen
> many of the most respected business institutions revealed as
> organizations run by confidence men whose cupidity is yoked to their
> pride and their stupidity in believing that they could run their ruinous
> games forever.
>
> At this juncture the dimensions of the disaster are not clear. An honest
> count would show 10 or 11 percent of the labor force is out of work. If
> the numbers continue to climb at the present rate, by this time next
> year they will begin to match those of the gray days of the New Deal era.
>
> By then we may begin to tell each other that none of this misery had to
> happen. There was no end of warnings and no one was more prescient or
> more persistent in foretelling what lay in store for us than Kevin
> Phillips. In the long run up to the vortex, Phillips was one of those
> who repeatedly warned of what was coming. No one did it more cogently,
> more learnedly and more forcefully than he.
>
> In his new book, ³Bad Money,² Phillips discusses why so few paid
> attention to a topic so important to their own well-being.
>
> ³Many people today think that todayıs finance is too complicated for
> ordinary citizens to fathom or handle. Bubbles aside, other financial
> terms used by the media‹credit derivatives, securitization, and even
> current account deficit‹do not lend themselves to conversations in
> neighborhood bars or beauty parlors. Americans are excusing themselves
> accordingly,² writes Phillips. ³Still, if the farmers of more than a
> century ago could study and understand Sherman Silver Purchase Act
> provisions and details of the nationwide currency shrinkage‹and many
> studied and somehow managed‹canıt we expect as much today?²
>
> Answering his own question, Phillips says, ³Alas, probably not,² and,
> given that many 21st-century Americans have the power of concentration
> of a flea with attention deficit disorder, one cannot argue with him.
>
> Had they heeded what he was saying, the disaster engulfing them and much
> of the world might have been mitigated. But it is still not too late to
> learn from Phillips. ³Bad Money² is a map describing the economic
> terrain in which we are struggling to stay upright and slightly solvent.
> It is a clearly written treatise demanding no knowledge of Greek letter
> formulas, one which ought to command the attention and interest of such
> non-fleas as there may be left among us.
>
> For them this is a useful book because it does not address bailouts and
> the other hysterical emergency measures which dominate the news, stopgap
> remedies and economic analgesics though they may be. Temporary relief
> from pain not withstanding, Kevin Phillips lays out the actualities
> which must be dealt with before the throbbing will stop.
>
> He begins by describing a distorted economy whose profits have no
> material reality other than notations on paper or electronic digits.
> That is the bad money from which the book draws its title, sterile
> money, not so much earned as won by financial manipulations and
> ³products² whose names we have just recently learned, to our loss.

Serves them right, for worshipping Einstein and relativity.
According to relativity, appearance is reality. So going by that,
glitter is gold, if only there are enough fools to buy that.

> Phillips quotes Raymond Dalio of Bridgewater Associates: ³The money
> thatıs made for manufacturing stuff is a pittance in comparison to the
> amount of money made from shuffling money around. Forty-four percent of
> all corporate profits in the U.S. come from the financial sector
> compared with only 10 percent from the manufacturing center.²

I have ten tons of red sand. I call it silicon-gold. I sell one gram
of silicon-gold for ten dollars. Someone actually buys it on the
Internet (maybe it is a friend, maybe it is a fool). Then I say that
I am actually worth $100 million...and could I have credit for $100
million with ten tons of silicon-gold as collateral? This may look a
bit extreme, but I am I right to suppose that something of this sort
went on?

> Sixty years ago, Phillips writes, about 30 percent of the American gross
> domestic product was attributable to manufactures and about 10 percent
> to financial. The numbers now are approximately reversed. Until recent
> times the United States made its living across the globe by selling
> manufactures and raw material. In our time, however, under the aegis of
> the new economy the nation has tried to live by selling nugatory
> services of a vaguely financial nature to foreigners who have not been
> buying enough to keep the American economy from going deeper into the
> red, year upon year.

Ah foreigners, globalisation, etc.
>
> ³Š [T]his faith in finance was not new, but old‹and it played wayward
> Pied Piper to prior leading world economic powers,² Phillips writes. ³On
> the edge of decline the Spanish had gloried in their New World gold and
> silver; the Dutch, in their investment income and lending to princes and
> czarinas; and the British, in their banks, brokers, and global financial
> network. In none of these situations, however, could financial services
> succeed in upholding the national preeminence that had been earlier
> built by explorers, conquistadores, maritime skills, innovative science
> and engineering, the first railroads, electrical dynamos, and great iron
> and steel works. Invariably, power and greatness passed to new
> explorers, innovators, and industrialists.²

Great point. The US and the rest of the world could still be great if
they heeded new inventions, such as what I have been proposing so far
in vain...

> He quotes an admonitory passage to the same effect from a 1904 speech to
> his nationıs bankers by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain
> which might apply to the United States 104 years later: ³Granted that
> you are the clearinghouse of the world, [but] are you entirely beyond
> anxiety as to the permanence of your great position? ... Banking is not
> the creator of our prosperity, but it is the creation of it. It is not
> the cause of our wealth, but it is the consequence of our wealth.²

Another great point.

> With the ascendancy of finance comes the maldistribution of capital.
> Money is invested in the wrong places. Gigantic amounts of capital are
> borrowed for unproductive purpose, for things which have no payback.

Indeed. If only a small portion of all that money had been wisely
invested in the third world, giving it to the right people there (not
the Govt but responsible social service agencies) then the returns
would have been very handsome. There would have been a much richer
thirdworld able to buy firstworld stuff.

> ³The debt the United States has been piling on in the last few years has
> provided only 30-40 percent as much stimulus per dollar to the national
> economy as did the debt added 25 or 40 years ago. Why?² Phillips asks.
> ³Because money borrowed in 1970 or 1984 to be spent on factories, new
> jet fighter aircraft, teachers, or interstate highways had a lot more
> grassroots impact than money borrowed by 10,000 hedge funds to double
> the leverage of their various self-serving speculations.²
>
> Roads, factories, research, productive companies, education are
> undercapitalized, the money which might have been sent in their
> direction having been sucked off into the catastrophic frivolities of
> Wall Street, Greenwich, Conn., and wasteful finance.

For screwing up the economy, they get 40m salaries and bonuses and
soft landing on mattresses of tax money.


Capital which ought
> to have been used to lower costs and increase productivity was used to
> play the destructive games which have left once healthy corporate
> organizations gasping for breath, too weak to modernize, too depleted to
> compete and too fragile to prosper.

Dear o dear. How they are stuffed!

> The distraining of capital to all the wrong places was accompanied by
> the debt-credit explosion. As pesky and difficult as contending with
> public indebtedness, especially the federal deficit, is, Phillips
> foresaw that it is private-sector debt which is likely to destroy us. On
> this he quotes Warren Buffett, another figure who warned that the
> country was steering toward catastrophe: ³You canıt turn a financial
> toad into a prince by securitizing it. Š Wall Street started believing
> its own PR on this‹they started holding the stuff themselves, maybe
> because they couldnıt sell it. It worked wonderfully until it didnıt
> work at all. Wall Street is reaping what theyıve sown.²
>
> Beyond Wall Streetıs suffering for Wall Streetıs crimes, Phillips
> describes the American descent into a debt-dependent economy in which
> the most important activities have been building subdivisions and
> erecting malls with money borrowed from abroad. The middle-class masses
> drive home to the houses they cannot afford and zoom off to overly
> hypothecated malls, using oil they have no means to pay for, in order to
> incur additional debt on their credit cards.
>
> The risks of a financial system constructed of toothpicks were plain to
> Phillips and scores of others outside of it and to none within. With the
> assistance of battalions of idiot savants from MIT and Harvard, the much
> admired math ³quants,² the investment bankers boasted that they had
> found a way to ensure that the more borrowed the less the risk.

Ah, the perils of institutionalisation! And how many Nobel Laureates
in Economics were part of this party?

> While Wall Street entertained the fantasy that it had perfected an
> algorithm which had eliminated risk from the financial equation,


Fantasy indeed. Capitalism means risk-taking, otherwise it is steady-
state feudalism/cronyism/mafia.

> ordinary people were finding their lives increasingly uncertain. The
> ascent of Wall Street to something approximating total power, however
> brief that reign may be, has brought with it awareness of the
> disparities of wealth and income. Less publicity has been given to how
> much riskier life has become for Americaıs middle class.
>
> Ordinary families face a 1-in-5 chance of seeing their incomes drop by
> half, according to figures compiled before the present ³slowdown² or
> ³slump² or ³weakening² or recession. Phillips recalls the work of
> Harvardıs Elizabeth Warren, quoting her that ³middle-class families have
> been threatened on every front. Š Even with ...
>
> read more ğ
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Rod Speed

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Since: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 39



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:25 pm
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*Anarcissie* wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns,
>> the renationalisation of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans
>> that had lasted for 150 years, and which had survived the great
>> depression fine, or the complete collapse of the entire world's
>> financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.

> If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
> resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
> to predict that a breaking point will be reached,

That isnt anything like what brought it undone.

> but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur.

He didnt even predict that would happen, let alone predict when it would.

> It's like "When will the oil run out?"

Nope, nothing like. And oil will never run out either, it will just get more expensive.

> Eventually, the oil will run out,

Wrong.

> but rising prices might put off the date, or a war might advance it.

Thats not what happens either.
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*Anarcissie*

External


Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 105



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:58 am
Post subject: Re: Bad Money [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Nov 2, 9:40 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
> *Anarcissie* wrote
>
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns,
> >> the renationalisation of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans
> >> that had lasted for 150 years, and which had survived the great
> >> depression fine, or the complete collapse of the entire world's
> >> financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.
> > If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
> > resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
> > to predict that a breaking point will be reached,
>
> That isnt anything like what brought it undone.

That's a mighty generic statement you're refuting.
How about "all positive feedback loops blow up?"
An elementary truth from basic cybernetics.

> > but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur.
>
> He didnt even predict that would happen, let alone predict when it would.
>
> > It's like "When will the oil run out?"
>
> Nope, nothing like. And oil will never run out either, it will just get more expensive.
>
> > Eventually, the oil will run out,
>
> Wrong.
>
> > but rising prices might put off the date, or a war might advance it.
>
> Thats not what happens either.

Well, oil can get very expensive, which is just about like
running out. But as it gets more expensive, people will
use it less (probably). How can you say that's not what
happens?
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Marko Amnell

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Since: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 37



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:28 pm
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On Nov 3, 6:52 am, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Nov 3, 2:20 am, Anarcissie wrote:

[...]

> > ³Š [T]his faith in finance was not new, but old‹and it played wayward
> > Pied Piper to prior leading world economic powers,² Phillips writes. ³On
> > the edge of decline the Spanish had gloried in their New World gold and
> > silver; the Dutch, in their investment income and lending to princes and
> > czarinas; and the British, in their banks, brokers, and global financial
> > network. In none of these situations, however, could financial services
> > succeed in upholding the national preeminence that had been earlier
> > built by explorers, conquistadores, maritime skills, innovative science
> > and engineering, the first railroads, electrical dynamos, and great iron
> > and steel works. Invariably, power and greatness passed to new
> > explorers, innovators, and industrialists.²
>
> Great point.  The US and the rest of the world could still be great if
> they heeded new inventions, such as what I have been proposing so far
> in vain...

Phillips might have included ancient Rome as another example,
as the debasement of the currency was part of its economic
decline. The Roman empire was in such a bad crisis during the
third century (the "chaotic third century" as it's sometimes called)
when the monetary economy collapsed that it is miraculous that
it came back at all during the fourth century thanks to Constantine,
at great cost as the whole society was militarised to fend off the
external threats from the Barbarians and the East. Can America
pull off the same trick?

> > He quotes an admonitory passage to the same effect from a 1904 speech to
> > his nationıs bankers by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain
> > which might apply to the United States 104 years later: ³Granted that
> > you are the clearinghouse of the world, [but] are you entirely beyond
> > anxiety as to the permanence of your great position? ... Banking is not
> > the creator of our prosperity, but it is the creation of it. It is not
> > the cause of our wealth, but it is the consequence of our wealth.²
>
> Another great point.

Phillips' story of how production has declined and financial
speculation exploded in America over the last 25 years
reminds me of some of Cornelius Castoriadis' ruminations about
the decadence of late capitalism, its slow decline and
bureaucratisation. I couldn't find the exact passage it reminded
me of, but here is one bit I found, from his 1982 essay
"The Crisis of Western Societies" which is memorable
for the Pasteur quip:

"The absolute mental pauperization of the ruling strata is expressed
in the proclamations being made about the bankruptcy of Keynesianism
(which amounts to saying that our failure to contain cancer proves
Pasteur's bankruptcy), the fad of monetarism (a rehash of the old
quantitative theory of money, a tautology whose transformation into
an 'explanatory' theory has long been known to be fallacious), or new
demonological inventions like 'supply-side' economics."
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Rod Speed

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Since: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 39



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:25 pm
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*Anarcissie* wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> *Anarcissie* wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns,
>>>> the renationalisation of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans
>>>> that had lasted for 150 years, and which had survived the great
>>>> depression fine, or the complete collapse of the entire world's
>>>> financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.

>>> If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
>>> resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
>>> to predict that a breaking point will be reached,

>> That isnt anything like what brought it undone.

> That's a mighty generic statement you're refuting.

Irrevelant to whether that isnt what brought the system undone.

It wasnt the lack of credit that brought the system undone, it was toxic debt getting AAA ratings
that it never came even close to qualify for that produced a situation where it became completely
impossible to work out what quality of debt any financial institution had, and that meant that no one
was prepared to lend them anything when it wasnt clear what the risk of not getting it back was.

> How about "all positive feedback loops blow up?"

That wasnt what brought the world financial system undone either
and have fun explaining why it hadnt done that in the last 70 years.

> An elementary truth from basic cybernetics.

All positive feedback loops DONT blow up.

>>> but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur.

>> He didnt even predict that would happen, let alone predict when it would.

>>> It's like "When will the oil run out?"

>> Nope, nothing like. And oil will never run out either, it will just get more expensive.

>>> Eventually, the oil will run out,

>> Wrong.

>>> but rising prices might put off the date, or a war might advance it.

>> Thats not what happens either.

> Well, oil can get very expensive, which is just about like running out.

Nope, nothing like it, particularly when getting more expensive means
that there is a hell of a lot more oil that becomes available from shale
and oil sands and when it makes oil from coal etc viable.

And at the ultimate, when the price of oil is more expensive, it becomes
viable to use nuke power to produce oil from any source of carbon etc.

> But as it gets more expensive, people will use it less (probably).

Not necessarily, particularly if the oil is locally available instead of having to be imported.

> How can you say that's not what happens?

Thats nothing like what you previously claimed happens.
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Marko Amnell

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Since: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 37



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Bad Money [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Nov 3, 11:17 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
> Anarcissie wrote

[...]

> > [...] So we are talking about a 20-year period, not 70 years.
>
> Wrong. The current financial system has been in place since the great depression

That's total nonsense.There have been two major institutional changes
in the international financial system since the Great Depression,
Bretton Woods in 1944 which established fixed exchange rates
and Nixon's cancellation of the Bretton Woods system in 1971 when
the US stopped the direct convertibility of US dollars to gold.
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Anarcissie

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Since: Nov 02, 2008
Posts: 3



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:53 pm
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In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:

> *Anarcissie* wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> *Anarcissie* wrote
> >>> Rod Speed wrote
>
> >>>> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns,
> >>>> the renationalisation of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans
> >>>> that had lasted for 150 years, and which had survived the great
> >>>> depression fine, or the complete collapse of the entire world's
> >>>> financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.
>
> >>> If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
> >>> resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
> >>> to predict that a breaking point will be reached,
>
> >> That isnt anything like what brought it undone.
>
> > That's a mighty generic statement you're refuting.
>
> Irrevelant to whether that isnt what brought the system undone.
>
> It wasnt the lack of credit that brought the system undone, it was toxic debt
> getting AAA ratings
> that it never came even close to qualify for that produced a situation where
> it became completely
> impossible to work out what quality of debt any financial institution had,
> and that meant that no one
> was prepared to lend them anything when it wasnt clear what the risk of not
> getting it back was.
>
> > How about "all positive feedback loops blow up?"
>
> That wasnt what brought the world financial system undone either
> and have fun explaining why it hadnt done that in the last 70 years.

The first time I noticed what I believe became the
regular policy of the FRB was in 1987, when to avert
a stock market crash, specialists were told they could
have all the money they wanted as long as they kept
the market from crashing. I suppose the policy might
have been in place before that, but not too long before.
So we are talking about a 20-year period, not 70 years.
Furthermore I don't think the inflation of credit became
standing policy until around 2000. And that is when
we begin to see the real estate bubble. It takes time
for something of that size to take hold and grow.

I regard building an unstable system as the cause
of the system crashing, although one can usually
find some more proximate cause. If you build
a house of cards and someone sneezes and it falls
down, you can say the sneeze made it fall down,
but its fall was inherent in the building design.

> > An elementary truth from basic cybernetics.
>
> All positive feedback loops DONT blow up.

All undamped positive feedback loops blow up, at
least in a finite universe.

> >>> but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur.
>
> >> He didnt even predict that would happen, let alone predict when it would.
>
> >>> It's like "When will the oil run out?"
>
> >> Nope, nothing like. And oil will never run out either, it will just get
> >> more expensive.
>
> >>> Eventually, the oil will run out,
>
> >> Wrong.
>
> >>> but rising prices might put off the date, or a war might advance it.
>
> >> Thats not what happens either.
>
> > Well, oil can get very expensive, which is just about like running out.
>
> Nope, nothing like it, particularly when getting more expensive means
> that there is a hell of a lot more oil that becomes available from shale
> and oil sands and when it makes oil from coal etc viable.
>
> And at the ultimate, when the price of oil is more expensive, it becomes
> viable to use nuke power to produce oil from any source of carbon etc.
>
> > But as it gets more expensive, people will use it less (probably).
>
> Not necessarily, particularly if the oil is locally available instead of
> having to be imported.

If oil becomes more expensive, people won't use less of
it?


> > How can you say that's not what happens?
>
> Thats nothing like what you previously claimed happens.
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Rod Speed

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Since: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 39



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:25 pm
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Anarcissie wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Anarcissie wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Anarcissie wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>> Phillips never predicted anything like the demise of Bear Stearns,
>>>>>> the renationalisation of Fanny and Freddy, the demise of Lehmans
>>>>>> that had lasted for 150 years, and which had survived the great
>>>>>> depression fine, or the complete collapse of the entire world's
>>>>>> financial sysem, or effects like Iceland.

>>>>> If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
>>>>> resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
>>>>> to predict that a breaking point will be reached,

>>>> That isnt anything like what brought it undone.

>>> That's a mighty generic statement you're refuting.

>> Irrevelant to whether that isnt what brought the system undone.

>> It wasnt the lack of credit that brought the system undone,
>> it was toxic debt getting AAA ratings that it never came
>> even close to qualify for that produced a situation where
>> it became completely impossible to work out what quality
>> of debt any financial institution had, and that meant that
>> no one was prepared to lend them anything when it
>> wasnt clear what the risk of not getting it back was.

>>> How about "all positive feedback loops blow up?"

>> That wasnt what brought the world financial system undone either
>> and have fun explaining why it hadnt done that in the last 70 years.

> The first time I noticed what I believe became the regular policy
> of the FRB was in 1987, when to avert a stock market crash,
> specialists were told they could have all the money they
> wanted as long as they kept the market from crashing.

Thats nothing even remotely resembling anything like what actually happened.

> I suppose the policy might have been in place before that,

It wasnt even policy at that time.

> but not too long before. So we are talking about a 20-year period, not 70 years.

Wrong. The current financial system has been in place since the great depression
and not only isnt it a positive feedback system, it hasnt 'blown up' in that time either.

> Furthermore I don't think the inflation of credit became standing policy until around 2000.

You're just plain wrong on that too.

And even if it was, and it isnt, have fun explaining why the american financial system
blew up and that of Canada and Australia which had the same expansion of credit didnt.

The reason is that Canada and Australia didnt have anything like
the same terminal stupidity of securitized sub prime bundled loans
getting AAA ratings that they didnt even come close to warranting.

> And that is when we begin to see the real estate bubble.

Yes, but Australia and Canada had real estate bubbles too and
they didnt get their banks imploding very spectacularly indeed.

> It takes time for something of that size to take hold and grow.

Sure, but Australia and Canada had real estate bubbles too and
they didnt get their banks imploding very spectacularly indeed.

> I regard building an unstable system as the cause of the system crashing,

Have fun explaining why Canada and Australia didnt see their banks imploding very spectacularly indeed.

> although one can usually find some more proximate cause.
> If you build a house of cards and someone sneezes and it
> falls down, you can say the sneeze made it fall down,
> but its fall was inherent in the building design.

Have fun explaining why Canada and Australia didnt see their banks imploding very spectacularly indeed.

>>> An elementary truth from basic cybernetics.

>> All positive feedback loops DONT blow up.

> All undamped positive feedback loops blow up,

Pity the american financial system isnt anything like an undamped positive feedback loop.

> at least in a finite universe.

>>>>> but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly when and where it will occur.

>>>> He didnt even predict that would happen, let alone predict when it would.

>>>>> It's like "When will the oil run out?"

>>>> Nope, nothing like. And oil will never run out either, it will just get more expensive.

>>>>> Eventually, the oil will run out,

>>>> Wrong.

>>>>> but rising prices might put off the date, or a war might advance it.

>>>> Thats not what happens either.

>>> Well, oil can get very expensive, which is just about like running out.

>> Nope, nothing like it, particularly when getting more expensive means
>> that there is a hell of a lot more oil that becomes available from shale
>> and oil sands and when it makes oil from coal etc viable.

>> And at the ultimate, when the price of oil is more expensive, it becomes
>> viable to use nuke power to produce oil from any source of carbon etc.

>>> But as it gets more expensive, people will use it less (probably).

>> Not necessarily, particularly if the oil is locally available instead of having to be imported.

> If oil becomes more expensive, people won't use less of it?

Not necessarily, particularly when its a relatively small part of their outgoings.

The most you might see is less terminal stupidity like very long daily commutes in single person fluffed up trucks.

>>> How can you say that's not what happens?

>> Thats nothing like what you previously claimed happens.
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Rod Speed

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Since: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 39



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:25 pm
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Marko Amnell wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Anarcissie wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Anarcissie wrote

>>>>> How about "all positive feedback loops blow up?"

>>>> That wasnt what brought the world financial system undone either
>>>> and have fun explaining why it hadnt done that in the last 70 years.

>>> The first time I noticed what I believe became the regular policy
>>> of the FRB was in 1987, when to avert a stock market crash,
>>> specialists were told they could have all the money they
>>> wanted as long as they kept the market from crashing.

>> Thats nothing even remotely resembling anything like what actually happened.

>>> I suppose the policy might have been in place before that,

>> It wasnt even policy at that time.

> but not too long before. So we are talking about a 20-year period, not 70 years.

>> Wrong. The current financial system has been in place since the great depression

> That's total nonsense.

We'll see...

> There have been two major institutional changes in the
> international financial system since the Great Depression,
> Bretton Woods in 1944 which established fixed exchange rates
> and Nixon's cancellation of the Bretton Woods system in 1971
> when the US stopped the direct convertibility of US dollars to gold.

Irrelevant to what what being discussed, what caused the world financial system to blow up.
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adda12342

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Since: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 117



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:25 pm
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"Marko Amnell" wrote in message

On Nov 3, 6:52 am, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Nov 3, 2:20 am, Anarcissie wrote:

[...]

> > ³Š [T]his faith in finance was not new, but old‹and it played wayward
> > Pied Piper to prior leading world economic powers,² Phillips writes. ³On
> > the edge of decline the Spanish had gloried in their New World gold and
> > silver; the Dutch, in their investment income and lending to princes and
> > czarinas; and the British, in their banks, brokers, and global financial
> > network. In none of these situations, however, could financial services
> > succeed in upholding the national preeminence that had been earlier
> > built by explorers, conquistadores, maritime skills, innovative science
> > and engineering, the first railroads, electrical dynamos, and great iron
> > and steel works. Invariably, power and greatness passed to new
> > explorers, innovators, and industrialists.²
>
> Great point. The US and the rest of the world could still be great if
> they heeded new inventions, such as what I have been proposing so far
> in vain...

Phillips might have included ancient Rome as another example,
as the debasement of the currency was part of its economic
decline. The Roman empire was in such a bad crisis during the
third century (the "chaotic third century" as it's sometimes called)
when the monetary economy collapsed that it is miraculous that
it came back at all during the fourth century thanks to Constantine,
at great cost as the whole society was militarised to fend off the
external threats from the Barbarians and the East. Can America
pull off the same trick?

AB: I see no reason why not, after all they have not been badly nuked in a
Cold War turned hot. The current mishap to be fixed needs deep
soul-searching for the Americans, and renewal based upon real physics,
environmentally sound engineering, much higher morality (meaning descending
from a much higher sense of shame, moderation, sobriety, honesty) , and
great and mature effort with proper accounting processes. They are still
united, and that is their best hope. I do hope they can pull it off. It
did not pay for the British to be clever and evil in the long run; still
less does it pay to be stupid and evil. Your comparison with the Roman
Empire is apt. When they were not corrupt, and austere as well, the Romans
could do anything. When they got corrupt, and succumbed to luxury, they
crumbled. A corruption of the democratic process seems to have put the most
worthless Americans in the top positions - this situation is also there in
other democratic countries as well, and must be reversed. Throwing out
researchers from their jobs, and putting smooth highly paid con-men in
charge instead, is not a good idea for the economy.

> > He quotes an admonitory passage to the same effect from a 1904 speech to
> > his nationıs bankers by British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain
> > which might apply to the United States 104 years later: ³Granted that
> > you are the clearinghouse of the world, [but] are you entirely beyond
> > anxiety as to the permanence of your great position? ... Banking is not
> > the creator of our prosperity, but it is the creation of it. It is not
> > the cause of our wealth, but it is the consequence of our wealth.²
>
> Another great point.

Phillips' story of how production has declined and financial
speculation exploded in America over the last 25 years
reminds me of some of Cornelius Castoriadis' ruminations about
the decadence of late capitalism, its slow decline and
bureaucratisation. I couldn't find the exact passage it reminded
me of, but here is one bit I found, from his 1982 essay
"The Crisis of Western Societies" which is memorable
for the Pasteur quip:

"The absolute mental pauperization of the ruling strata is expressed
in the proclamations being made about the bankruptcy of Keynesianism
(which amounts to saying that our failure to contain cancer proves
Pasteur's bankruptcy), the fad of monetarism (a rehash of the old
quantitative theory of money, a tautology whose transformation into
an 'explanatory' theory has long been known to be fallacious), or new
demonological inventions like 'supply-side' economics."

AB: I do not understand this, my own thinking is of the Star Trek kind.
That is, to make so much wealth so well with science, that all human needs
are met and there is no need for money. You just get what you want, and
your high sense of morality prevents you from wrong and extravagance. Most
certainly I do not think this to be hopelessly optimistic - I believe there
is a good chance I will be part of such a society if before I die. And why
not, when I wrote a paper "A New Method for Partial-Match Retrieval" in 1987
I explained what is now the most common google search to Mrs. Banerjee. In
those days, I had to motorcycle 20Km to access the nearest computer. She
now competes with me for the use of our computer - another incredible thing!
So I have got a wireless router, let us see how this works...
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Rod Speed

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Since: Aug 17, 2008
Posts: 39



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:25 pm
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Arindam Banerjee wrote
> Marko Amnell wrote
>> Arindam Banerjee wrote
>>> Anarcissie wrote

>>>> [T]his faith in finance was not new, but old‹and it played
>>>> wayward Pied Piper to prior leading world economic powers,²
>>>> Phillips writes. ³On the edge of decline the Spanish had gloried in
>>>> their New World gold and silver; the Dutch, in their investment
>>>> income and lending to princes and czarinas; and the British, in
>>>> their banks, brokers, and global financial network. In none of
>>>> these situations, however, could financial services succeed in
>>>> upholding the national preeminence that had been earlier built by
>>>> explorers, conquistadores, maritime skills, innovative science and
>>>> engineering, the first railroads, electrical dynamos, and great
>>>> iron and steel works. Invariably, power and greatness passed to new explorers, innovators, and industrialists.²

>>> Great point. The US and the rest of the world could still be great if they heeded new inventions, such as what I
>>> have been proposing so far in vain...

They've heeded plenty of new inventions, just not the useless ones you are keen on.

>> Phillips might have included ancient Rome as another example,
>> as the debasement of the currency was part of its economic
>> decline. The Roman empire was in such a bad crisis during the
>> third century (the "chaotic third century" as it's sometimes called)
>> when the monetary economy collapsed that it is miraculous that
>> it came back at all during the fourth century thanks to Constantine,
>> at great cost as the whole society was militarised to fend off the
>> external threats from the Barbarians and the East. Can America
>> pull off the same trick?

> I see no reason why not, after all they have not been badly nuked
> in a Cold War turned hot. The current mishap to be fixed needs deep
> soul-searching for the Americans, and renewal based upon real physics,
> environmentally sound engineering, much higher morality (meaning
> descending from a much higher sense of shame, moderation, sobriety,
> honesty) , and great and mature effort with proper accounting processes.

We managed the longest boom in world history without any of that.

All we actually need to do is to put decent controls in place to ensure
that the entire world's financial system cant be brought down by fools.

> They are still united, and that is their best hope.

They dont need to be united to do what is necessary, just have
Congress with enough of a clue to do what needs to be done.

> I do hope they can pull it off.

Corse they can. The system that survived the great depression,
two world wars, the cold war, quite a few terminally stupid
pointless wars like Vietnam, etc etc etc, can survive this fine.

> It did not pay for the British to be clever and evil in the long run;

Yes it did. They ended up with a very decent standard of living,
which saw hordes from their old colonys decide that they liked
that a lot better than where they came from, even when its a
rather cold soggy little island with one hell of a class system.

> still less does it pay to be stupid and evil.

No system that is stupid can survive the great depression,
two world wars, the cold war, quite a few terminally stupid
pointless wars like Vietnam, etc etc etc.

> Your comparison with the Roman Empire is apt.

Nope, the world's moved on and america is
at no risk whatever of ever being invaded now.

> When they were not corrupt, and austere as well, the Romans could do anything.

No they couldnt. Have a look at what happened in the Teutenberg Forest sometime.

> When they got corrupt, and succumbed to luxury, they crumbled. A corruption of the democratic process seems to have
> put the most worthless Americans in the top positions

You always end up with some complete duds in any real democracy.

> - this situation is also there in other democratic countries as well,

Whatever the downsides with democracy, the alternatives are all much worse.

At least with the american system a dud only gets 8 years at most and the voters
have the opportunity to get rid of him after 4 if they decide that he's hopeless.

> and must be reversed.

Not even possible.

> Throwing out researchers from their jobs, and putting smooth highly
> paid con-men in charge instead, is not a good idea for the economy.

Have fun explaining the longest boom in the whole of world history and an
unemployment rate many countrys would give their eye teeth for, even when
hordes of jobs had moved offshore and hordes of immigrants were allowed in.

Have a look at what Japan managed in the same time.

>>>> He quotes an admonitory passage to the same effect from a 1904
>>>> speech to his nationıs bankers by British Colonial Secretary Joseph
>>>> Chamberlain which might apply to the United States 104 years later:
>>>> ³Granted that you are the clearinghouse of the world, [but] are you
>>>> entirely beyond anxiety as to the permanence of your great
>>>> position? ... Banking is not the creator of our prosperity, but it
>>>> is the creation of it. It is not the cause of our wealth, but it is
>>>> the consequence of our wealth.²

>>> Another great point.

>> Phillips' story of how production has declined and financial
>> speculation exploded in America over the last 25 years
>> reminds me of some of Cornelius Castoriadis' ruminations about
>> the decadence of late capitalism, its slow decline and
>> bureaucratisation. I couldn't find the exact passage it reminded
>> me of, but here is one bit I found, from his 1982 essay
>> "The Crisis of Western Societies" which is memorable
>> for the Pasteur quip:

>> "The absolute mental pauperization of the ruling strata is expressed
>> in the proclamations being made about the bankruptcy of Keynesianism
>> (which amounts to saying that our failure to contain cancer proves
>> Pasteur's bankruptcy), the fad of monetarism (a rehash of the old
>> quantitative theory of money, a tautology whose transformation into
>> an 'explanatory' theory has long been known to be fallacious), or new demonological inventions like 'supply-side'
>> economics."

> I do not understand this, my own thinking is of the Star Trek kind. That is, to make so much wealth so well with
> science, that all human needs are met and there is no need for money. You just get what you want, and your high sense
> of morality prevents you from wrong and extravagance.

There there's the real world outside fiction.

> Most certainly I do not think this to be hopelessly optimistic - I believe there is a good chance I will be part of
> such a society if before I die.

I dont, particularly with that last.

> And why not, when I wrote a paper "A New Method for Partial-Match Retrieval" in 1987 I explained what is now the most
> common google search to Mrs. Banerjee. In those days, I had to motorcycle 20Km to access the nearest computer. She
> now competes with me for the use of our computer - another incredible
> thing! So I have got a wireless router, let us see how this works...
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James A. Donald

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Since: Nov 04, 2008
Posts: 11



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:25 pm
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On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:01:03 -0800 (PST), "*Anarcissie*"
> If someone or something is constantly using up a
> limited resource (like credit) in a complex system it
> is not hard to predict that a breaking point will be
> reached, but it is pretty hard to pinpoint exactly
> when and where it will occur.

In 2005, it became pretty damned obvious that the
collapse of "the total financial system" would start
with Freddy and Fanny, and that aspect of the crisis WAS
accurately predicted.

The details of the crisis were not predicted, because
the details were chaotic and accidental, but that the
crisis was coming, and would wreak major havoc, was
predicted.

I thought that the people who had been writing these dud
mortgages would simply be allowed to fail, and that these
gigantic defaults would put an end to the crisis, but
somewhat to my surprise, this simple solution has not
been permitted, and so the crisis continues, and the end
is not in sight.

The nationalization of most of the banking system seems
to have stabilized things, and perhaps that will suffice
for a time, possibly a decade or so, but that measure is
more of what produced the crisis in the first place,
like a drunk with delirium tremens drinking whisky to
calm his nerves.

In Japan, a somewhat analogous solution - by law
everyone was required to pretend that financial
institutions were solvent, when it was obvious they were
not - produced a false stability of stagnation.

During the housing bubble, I knew pretty much what was
going to happen next, until we got to this phase, when
the government has gathered all the reigns of finance its
own hands and is about to spur the horse in who knows
what direction? Now, I know not what will happen next.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
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James A. Donald

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Since: Nov 04, 2008
Posts: 11



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:25 pm
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*Anarcissie* wrote
> > If someone or something is constantly using up a limited
> > resource (like credit) in a complex system it is not hard
> > to predict that a breaking point will be reached,

"Rod Speed"
> That isnt anything like what brought it undone.

We had extraordinarily easy credit, particularly to minorities, and a
government policy of extraordinarily easy credit, particularly to
minorities. It is not hard to connect the dots.

The primary justification and function of the Government Sponsored
Enterprises such as Fannie May and Freddy Mac was making credit
available to buy homes, particularly to non traditional home buyers.

And that is where the crisis started, with Government Sponsored
Enterprises, then the crisis spread to too-big-to-fail enterprises.
It is not hard to connect the dots, particularly when people had been
predicting this crisis for quite a while - libertarians had been
predicting it, the radical right has been predicting it, and to a
lesser extent the radical left has been predicting it - by and large
outsiders were more inclined to complain about the emperor's nakedness
than insiders.

Republicans were also more inclined to complain than Democrats,
because the Government Sponsored Enterprise accounting scandals were
connected to friends of Clinton, and Democrat voting blocks.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
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