Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers

On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 07:05:01 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor.TakeThisOut@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
>
>>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
>>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
>>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
>>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
>>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
>
>Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
>minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
>Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than the
>average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.
Thanks for the info. However, I am not aware of any evidence for
Lewis being "in yer face" regarding Catholicism, save for slighting it
by not choosing it.

>
>>Stream of consciousness 3
>>
>>Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
>>Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
>>given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
>>seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
>>rankled them so?
>
>I thought Sayers was a semi-inkling. They criticised each others work,
>sometimes quite harshly.

It seemed almost personal in this case, now where is that book...
I suspect sexism, which is a card over played at times, but can be
true. (Also, if Sayers modeled Harriet Vane on herself, I suspect she
could be a bit grating.

(I am leaving in the Xposts since they seem to actually be relevant

Regards

--
Sindamor Pandaturion
[remove -remove- to reply]
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 05:36:35 GMT, Sindamor RemoveThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 07:05:01 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesmstw RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor RemoveThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
>>
>>>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
>>>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
>>>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
>>>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
>>>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
>>
>>Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
>>minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
>>Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than the
>>average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.

>Thanks for the info. However, I am not aware of any evidence for
>Lewis being "in yer face" regarding Catholicism, save for slighting it
>by not choosing it.

No, he wasn't -- it was a perception in Tolkin's mind rather than Lewis's.


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

Sindamor.TakeThisOut@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
> Stream of consciousness 1
> A while back I read Heaney's translation of Beowful, with a nice
> little tribute in the introduction to JRRT's "The monster and the
> Critics". And, since there was a Beowulf movie coming out I thought
> it's nice to read something that is not too distorted from the
> original.
>
> Then I read where he uses an Ulster Irish term to describe something
> as part of the translation. And I wondered, why? It is not to lend a
> nuance since most would not grasp it, it seems like an author fiat, I
> can do it, so I shall. Very odd.

In part, because it was apt. "A tarn hag" is a darn good translation!
I know a large number of my fellow Anglo-Saxonists LOATHE the Heaney
translation, but I am not one of them. I would never use it as a pony
to help translate Beowulf, but as a work of artistic literature, it
stands very well. And having taught it to undergrads, I think it just
as good as any other translation, better than a number.

> On the other hand a very good read, I had forgotten how good it was,
> and pleasent to come across a reference to an Eomer
>
> Stream of consciousness 2
>
> I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
> conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
> what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
> is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
> Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.

Remember a few things. While in our secular society now such strong
religious feelings wherein one denomination or stripe has significant
problems with another are incomprehensible to us, they were part of the
world pre-WWII. In many ways, the Protestant Reformation was still
being waged even in the 20t century! Anyway, on a theological level,
the RC has a claim that it is the TRUE church going all the way back to
Jesus himself, and that these "Prots", including the Anglicans, are at
best heterodox for throwing off the authority of God's anointed church
started by the Son of God himself. Prots naturally didn't see it that
way, but saw a corrupt organization that placed the "teaching authority"
of the organization above the very word of God revealed in the Bible
etc. And of course there's the "smells and bells" of the
liturgy.....anyway, religious feeling could very well cost a promotion
if one was the "wrong" religion, even in 1920s.

On a personal level, there is nothing quite so fast in their beliefs as
the convert and the persecuted. Remember that Tolkien's Mum had
converted to Catholicism when the boys were quite young, and that the
whole family suffered poverty for it, and then Mom died young. So on
top of the social forces, there's the personal and psychological
attachments to his faith, the one true faith. When he good friend did
not side with him and choose to be RC, it was a blow. THey could never
quite be "we RCs in faith against the world".

Lewis' choice may have been fueled not only by his Ulster background,
but that he specialized in particular in Protestant, "Anglican" writers:
Spenser, Milton, etc. Sure, he also wrote about pre-Protestant
Reformation writers, Dante, the Romance tradition, and so
on...nonetheless his interest in Renaissance writers I think may have
had a little to do with it. I find, for example, Spenser esp. hard to
teach because of the explicit anti-Catholic sentiments, its hard to get
that across to students who don't otherwise care about religion.


> Stream of consciousness 3
>
> Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
> Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
> given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
> seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
> rankled them so?

I don't recall Lewis being that disdainful of Sayers, and while Tolkien
did not like Busman's Holiday (one of my least favorite too), I do
believe he enjoyed earlier books in the series.
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

<Sindamor RemoveThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr> wrote in message > Thanks for the info.
However, I am not aware of any evidence for
> Lewis being "in yer face" regarding Catholicism, save for slighting it
> by not choosing it.
Lewis never criticized the Catholic Church. C. S. Lewis corresponded for
years with Father Don Giovanni Calabria (friend of the poor and tireless
for unity and beatified in Verona, April 17, 1988).Father Calabria founded
of the Casa Buoni Fanciulli and authored several publications, especially on
Christian unity. It was a hope C. S. Lewis fully shared with Father John.
The letters are touching and informative. The originals are in Wheaton
College, but can be read in the book, The Latin Letters of C. S. Lewis.
Father John first wrote to CSL on September 1, 1947 after he read the
Italian translation of the Screwtape Letters (Le Lettere di Berlicche) .
Lewis repeatedly states in those letters that schism in the church is sin.
The two men write of the joy each had in the other's work.
--The Latin Letters of C. S. Lewis (and Don Biovanni Calabria), Translated
and edited by Martin Moyhihan, St. Augustine's Press, South Bend, Indiana,
1998
By the way, Lewis wrote to Father John in Latin- and the Latin is printed in
the book on the left pages, English translation on the right.

>>I thought Sayers was a semi-inkling.
Probably so. She didn't attend the meetings often.
>They criticised each others work,
>>sometimes quite harshly.

All the Inklings criticized each other's work, and stringently at times.
Witness the Barfield/Lewis wars, etc.
Lewis does make the comment that women present at a social gathering changed
things.
He enjoyed the free give and take of his male friends. His attitude changed
a great deal after Joy came into his life, however. You can read all this
for yourself- it's rather well documented.
>
> It seemed almost personal in this case, now where is that book...
> I suspect sexism, which is a card over played at times, but can be
> true. (Also, if Sayers modeled Harriet Vane on herself, I suspect she
> could be a bit grating.

Sayers did have a certain reputation as being rather strident at times.
Certainly not a push-over type. The sexism charge one hears today about all
of this is a modern term and a take on relationships people had many years
ago. The term sexism or sexist is simply inappropriate in relation to
anything C. S. Lewis said or did.

Blessings,
Ann
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

Sindamor DeleteThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
> I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
> conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
> what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
> is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
> Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.

He was intentionally neutral in his religious writings, but he made no
secret of being personally Church of England. He was /not/ Ulster
Protestant (except in childhood, before his atheist period); indeed, if
anything, he was rather inclined to the other side, personally believing
in Purgatory. The only thing he had in common with Ulster Protestantism
was a tendency to protest against traditionally non-Protestant forms of
worship replacing the Book of Common Prayer in the Church of England,
but he always stated it in terms, not of "no Pope here", but rather of
the C of E making up its mind just what it did and did not believe,
putting it in writing, and then observing it, whatever it was, rather
than just letting things drift and allowing rival parties to form.

> Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
> Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
> given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
> seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
> rankled them so?

That isn't true; Tolkien didn't like Harriet Vane -- I don't know why --
but liked the early Lord Peter novels. Lewis didn't like detective
stories as such, but his relationship with Sayers was friendly -- even
affectionate, and I believe he liked her non-detective works.

--
John W. Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like
That. ...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not
because it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it
is violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

<Sindamor.DeleteThis@Pandaturion.mor.dr> skrev i meddelandet
news:9f54945kldi81mkf5dssq1rfnp7vukbfkl@4ax.com...
> Stream of consciousness 1
> A while back I read Heaney's translation of Beowful, with a nice
> little tribute in the introduction to JRRT's "The monster and the
> Critics". And, since there was a Beowulf movie coming out I thought
> it's nice to read something that is not too distorted from the
> original.
>
> Then I read where he uses an Ulster Irish term to describe something
> as part of the translation. And I wondered, why? It is not to lend a
> nuance since most would not grasp it, it seems like an author fiat, I
> can do it, so I shall. Very odd.

Some people apparently call Heaney's translation "Heaneywulf" because he
takes such liberties with the text.

[snip]

> Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
> Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
> given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
> seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
> rankled them so?

Probably the fact that "Busman's Honeymoon" is a quite bad book, and it
seems they both had had it with Sayers' appalling social snobbery, which
reached new depths in that book.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:506594ttifudupu9netv6nd148p65q06b1@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor.TakeThisOut@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
>
>>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
>>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
>>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
>>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
>>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
>
> Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
> minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
> Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than
> the
> average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.

I have no recollection of Lewis being contemptuous of Catholicism. If
anything, the boot was on the other foot; Tolkien despised the Church of
England and was very disappointed that Lewis did not become a Catholic when
he embraced Christianity.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 19:22:56 +0200, Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang> wrote:

>"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:506594ttifudupu9netv6nd148p65q06b1@4ax.com...
>
>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor.DeleteThis@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
>>
>>>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
>>>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
>>>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
>>>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
>>>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
>>
>> Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
>> minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
>> Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than
>> the
>> average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.
>
>I have no recollection of Lewis being contemptuous of Catholicism. If
>anything, the boot was on the other foot; Tolkien despised the Church of
>England and was very disappointed that Lewis did not become a Catholic when
>he embraced Christianity.

While Lewis was not at all contemptuous of Catholicism (at one point,
he characterized the Pope, speak ex cathedra, as asking to be listened
to as an expert on certain matters, or words to that effect), strife
between Protestants and Catholics was not unusual at that time.

Indeed, I recently found, among leaflets from my Grandfather's estate,
and so certainly from before 1978, probably from the 1950's, a card
bewailing the curtailment of Freedom of Speech in the USA. Only on the
back, in the next-to-the-last paragraph, is the point revealed: the
author was being prevented from attacking Roman Catholicism. Since it
is not actually possible to prevent someone from attacking anything
they want in the USA in most contexts, one must presume that the
author had been told to stop doing so /in his sermons/ by either his
church council or his synod president or other higher authority.

I say "probably in the 1950's" because, late in that decade, such
attacks began to be discouraged in our local congregation. Which was,
of course, a good thing.

There was also a book, /The Riddle of Roman Catholicism/, which
promised to contain criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church by a Roman
Catholic, his intent being to put an end to sectarian conflict, also
in the USA.
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

In article <9f54945kldi81mkf5dssq1rfnp7vukbfkl.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
Sindamor.TakeThisOut@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:

>
> Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
> Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
> given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
> seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
> rankled them so?
>

Sayers and Lewis wrote many friendly letters to each other; some[1] of
these are reprinted in the collected letters of the two authors. I
don't see any personal disdain there; but both were ready to give and
receive forthright criticism of their literary work.

Lewis did not like the detective-story genre, and for all I know never
even read the Peter Wimsey books.

[1] Not all. Confound it.

--
Christopher J. Henrich
chenrich.TakeThisOut@monmouth.com
htp://www.mathinteract.com
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor RemoveThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
>
>>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
>>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
>>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
>>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
>>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
>
> Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
> minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
> Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than
> the average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.

Naturally, but that was only because in England we were able to convince
ourselves that there were no Catholics, and essentially hadn't been, except
for the odd little flare-up, since Henry VIII.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> <Sindamor DeleteThis @Pandaturion.mor.dr> skrev i meddelandet
> news:9f54945kldi81mkf5dssq1rfnp7vukbfkl@4ax.com...
>
>> Stream of consciousness 1
>> A while back I read Heaney's translation of Beowful, with a nice
>> little tribute in the introduction to JRRT's "The monster and the
>> Critics". And, since there was a Beowulf movie coming out I thought
>> it's nice to read something that is not too distorted from the
>> original.
>>
>> Then I read where he uses an Ulster Irish term to describe something
>> as part of the translation. And I wondered, why? It is not to lend a
>> nuance since most would not grasp it, it seems like an author fiat, I
>> can do it, so I shall. Very odd.
>
>
> Some people apparently call Heaney's translation "Heaneywulf" because he
> takes such liberties with the text.

He isn't liberal nor is he literal. He is much influenced by the notes
of Fr. Klaeber.

>
> [snip]
>
>> Speaking of Inklings and the periphery, one person both Lewis and
>> Tolkien seemed to share a disdain for was Dorothy L. Sayers. Odd,
>> given that she was a gifted Christian aplogist, but Tolkien really
>> seemed quite offended by her Busman's Holiday. Any ideas why she
>> rankled them so?
>
>
> Probably the fact that "Busman's Honeymoon" is a quite bad book, and it
> seems they both had had it with Sayers' appalling social snobbery, which
> reached new depths in that book.
>
> Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 23:52:16 UTC, Derek Broughton <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:

> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:55:22 GMT, Sindamor.RemoveThis@Pandaturion.mor.dr wrote:
> >
> >>I have always been puzzled by Tolkien's unhappiness with CS Lewis's
> >>conversion, instead of to Catholicism as Tolkien hoped, but rather to
> >>what he described as Ulster Protestantism. Does anyone know what that
> >>is all about? I've always heard CSL described as mainstream
> >>Christianity without overt doctrinal affiliation.
> >
> > Lewis was Anglican, and also from Ulster. In Ireland Anglicanism was a
> > minority religion, and tended distinguish itself selfconsciously from the
> > Catholics. It tended to be a bit more "in yer face" towards Catholics than
> > the average member of the Church of England of Lewis's generation.
>
> Naturally, but that was only because in England we were able to convince
> ourselves that there were no Catholics, and essentially hadn't been, except
> for the odd little flare-up, since Henry VIII.

Surely you mean, no *Roman* Catholics. Plenty of Anglicans consider
the C of E to be an integral part of the Universal (Catholic) Christian
Church, regardless of that unfortunate problem they had a while ago with
the excessive assertion of authority from Rome.

A bit of my perspective on this comes from Dorothy L Sayers, whose more
ignorant and narrow-minded characters (in the 1920s and 30s) are
suspicious of any High Church pastor in their C of E, and are doubtful
about anything that will "give a handle to the Papists", and may refer to
someone too High-Church as "practically a Roaming Catholic". Naturally,
she did not share these sentiments, but I've no reason to doubt her
reportage, whether in the novels or in the social and religious essays.

Which is not to say that they C of E folk were not less in your face than
the Ulster Protestants; which in turn is not to say (though Tolkien
apparently thought it) that Lewis was that stereotypical sort of Ulster
Protestant.

--
Dan Drake
dd.RemoveThis@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers 

Dan Drake wrote:

> Surely you mean, no *Roman* Catholics. Plenty of Anglicans consider
> the C of E to be an integral part of the Universal (Catholic) Christian
> Church, regardless of that unfortunate problem they had a while ago with
> the excessive assertion of authority from Rome.

Sorry, how unusually sloppy of me. I am in fact of that variety (lapsed)...

--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Beowulf, Tolkien, Lewis, Sayers