What's the Big Deal about Messiah Complex

"Dan McEwen" <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A335DBC55C98McEwen@130.133.1.4...
>> So what does it mean when Scarlet Witch say "no more mutant"? No more
>> mutants with human parents? Or does it mean that existing mutants
>> cannot pass down their powers to their children?
>
> It means the x-factor vanished from most of humanity, as did the
> potential for it to occur in new births.

This was the whole argument as to why House of M world cannot exist. Almost
all mutants have humans as parents and siblings and how could they
discriminate against their own family? Heck, they might have to
discriminate against their own children as well.
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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:59:26 GMT, "Kenneth M. Lin"
<kenneth_m_lin DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>For example, Siren has the exact
>same power as Banshee but Quicksilver's daughter is normal (In)human.

They did "explain" that in her first appearances - it's only fallen by
the wayside since the end of the 90s: Siryn's powers are slightly
different to Banshee's: she can talk while she's screaming (really!)
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CleV <clJUNKv1 DeleteThis @balcab.ch> wrote in
news:7flsp394ed7q466hfnkkob9fvco7vvgrod@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:59:26 GMT, "Kenneth M. Lin"
> <kenneth_m_lin DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>For example, Siren has the exact
>>same power as Banshee but Quicksilver's daughter is normal (In)human.
>
> They did "explain" that in her first appearances - it's only fallen by
> the wayside since the end of the 90s: Siryn's powers are slightly
> different to Banshee's: she can talk while she's screaming (really!)

Except, as you said, it's fallen by the wayside. Banshee eventually
learned to do the same.
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On Jan 28, 4:59 am, "Kenneth M. Lin" <kenneth_m_....TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> After years of reading X-titles, I am still unsure what constitutes a
> mutant.  Specifically, what happens when a child is produced by one or two
> mutant parents?  By definition a mutant is someone possessing attributes
> that are not passed down from his/her parents so there's a need for a second
> term to indicate mutant offsprings.  There's been so few second-generation
> "mutants" in MU that it's hard to determine whether mutant powers could be
> passed down from generation to generation.  For example, Siren has the exact
> same power as Banshee but Quicksilver's daughter is normal (In)human.
>
> On the other hand ,they keep saying that all humans are born with "x-factor"
> so technically every single person could become a mutant if their genes are
> triggered.  Furthermore, they keep saying that mutants are a separate race
> from homo sapiens.  A race would mean everyone within the group shares
> something in common that can be passed down to the next generation.
>
> So what does it mean when Scarlet Witch say "no more mutant"?  No more
> mutants with human parents?  Or does it mean that existing mutants cannot
> pass down their powers to their children?

Ok, I agree that this is very confusing. Basically a mutation is any
change that is not normal to the human genome. this mutation can be as
little as lack of pigment. To say there would be no more mutants is to
say there will be no more different humans. All humans going forward
would look the exact same? Stupid!

The real kicker is that in marvel, somehow, they distinguish between
mutants and non mutant superheroes. What is the difference between a
naturally occuring mutation such as nightcrawler, who can stick to
walls...have hightened acrobatics....and teleport, and spiderman...who
can stick to walls.....have hightened acrobatics....and spidey sense?
Nothing. The Fantastic Four, the inhumans, the hulk, captain america
all of them are mutants. Just artifically created mutants. The only
ones that have a defense against being called mutants have always been
the technological using super heroes like doom or iron man. Of course
with the extreamst mutation that goes right out the window.

So, this was and is a stupid story line that has just seemed to get
stupider! I mean the whole energy can't be destroyed thing...just the
whole plot ending with omega flight.....stupid.
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"Dan McEwen" <ferroSPAMboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A33BC416BA99McEwen@130.133.1.4...
> CleV <clJUNKv1.RemoveThis@balcab.ch> wrote in
> news:7flsp394ed7q466hfnkkob9fvco7vvgrod@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:59:26 GMT, "Kenneth M. Lin"
>> <kenneth_m_lin.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>For example, Siren has the exact
>>>same power as Banshee but Quicksilver's daughter is normal (In)human.
>>
>> They did "explain" that in her first appearances - it's only fallen by
>> the wayside since the end of the 90s: Siryn's powers are slightly
>> different to Banshee's: she can talk while she's screaming (really!)
>
> Except, as you said, it's fallen by the wayside. Banshee eventually
> learned to do the same.

It's like talking with your mouth full. You don't know it can be done until
you try it.
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Tigers692 <tigers692.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
news:4dcc01f2-401c-49cd-a02c-720ed75cb8ae@d21g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> Ok, I agree that this is very confusing. Basically a mutation is any
> change that is not normal to the human genome. this mutation can be as
> little as lack of pigment. To say there would be no more mutants is to
> say there will be no more different humans. All humans going forward
> would look the exact same? Stupid!

You have to set aside your real world understanding of mutation. Just
assume that "mutant" in the Marvel Universe is more of a common name for
a race of people rather than scientifically sound.

> The real kicker is that in marvel, somehow, they distinguish between
> mutants and non mutant superheroes. What is the difference between a
> naturally occuring mutation such as nightcrawler, who can stick to
> walls...have hightened acrobatics....and teleport, and spiderman...who
> can stick to walls.....have hightened acrobatics....and spidey sense?
> Nothing. The Fantastic Four, the inhumans, the hulk, captain america
> all of them are mutants. Just artifically created mutants. The only
> ones that have a defense against being called mutants have always been
> the technological using super heroes like doom or iron man. Of course
> with the extreamst mutation that goes right out the window.

The difference is an active x-factor gene that mutants have and other
superhumans don't have. Of course, most non-mutant superhumans give
birth to mutants, but that's neither here nor there.

> So, this was and is a stupid story line that has just seemed to get
> stupider! I mean the whole energy can't be destroyed thing...just the
> whole plot ending with omega flight.....stupid.

It's only stupid if you don't understand Marvel's use of the term
"mutant". OK, the story is stupid, just not for the reasons you cite.
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Kenneth M. Lin <kenneth_m_lin DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:

: So what does it mean when Scarlet Witch say "no more mutant"? No more
: mutants with human parents? Or does it mean that existing mutants cannot
: pass down their powers to their children?

It means no more powers.

Shawn H.
 >> Stay informed about: What's the Big Deal about Messiah Complex 

> Yeah, "active x-factor". Still, it doesn't trigger in everyone, not
> even under unusual circumstances (i.e. gamma rays or radioactive spider
> bites). There must be a reason why it doesn't work for everyone.

Their also inconsistent about this. In Grant Morrison's run (I
think), it was mentioned that every person has a dormant X-Gene, and
that mutants are the ones where it has activated.

I prefer the "traditional" Marvel definition of "born with an X-Gene".

It's really an unfortunate choice of words because it already had an
established meaning in the real world. DC chose to use the term
"Meta," being short for "Metahuman," to be the equivalent to Marvel's
"Mutant."

> Furthermore, they keep saying that mutants
> are a separate race from homo sapiens. A race would mean everyone
> within the group shares something in common that can be passed down to
> the next generation.

> They're actually inconsistent about whether or not mutants are a
> separate race. Sub-species, perhaps? Or maybe race in the "black,
> white, asian, and so forth" sense?

For a while, mutants were referred to as "Homo Superior", which would
indicate a different species, but now I think they mainly use "Homo
Sapiens Superior," which would indicate a subspecies.

> This was the whole argument as to why House of M world cannot exist.
> Almost all mutants have humans as parents and siblings and how could
> they discriminate against their own family? Heck, they might have to
> discriminate against their own children as well.

Well, the Nazis did get children to rat out their own parents...

> The real kicker is that in marvel, somehow, they distinguish between
> mutants and non mutant superheroes. What is the difference between a
> naturally occuring mutation such as nightcrawler, who can stick to
> walls...have hightened acrobatics....and teleport, and spiderman...who
> can stick to walls.....have hightened acrobatics....and spidey sense?
> Nothing. The Fantastic Four, the inhumans, the hulk, captain america
> all of them are mutants. Just artifically created mutants.

You're still working off the real world definition of Mutant. The
Marvel universe definition is that you are born with the X-Gene which,
when activated, gives you strange powers. Although some manifest at
birth, such as Nightcrawler's blue skin and tail, this mostly occurs
during puberty.

The Fantastic Four, Avengers, and other super-powered beings are not
mutants because they do not have the X-Gene. Their super powers are
due to other changes to their DNA.

> The difference is an active x-factor gene that mutants have and other
> superhumans don't have. Of course, most non-mutant superhumans give
> birth to mutants, but that's neither here nor there.
For example, Franklin Richards. Mutant (TK/TP) born of two non-mutant
superhumans (Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman).
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Eagle-Man <eagle-man.DeleteThis@duetsoftware.ca> wrote in
news:a6bf6b44-14d2-4ef3-9cf1-e9c7db6933f4@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

>> Yeah, "active x-factor". Still, it doesn't trigger in everyone, not
>> even under unusual circumstances (i.e. gamma rays or radioactive
>> spider bites). There must be a reason why it doesn't work for
>> everyone.
>
> Their also inconsistent about this. In Grant Morrison's run (I
> think), it was mentioned that every person has a dormant X-Gene, and
> that mutants are the ones where it has activated.

> I prefer the "traditional" Marvel definition of "born with an X-Gene".

This is consistent at least as far back as when the original X-Men
fought the second(?) wave of Sentinels. The Sentinels intended to snuff
out the sun because it was the ultimate source of mutation. They knew
that all humans would eventually mutate and sought to stop it.

> It's really an unfortunate choice of words because it already had an
> established meaning in the real world. DC chose to use the term
> "Meta," being short for "Metahuman," to be the equivalent to Marvel's
> "Mutant."

Mutant is fine so long as you don't confuse it with the real world.
Words often evolve into new meanings over time so I don't see this as a
big deal.

>> They're actually inconsistent about whether or not mutants are a
>> separate race. Sub-species, perhaps? Or maybe race in the "black,
>> white, asian, and so forth" sense?
>
> For a while, mutants were referred to as "Homo Superior", which would
> indicate a different species, but now I think they mainly use "Homo
> Sapiens Superior," which would indicate a subspecies.

There's debate as to whether they're really even that. Can a
sub-species mate with the original species? Mutants and humans don't
seem to have any problem.

>> The real kicker is that in marvel, somehow, they distinguish between
>> mutants and non mutant superheroes. What is the difference between a
>> naturally occuring mutation such as nightcrawler, who can stick to
>> walls...have hightened acrobatics....and teleport, and
>> spiderman...who can stick to walls.....have hightened
>> acrobatics....and spidey sense? Nothing. The Fantastic Four, the
>> inhumans, the hulk, captain america all of them are mutants. Just
>> artifically created mutants.
>
> You're still working off the real world definition of Mutant. The
> Marvel universe definition is that you are born with the X-Gene which,
> when activated, gives you strange powers. Although some manifest at
> birth, such as Nightcrawler's blue skin and tail, this mostly occurs
> during puberty.

I think the point being made is why does it matter the source of the
powers? If Spider-Man and Nightcrawler both stick to walls, does it
really matter that one was born with the ability and the other got it
through artificial means? Also, non-mutant superhumans tend to have
mutant children. With that in mind, I would think humans would be just
as wary of them. And when you follow most stories that lead to mutants
being eliminated, you discover that other superhumans are eventually
killed off, too.
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