Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa..

"nelson family" <freda_nelson9.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5bd0fb6a.0309291336.7ef2c924@posting.google.com...

 > I have a book that has rough cut pages on two edges (side and bottom).
 > The tops of the pages are smoothly/uniformly cut. The real dilemma
 > is a manufacturing error at the bottom of the pages. Nearly every
 > other set of adjoining pages have never been separated/cut apart, so
 > you can't pull them apart to read them.
 >
 > The really sad part is that this book is the extremely rare Mandate
 > For Change signed by Dwight Eisenhower in perfect condition with
 > original glassine DJ. Only the slipcase is showing any signs of wear.
 > He only signed 1400 of these for Doubleday back in 1963.
 >
 > Who could I take this to in order to have the bottom of the pages
 > cut/separated?

....

Don't.

A book where there unseparated pages is described as "unopened".

Books where the pages remain unopened, are usually considered
more desirable

A book where there are untrimmed pages is described as "uncut".

Years ago, one or both of these were commonly used so as to lend
a "hand made" aura to machine-made books aimed at a more
sophisticated readership.

Having the top edge trimmed makes them easier to dust. Though
they can still be a pain.




michael adams

....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

nelson family wrote:

 > I have a book that has rough cut pages on two edges (side and bottom).
 > The tops of the pages are smoothly/uniformly cut. The real dilemma
 > is a manufacturing error at the bottom of the pages. Nearly every
 > other set of adjoining pages have never been separated/cut apart, so
 > you can't pull them apart to read them.

The first question is whether or not it is actually an "error". Books used
to be marketed unopened (i.e., like your alternate bottom edges) and/or
uncut (i.e., like your side and remaining bottom edges). In such cases, many
collectors have a slight preference for unopened copies, but it doesn't
really make that much difference. Then there was a kind of revival of the
practice, even though technology had moved on and books were routinely
trimmed smooth before hitting the bookshop shelves. I suppose in those cases
the unopened pages are regarded as a feature of the way the book was first
issued and (without knowing much about it) I'd imagine if they are still
unopened collectors would probably pay a premium for them. So if this
edition was marketed that way it wouldn't be an error and it would be better
to leave it as it is.

 > The really sad part is that this book is the extremely rare Mandate
 > For Change signed by Dwight Eisenhower in perfect condition with
 > original glassine DJ. Only the slipcase is showing any signs of wear.
 > He only signed 1400 of these for Doubleday back in 1963.

1434, apparently (http://www.ehistorybuff.com/eisenhowerbk.html). The
picture conforms to your description, but the seller says nothing about
there being any unopened pages. Nor do any of the ABE sellers offering this
book make any mention of such a thing. One seller (the somewhat
exorbitantly-priced Heritage Book Shop) mentions the uncut edges but -
assuming they've got their terminology right, and I think they have - that
is simply a reference to the rough edges you describe, not to unseparated
pages.

That leads me to suppose that the unopened pages probably *are* an error. As
is currently being pointed out in another thread ("What's wrong with this
book?"), errors do not generally enhance the value of a book. The exception
would be if the error was an issue point. In this case, if the first
printing - or even the first batch of the first printing, or a later batch -
had been issued unopened (whether intentionally or not) then the unopened
pages would be an issue point, and you would do best to leave them as they
are. However, if - as seems likely - your copy is an isolated "freak" the
error does nothing to enhance the value. On the contrary, it is a defect.

 > Who could I take this to in order to have the bottom of the pages
 > cut/separated?

Check it out thoroughly and draw your own conclusions as to whether it is
indeed a one-off error (don't take my word for it, as all I've done is a bit
of preliminary googling and whatnot!). If you decide it is, then my advice
would indeed be to open it. Cut the pages carefully with a rounded blade.
Don't use a sharp knife, as it may easily run out of the groove where the
paper is folded and cut into the page. And don't use something *too* blunt,
as it may produce a jagged tear, rather than a straight cut. I've opened old
books myself, and it's a job I find is best done late at night, when there
are no distractions, and you can work slowly and carefully. Practise with
some folded sheets of regular paper first. As for taking it to someone else
to do it, the only people I can think of who may be practised in the art are
the custodians of rare books in certain libraries, who will from time to
time have to open pages of old books for readers.

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" <john RemoveThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
news:blbid2$2fk4$1@kanna.cc.sophia.ac.jp...

 > nelson family wrote:
 >
  > > I have a book that has rough cut pages on two edges (side and
  > > bottom).The tops of the pages are smoothly/uniformly cut. The
  > > real dilemmamis a manufacturing error at the bottom of the pages.
  > > Nearly every other set of adjoining pages have never been
  > > separated/cut apart, so you can't pull them apart to read them.
 >


 > The first question is whether or not it is actually an "error". Books
 > used to be marketed unopened (i.e., like your alternate bottom edges)
 > and/or uncut (i.e., like your side and remaining bottom edges). In
 > such
 > cases, many collectors have a slight preference for unopened copies,
 > but it doesn't really make that much difference. Then there was a kind
 > of revival of the practice, even though technology had moved on and
 > books were routinely trimmed smooth before hitting the bookshop
 > shelves.

....

Trimming is a routine bookbinding operation. Formerly done with a
bookbinding plane. The Gutenburg Bibles will doubtless have been trimmed
upon binding. This is eminently practical, as it prevents the build up
of dust etc.

Up to the 19th century, most books were sold uncut, unopened and bound
in card covers, and purchasers had them bound separately to suit their
taste and pocket.

Uncut edges are largely an affectation anyway.

....


 > I suppose in those cases the unopened pages are regarded as a feature
 > of the way the book was first issued and (without knowing much about
it)
 > I'd imagine if they are still unopened collectors would probably pay a
 > premium for them. So if this edition was marketed that way it wouldn't
 > be an error and it would be better to leave it as it is.
 >
  > > The really sad part is that this book is the extremely rare Mandate
  > > For Change signed by Dwight Eisenhower in perfect condition with
  > > original glassine DJ. Only the slipcase is showing any signs of
wear.
  > > He only signed 1400 of these for Doubleday back in 1963.
 >
 > 1434, apparently (http://www.ehistorybuff.com/eisenhowerbk.html). The
 > picture conforms to your description, but the seller says nothing
about
 > there being any unopened pages. Nor do any of the ABE sellers offering
 > this book make any mention of such a thing. One seller (the somewhat
 > exorbitantly-priced Heritage Book Shop) mentions the uncut edges but -
 > assuming they've got their terminology right, and I think they have -
 > that is simply a reference to the rough edges you describe, not to
 > unseparated pages.
 >
 > That leads me to suppose that the unopened pages probably *are* an
 > error. As is currently being pointed out in another thread ("What's
 > wrong with this book?"), errors do not generally enhance the value of
 > a book. The exception would be if the error was an issue point. In
 > this case, if the first printing - or even the first batch of the
 > first printing, or a later batch - had been issued unopened (whether
 > intentionally or not) then the unopened pages would be an issue point,
 > and you would do best to leave them as they are. However, if - as
seems
 > likely - your copy is an isolated "freak" the error does nothing to
 > enhance the value. On the contrary, it is a defect.
 >
  > > Who could I take this to in order to have the bottom of the pages
  > > cut/separated?
 >
 > Check it out thoroughly and draw your own conclusions as to whether
 > it is indeed a one-off error (don't take my word for it, as all I've
 > done is a bit of preliminary googling and whatnot!). If you decide it
 > is, then my advice would indeed be to open it. Cut the pages carefully
 > with a rounded blade. Don't use a sharp knife, as it may easily run
 > out of the groove where the paper is folded and cut into the page.
 > And don't use something *too* blunt, as it may produce a jagged tear,
 > rather than a straight cut. I've opened old books myself, and it's a
 > job I find is best done late at night, when there are no distractions,
 > and you can work slowly and carefully. Practise with some folded
sheets
 > of regular paper first. As for taking it to someone else to do it,
 > the only people I can think of who may be practised in the art are
 > the custodians of rare books in certain libraries, who will from time
 > to time have to open pages of old books for readers.
 >
 > --
 > John
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font</a>>
 >

....

The reason why the majority* of copies of this title coming onto the
market can no longer be described as "unopened", will probably be
because they will have been opened by their initial purchasers in
order to be read.

Opening a book's pages is irrevocable, and can do nothing to enhance
its value. As this can subsequently be done by anyone at any
time, anyway.

Basically, the first person to open the pages will be the first
person to read that particular copy. And someone is going to be happy
to pay a premium for this. Whether next week, or in 200 years time.

So unless you have money to burn, leave well alone,
and buy yourself a cheap reading copy.




michael adams

....

* Given the political and biographical theme. Were this a
Private Press book with more typical subject matter, one might
expect the proportion of unopened copies to be much higher.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

michael adams wrote:

 > The reason why the majority* of copies of this title coming onto the
 > market can no longer be described as "unopened", will probably be
 > because they will have been opened by their initial purchasers in
 > order to be read.

Michael, do you have any evidence that this really is the reason? Do have
any evidence that this edition was originally issued with the pages
unopened? Do you have any evidence that the Nelson family's copy is anything
other than a defective copy, a one-off freak?

If so, please advance your evidence and I will bow to it. This book has a
companion volume (Waging Peace), apparently also with uncut (i.e., untrimmed
edges). Together, the two volumes contain 650 and 741 pages respectively
(plus prefaces). If they *were* unopened as well as uncut that's a heck of a
lot of cutting, and it's rather odd that none of the copies of either volume
currently being offered online appears to have any unopened pages.

I noted (but did not mention in my previous posting) that one of the ABE
copies is described as "A very fine copy in very fine slipcase, preserved as
new in the publisher's shipping box." (the same seller also has a copy of
Waging Peace, similarly described). It seems particularly odd that someone
would go to the trouble of opening these books and then returning them to
the boxes they had been shipped in..

The Nelsons would do well to contact some other sellers to find out if any
copies have unopened pages, and try to track down an appropriate reference
work which may resolve the matter.

If it does turn out that it was generally issued unopened then this is an
issue point and it should (from the point of view of a purist collector) be
left. If not, it is merely a defect and, as I said before, it would probably
be better to open it.

The question that then arises is whether such modifications ought to be
declared when the book is sold. Common practice suggests it needn't be
(i.e., if a book is unopened that will generally be included in the seller's
description, but if it has been opened that fact will not be noted), but
I'd be interested to know what others think.

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" <john.DeleteThis@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
news:blbs0g$2lp1$1@kanna.cc.sophia.ac.jp...

 > michael adams wrote:
 >
  > > The reason why the majority* of copies of this title coming onto the
  > > market can no longer be described as "unopened", will probably be
  > > because they will have been opened by their initial purchasers in
  > > order to be read.
 >
 > Michael, do you have any evidence that this really is the reason? Do
 > have any evidence that this edition was originally issued with the
pages
 > unopened? Do you have any evidence that the Nelson family's copy
 > is anything other than a defective copy, a one-off freak?
 >
 > If so, please advance your evidence and I will bow to it.

....

Unopened pages in older books are simply the result of those
particular folds missing the trimming knife. This book has been
deliberately produced with uncut edges on two sides. Its impossible
to fold a sheet of book paper so the folds only occur on two edges of
the finished book. The top - trimmed and the inside fold.
With no folds on the outside its inevitable there will be folds
on the bottom. To prevent too many unopened gatherings most printers
mix in pretrimmed sheets among the uncut pages. Which is probably
the case here. But some unopened gatherings are inevitable with
untrimmed pages on two sides.

...


 > This book has a
 > companion volume (Waging Peace), apparently also with uncut
 > (i.e., untrimmed edges). Together, the two volumes contain 650 and 741
 > pages respectively (plus prefaces). If they *were* unopened as well
 > as uncut that's a heck of a lot of cutting, and it's rather odd that
 > none of the copies of either volume currently being offered online
 > appears to have any unopened pages.
 >
 > I noted (but did not mention in my previous posting) that one of
 > the ABE copies is described as "A very fine copy in very fine
 > slipcase, preserved as new in the publisher's shipping box."
 > (the same seller also has a copy of Waging Peace, similarly
described).
 > It seems particularly odd that someone would go to the trouble of
 > opening these books and then returning them to the boxes they
 > had been shipped in..

....

But did they make a point of mentioning whether the pages were
opened or not?

Or for that matter, do all of the other copies describe the
pages as uncut?

....


 >
 > The Nelsons would do well to contact some other sellers to find
 > out if any copies have unopened pages, and try to track down an
 > appropriate reference work which may resolve the matter.
 >
 > If it does turn out that it was generally issued unopened then
 > this is an issue point and it should (from the point of view of a
 > purist collector) be left. If not, it is merely a defect and, as I
 > said before, it would probably be better to open it.

....

Why ? And deny somebody the priviledge of knowing they are the first
person to read that particular copy ? Or rather deny the dealer to
whom you sell the book the opportunity to suggest as much?

Most defects in books are indeed deleterious. But if it were
indeed the case that this book was unique in this respect - then
given the above, this could only enhance its value I'd suggest.

....


 >
 > The question that then arises is whether such modifications ought to
be
 > declared when the book is sold. Common practice suggests it needn't be
 > (i.e., if a book is unopened that will generally be included in the
seller's
 > description, but if it has been opened that fact will not be noted),
but
 > I'd be interested to know what others think.
 >
 > --
 > John
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font</a>>

....

The general point is that the O.P would be best advised not to open
the pages under any circumstances, as this can in no way enhance the
value of the book.

The O. P said that "Nearly every other set of adjoining pages have never
been separated/cut apart, so you can't pull them apart to read them.
In fact it's very doubtful if this could actually be the case, given
the possible folding permutations. Also, as was suggested earlier,
most uncut books have complete trimmed gatherings mixed-in, often at
awkward angles to retain the handmade look, so as to reduce the burden
of too much opening.





michael adams

....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

Michael Adams wrote:

 > Unopened pages in older books are simply the result of those
 > particular folds missing the trimming knife.

Agreed, except that frequently there was no trimming knife and books were
simply marketed without opening the pages.

 > This book has been
 > deliberately produced with uncut edges on two sides.

Yes, it looks that way (http://www.ehistorybuff.com/eisenhowerbk.html).

 > Its impossible to fold a sheet of book paper so the
 > folds only occur on two edges of the finished book.

It's not impossible at all. It just depends on how many times the sheet has
been folded. A folio volume is made of sheets that have been folded once;
all three adges will be free of folds. A quarto is made of sheets which have
been folded twice; one edge (the top edge by convention, but it could
equally well be the bottom) will be folded. An octavo is made of sheets
which have been folded three times; two edges (the fore-edge and the top or,
possibly, bottom) will contain folds. The third edge will not contain any
folds.

To be bound in this way, the original sheet would have to be printed
lengthwise, with, from left to right, pages 5, 12, 9 and 8 upside down at
the top and 5, 12, 9 and 8 right-way up at the bottom on one side of the
sheet, and pages 7, 10, 11 and 6 upside down at the top and 2, 15, 14 and 3
right-way up at the bottom on the other side.

Try it; take a piece of A4 paper, fold it in half, then again and once again
(always
folding lengthwise). This makes eight leaves of paper. On one of the longer
sides each leaf is connected to another via one central fold. This side will
be at the spine of the book, where the signatures are sewn. The other longer
side will have four leaves that are separated followed by four unseparated
ones. This side is the front edge of the book. One of the shorter sides
consists of two sets of four leaves each connected by a fold. The other side
has no folds.

16mo consists of a sheet folded in half twice, then in thirds, and again the
finished book will have folds on only two sides (the fore-edge and -
normally - the top). 24mo consists of a sheet folded four times, and has
folds on all three edges.

Of course, there are many variations on these basic folds, but the point is
that in principle it is perfectly possible for a book to have unopened or
uncut bottom and fore-edges and be perfectly smooth *from the beginning* at
the top (since that edge consists only of edge parts of the original sheet,
with no folds).


--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Book manufacturing error. What to do about a book with pa.. 

"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" <john.DeleteThis@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
news:blh97v$2bui$1@kanna.cc.sophia.ac.jp...
> Michael Adams wrote:
>
> > However as soon as you fold it once in the other direction, after
> > having folded it twice already, you must have a fold in three sides.
>
> Yes, that's right. There is a fold of three sides of the *paper*,
> but that is not the same as saying that there is a fold on three edges
> of the *book*. A book only has three edges (top, bottom and
> fore-edge). The fourth side is the spine, where the signatures are
> sewn together.
>
> > What you seem to be saying here, is that a book can indeed have
> > three sides with folds. In this case bottom, fore edge, and spine.
> > Which is what I was suggesting for this book.
>
> I can quite see that that was what you *meant*, but what you
> actually *said* was:
>
> > Its impossible to fold a sheet of book paper so the folds
> > only occur on two edges of the finished book.
>
> That is incorrect, because - as I say - a book only has three
> edges, only two of which (in an octavo book) will normally have
> folds. So we are in agreement that three out of four sides of the
> pages of an octavo book will have folds. The confusion arises when
> you try to count the spine as an "edge" of the book. It isn't.


>
> > Except I was suggesting the side without folds was
> > the fore edge, rather than the top.
>
> That's a possible variant, but the more usual arrangement is for
> the bottom edge to be the one without folds. But the weird and
> wonderful ways of bookbinders sometimes defy logic. I have in
> front of me right now, for example, a copy of Stevenson's Underwoods,
> in which the signatures consist of eight leaves (i.e., octavo),
> but the distribution
> of opened and unopened edges is very peculiar. The pages have all been
> opened, so all I have to go on is uncut edges (where the logical
> assumption is that there *was* a fold at some point) versus smooth
> edges (where there was no fold). Most of the pages are uncut at the
> top edge and fore-edge, as one would expect, but there are scattered
> leaves (not according to any pattern that I can observe) which have
> *all three* edges uncut. Sometimes there is just one such leaf,
> sometimes two or three together. I'm assuming that the third fold
> must have been opened *before* the actual binding took place, since
> if it had been bound with folds on all three edges there would have
> been nowhere to insert the blade and it would have been impossible
> to open the pages, but I'm still not sure what procedure led to this
> result. It's quite a small book, so at first I hypothesised that
> each octavo signature was actually made up of *half* an original
> sheet, but that wouldn't give the same distribution or
> overall number of uncut edges.

.....

It's a mistake to assume all the sheets were of the same size just
prior to stitching. On most such books some of the sheets will have
been cut prior to folding and gathering, as you suspect. Indeed this
was standard practice with some types of octavo imposition anyway. A
sharp blade to give a clean cut, a saw blade to leave a rough
serrated cut, or variations in between may be used, so at to create
a variety of edges in the finished book. Just as papers are still
being manufactured for this market with deckled "hand made" looking
edges

But the point is, that these cut sheets will be probably still be
mixed in with full sheets.

So that basically gatherings in such books may indeed be mixed.
Comprised of folded full sheets, folded half, third, or two-third
sheets, or a combination of these. All apparently thrown together
at random. With knife-cut, saw-cut, or deckled edges.

And even if you dismantled the entire book, it would probably still be
virtually impossible to tell how it was actually made up. Although if
you had the time to spare, it might be interesting to compare two copies
of the same book.

And all this trouble, just so as to avoid that "manufactured" look.




michael adams


....
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