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sabran2

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Since: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 53



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 12:09 am
Post subject: Bookseller Terminology
Archived from groups: rec>collecting>books (more info?)

So,

I took this:

(recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice),

to mean pages 68-97 are missing, and 101-102 printed twice - but I have been
told it actually means the paignation is mixed up.

So - can anyone clarify this?

Cheers,

Tom L-M

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john20

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Since: Jan 07, 2004
Posts: 18



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 8:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Bookseller Terminology [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Tom L-M wrote:

 > I took this:
 >
 > (recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice),
 >
 > to mean pages 68-97 are missing, and 101-102 printed twice - but I have been
 > told it actually means the paignation is mixed up.
 >
 > So - can anyone clarify this?

Well, the use of the word "recte" indicates that the book has the
total and correct number of pages. On the other hand, I agree with you
that the rest of the description is minimalist to the point of being
unclear. It doesn't specify whether the book left the printer's with
defects in the content (thirty pages of text missing and two pages of
text duplicated, as you inferred), or whether the content is complete
and continuous and the apparently missing and duplicated pages are
merely errors in the pagination. One would tend to assume the latter,
since it does say "recte", but then it might just be that all copies
were issued with a chunk of text missing and another chunk of text
duplicated, in which case this copy is, arguably, as "recte" as any
other!

Mispagination is always a confusing matter, and getting the idea
across clearly is a bit of an art. The first thing that needs to be
made clear is whether - despite the errors of pagination - the text is
actually *complete*. It would be quite sufficient for most purposes to
say, "errors in pagination, but collates complete".

If further details are given, the convention generally is to say that
what *should* be marked one way is *actually* marked differently, like
this:

"The collations given for this work [Scheiner, Rosa Ursina, 1630] vary
because of the peculiar mixture of pagination and foliation and
attendant errors, but this copy is absolutely complete. After page 125
[-6] the book is foliated 126-149 (the latter being P6), followed by
12 leaves (gatherings Q-R6, all but R6 (which is blank) all foliated
149); pagination recommences with aa2 (aa1, beginning Liber tertius,
is unpaginated) which is paginated 149. Furthermore pages 511-522 are
mispaginated 459-470."
(http://www.polybiblio.com/watbooks/2669.html)

I infer from this that there are fourteen leaves numbered 149 (P6,
gatherings Q-R6, excepting R6 itself, and aa2), and that there are two
sets of pages numbered 459-470 (one set correctly so, the other
mispaginated [should be 511-522]). If those inferences are correct,
then this is a reasonably good description.

Here is an even clearer description, citing signatures, rather than
pages (the book is Frances Howgill, Dawnings of the Gospel-Day, 1676):

"Numerous errors in paging
"Signature g2 signed g3; B3 and 4 signed C3 and 4; 2E1 unsigned, 2E2
and 3 signed 2E and 2E2; 2F4 signed 2F3; 2L3 signed L3; 4G2 signed
4G3; 4H4 signed 4H3"
(Edinburgh library catalogue; see COPAC)

----
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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notjerryandlin

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 111



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 8:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Bookseller Terminology [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tom,

Here's my interpretation of the following:

(recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice),

From the OED: recte: correctly.
Used to indicate that the word or phrase following it in a parentheses
is the correct version of text which immediately precedes the insertion.

Thus, "813,(recte 913)" would mean that 913 is the correct page number
of the page identifed as 813 ( or whatever page it was before the
parentheses).

p.68-97 omitted: Self-explanatory; they're not included in the book.

101-102 twice. Yep. Two of them. Somewhere, there is probably a copy
that is missing that sheet, but which has double sheets of something
else. =A0 My indexes for the 1776 edition of the Rambler are reversed
and have duplicate pages. Fleeman's bibliography of Johnson's works
cites another copy of this set with the same error.

Yeah, the pagination is mixed up, but you and I explained exactly how it
was mixed up.

If you want to have fun, do some research on the etymology of the word,
"recte." Etymology means where the word comes from.

According to the OED, "recte" was first used in the context we
described in 1886 in the Transactions of the Philological Society.

The word, "recte", could be derived from the word, "rectify;" The OED
cites a work from the 1400s as when "rectify" was first used. A
derivation, "rectification," was first used in 1460. Robert Burton used
the word, "rectification," in 1621 in his Anatomy of Melancholy.

"Recte" could also be derived from the words, "rectum" and "rectus,"
meaning "right."

Indeed, in Diversions of Purley, London, 1786, John Horne Tooke touches
upon the word "rectum" in his chapter titled the "Rights of Man." A
play on words, this essay is not a philosophical work, but rather a
philological work. It pertains to the usages of the word, "right:" A
man's Right...a Right conduct...a Right reckoning...a Right line...the
Right road....to do Right...to be in the Right...to have the Right on
one's side...the Right hand.....

Tooke writes:

"Right is no other than the Rect-um ( regitum), the past participle of
the Latin verb regere.. Whence in Italian you have Ritto; and from
Dirigere, Ditto, Dritto: whence the French have their antient Droict and
their modern Droit: the Italian Dritto and the French Droit, being no
other than the past particle, direct-um.

Tooke even uses the Latin word "recte" while quoting Vossius:

"....Insidorus regem ait dici a recte agendo...."

I've sent this sentence, and the entire paragraph it came from, to two
friends who are pretty good at translating Latin.

As for me, I'm pretty good at translating old English definitions into
terms of modern usage. Yep!

Here's some compound words of the word, "Rectus," extracted from the
1775 edition of Bailey's Dictionary, together with my explanations of
modern usage below each one:
Rectus in Curia: =A0 [ie. Right in Court]

Signifies one who stands at the Bar, and no Man objects any thing
against him; also one who has reversed an Outlawry.

The Morris Explanation of Modern Usage:

Nowadays, we call that person a lawyer.....sometimes we call that person
something else.....


Rectus Major. [In Anatomy]

A Muscle in the Head, inserted in the hinder Part of the Os Occipitis.

The Morris Explanation of Modern Usage:

Etymology of the phrases, "Get your head out of your ass" and "shit for
brains."


Rectus Palpebr=E6 Superioris:

A Muscle that lifts up the upper Eye-lid.

The Morris Explanation of Modern Usage:

Up to your eyeballs in shit. Caution. Don't blink!


Cheers,
Jerry Morris

.............................................................

sabran.TakeThisOut@lintern-mole.fsnet.co.uk (Tom=A0L-M) So,
I took this:
(recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice), to mean pages 68-97 are
missing, and 101-102 printed twice - but I have been told it actually
means the paignation is mixed up. So - can anyone clarify this?
Cheers,
Tom L-M





Welcome to Moi's Books About Books: http://www.tinyurl.com/hib7
My Sentimental Library http://www.picturetrail.com/mylibrary and
moislibrary.com http://www.tinyurl.com/hisn
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john20

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Since: Jan 07, 2004
Posts: 18



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 11:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Bookseller Terminology [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Jerry Morris wrote:

 > Thus, "813,(recte 913)" would mean that 913 is the correct page number
 > of the page identifed as 813 ( or whatever page it was before the
 > parentheses).

Interesting. I didn't think of it like that. I took it to mean that
the book had 913 pages, as called for. On reflection, though, you are
quite possibly right, though it seems odd to describe page [?813]
before describing pages 68-97 and 101-102.

 > p.68-97 omitted: Self-explanatory; they're not included in the book.

I don't agree that it is self-explanatory. As I said in my previous
posting, there is the issue of whether there is any textual content
missing or whether there is simply an error in the page numbering, and
this description doesn't address that. From what Tom says, the latter
appears to be the case.

 > 101-102 twice. Yep. Two of them. Somewhere, there is probably a copy
 > that is missing that sheet, but which has double sheets of something
 > else. My indexes for the 1776 edition of the Rambler are reversed
 > and have duplicate pages. Fleeman's bibliography of Johnson's works
 > cites another copy of this set with the same error.

Well, not if I've understood Tom aright. He seems to be saying that
the *numbering* is repeated on pages with different content (i.e.,
that it was a pagination error). I have a couple of books with this
kind of flaw in them at home; I'll look them up when I get back from
work.

----
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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notjerryandlin

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 111



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:16 am
Post subject: Re: Bookseller Terminology [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Tom,

I stand corrected. 913 does not stand for the page number; it denotes
the correct total number of pages in the book. Moreover, the rest of
the information really is meaningful, because it demonstrates how and
why the total number of pages was corrected.

For the line:
(recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice),

Take 913 pages, add 30 pages (68 to 97), subtract 2 pages (101-102)
equals 28 pages. Now, add 28 to 913. You get 941.

The incorrect number of pages was 941.

Now do it backwards:

Take 941 pages, subtract 30 pages (68 to 97) and add 2 pages (101-102)
equals 28 pages. Now, subtract 28 pages from 941.

The correct number of pages is 913.

Hence the line should now read:
941 (recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice),

Cheers,
Jerry Morris




Welcome to Moi's Books About Books: http://www.tinyurl.com/hib7
My Sentimental Library http://www.picturetrail.com/mylibrary and
moislibrary.com http://www.tinyurl.com/hisn
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johndeletethis

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Since: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 229



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:28 am
Post subject: Re: Bookseller Terminology [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jerry Morris wrote:

 > I stand corrected. 913 does not stand for the page number; it
 > denotes the correct total number of pages in the book.

OK, but I stand corrected too, since - as you point out -

 > the rest of the information really is meaningful, because it
 > demonstrates how and why the total number of pages
 > was corrected.

If you are right - as I suspect you are - about the original being

 > 941 (recte 913, p. 68-97 omitted, 101-102 twice)

then you have not only done a neat bit of detective work yourself, but you
demonstrate that the original description was itself very neat, saying, in
elegantly brief form, "the last page of the book is numbered 941, but really
there are only 913 pages, since on the one hand the numbering jumps from 68
to 97 (though the text is continuous, with no gaps) and on the other pages
numbered 101-102 occur twice (but with different content)".

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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