Boromir's Death

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:07:56 GMT, lsong.DeleteThis@uni.uiuc.edu (Linda Song)
wrote:
>Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up killing
>Boromir?

wages of sin, and all that.

J.
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"Linda Song" <lsong.RemoveThis@uni.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:3fd8a448.593944507@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up killing
> Boromir?
>

It was both a punishment for his sins as well as a chance for
redemption.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Boromir's Death 

Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
> "Linda Song" <lsong.RemoveThis@uni.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> news:3fd8a448.593944507@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> > Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up killing
> > Boromir?
> >
>
> It was both a punishment for his sins as well as a chance for
> redemption.

I think you (and others) are maybe missing Linda's point. Why did
Tolkien choose to /kill/ Boromir, rather than have him to have his
punishment and redemption in a non-lethal way, like, say, Lobelia had?
(Before you laugh, notice that it is NOT a joke paralelism: BOTH Boromir
and Lobelia get their redemption from former selfish behaviour by
fighting the bad guys against all odds. He dies, she doesn't. So, why
did Tolkien choose to kill him?)

Actually, and asuming that Tolkien had the whole plotline of the two
later books firmly in mind when he was writting the death scene, it's
because his actual death triggers a set of events later along the
plotline regarding the actions of his brother and his father, and also
of Aragorn, (Linda: if you have read the book, you know what I'm talking
about, if not, there's no spoilers) that could hardly have taken
place with a living Boromir, not to say, his death actually sets Aragorn
into the course of action he takes - otherwise he would have followed
Frodo.

In other words, Boromir had no place in the later part of the book (so
he has to go), and his death serves to set the story in the desired
direction (instead of having to come with some other weird reason for
Frodo and Sam to continue on their own) so that's as good a point as any
other to remove him. That Tolkien makes his passing as the point to give
him his chance at redemption is just the logical thing to do.

In yet another words: Boromir had the proverbial red shirt right from
the begining. but at least Tolkien gives him one of the greatest
death scenes ever.

L.L.
--
"We must. We can. We will".
(Christopher Reeve)
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LITTLE LOCUS wrote:

> I think you (and others) are maybe missing Linda's point. Why did
> Tolkien choose to /kill/ Boromir, rather than have him to have his
> punishment and redemption in a non-lethal way, like, say, Lobelia had?
> (Before you laugh, notice that it is NOT a joke paralelism: BOTH Boromir
> and Lobelia get their redemption from former selfish behaviour by
> fighting the bad guys against all odds. He dies, she doesn't. So, why
> did Tolkien choose to kill him?)

Lobilla was put in Saurons gulag where she wasted away. After she was
freed she did a decent thing or two, then she died. Is that lethal
enough for you.

Bob Kolker
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"LITTLE LOCUS" <leader.DeleteThis@worldconquer.org> wrote in message
news:3FD9E84C.EA5BF1F8@worldconquer.org...
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
> >
> > "Linda Song" <lsong.DeleteThis@uni.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> > news:3fd8a448.593944507@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> > > Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up killing
> > > Boromir?
> > >
> >
> > It was both a punishment for his sins as well as a chance for
> > redemption.
>
> I think you (and others) are maybe missing Linda's point.

<snip>

No, her point was well taken. What could be more poingnant than
sacrificing one's life to save another?
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Boromir's Death 

Bill O'Meally wrote:

> No, her point was well taken. What could be more poingnant than
> sacrificing one's life to save another?

Not sacrificing one's life to save another and letting the other die.

Bob Kolker
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LITTLE LOCUS <leader RemoveThis @worldconquer.org> wrote in message news:<3FD9E84C.EA5BF1F8 RemoveThis @worldconquer.org>...
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
> >
> > "Linda Song" <lsong RemoveThis @uni.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> > news:3fd8a448.593944507@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> > > Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up killing
> > > Boromir?
> > >
> >
> > It was both a punishment for his sins as well as a chance for
> > redemption.
>
> I think you (and others) are maybe missing Linda's point. Why did
> Tolkien choose to /kill/ Boromir, rather than have him to have his
> punishment and redemption in a non-lethal way, like, say, Lobelia had?
> (Before you laugh, notice that it is NOT a joke paralelism: BOTH Boromir
> and Lobelia get their redemption from former selfish behaviour by
> fighting the bad guys against all odds. He dies, she doesn't. So, why
> did Tolkien choose to kill him?)

Several reasons. There was a conflict between Boromit and Aragorn.
The death of Boromir resolved that conflict without either giving in.
One could even say that Boromir won as Aragorn obeyed Boromir's last
request, though he would have done the same notwithstanding.

Then there is the question of how large a sacrifice Boromir had to
make to redeem himself. Tolkien had him make the greatest sacrifice
possible.

There is also the issue of corruption by the Ring. After succumbing
to the will of the Ring could Boromir have stayed truly repentent.
Bilbo, with considerable difficulty, gave up the Ring voluntarily
and so was able to live out his life peacefully. Boromir had the
Ring snatched away from him, perhaps he never could have known peace
again.

Finally, Roland died, so therefor did Boromir.

> that could hardly have taken
> place with a living Boromir, not to say, his death actually sets Aragorn
> into the course of action he takes - otherwise he would have followed
> Frodo.

Not so. Aragorn did not follow Frodo because he understood that Frodo
had decided to go alone and he respected Frodo's decision. But Boromir
might (would?) not have forcing a showdown between Aragorn and Boromir
over the Ring. Tolien did not want Aragorn to assert his kingship
by dueling the heir of the steward.

If Boromir had let Frodo go on with only Sam (and as noted above,
maybe he could not have brought himself to do so) then as you note
below there was no place for him in the rest of the story.

--

FF
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Quoth LITTLE LOCUS <leader.TakeThisOut@worldconquer.org> in article
<3FD9E84C.EA5BF1F8.TakeThisOut@worldconquer.org>:
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
> > "Linda Song" <lsong.TakeThisOut@uni.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > Hey, I'm a newbie. But why do you think Tolkien ended up
> > > killing Boromir?

> > It was both a punishment for his sins as well as a chance for
> > redemption.

> I think you (and others) are maybe missing Linda's point. Why did
> Tolkien choose to /kill/ Boromir, rather than have him to have his
> punishment and redemption in a non-lethal way, like, say, Lobelia had?

> Actually, and asuming that Tolkien had the whole plotline of the two
> later books firmly in mind when he was writting the death scene...

I don't have time to discuss this topic in full (it's interesting, and
deserves some serious thought), but I figured I'd chime in with a
potentially significant point. Tolkien emphatically did _not_ have
the plotline of the later books in mind when he came up with Boromir's
death!

In fact, the drafts in _The Treason of Isengard_ show that even as
late as when he was writing of the departure from Lorien, Tolkien
planned for Boromir to survive back to Minas Tirith and turn traitor
there! (This is in the chapter "The Story Forseen from Lorien", which
in a cool nod to serious book fans is also the title of a "chapter" on
Peter Jackson's _Two Towers_ DVD. As another interesting side note,
Tolkien's sketch shows Boromir's treachery at Minas Tirith as being in
the third chapter after "The Breaking of the Fellowship"; the Ring was
destroyed in the fifth. Tolkien consistently underestimated how far
he had to go, by a lot!)

It looks for all the world like the actual death of Boromir appeared
for the first time only when Tolkien was drafting "The Breaking of the
Fellowship" in detail. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that he
didn't even "discover" Faramir at all until Frodo met him in Ithilien,
so he certainly wasn't consciously setting up those later events. I
think that in the end, Tolkien just felt that Boromir "should" die at
that point, defending Merry and Pippin; the later resonance of his
death was presumably developed along the way or added in editing.

As for why Tolkien decided the death scene "felt right", as I said,
that would require a lot more time and thought than I have right now
(my wife is eager to go to sleep ). I hope that others can shed
some light on the question.
Steuard Jensen
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dogger_blue.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca (Dogger) wrote in message news:<eed9768b.0312161058.17ff7c18.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>...
> > Since this is no talking about flying apendages of fire maiars and
> > BOTH points can be true, I honestly believe now that BOTH of them are.
>
> A minor point but Maiar is already plural. A balrog is a Maia. Three
> of them are Maiar, though if you saw three I doubt you would be around
> long enough to tell someone about it, because you would be one dead
> Hildo. 87
>
> The same grammar goes for Valar, Eldar, Noldor, and a lot of other
> Sindarin words ending in 'r'.

Oops. These types of plurals are of Quenya origin, not Sindarin. A
brainfart. I apologise.

DB.
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Tar-Elenion <tar_elenion DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a493a854aa33cbc9897e6 DeleteThis @news.comcast.giganews.com>...
> Those are Quenya words. Sindarin pluralizes with vowel changes.

Yes. Thank you. You scooped me. I messed that up.

DB.
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Steuard Jensen typed away while staving off slumber in message news:

<snip>
>
> As for why Tolkien decided the death scene "felt right", as I said,
> that would require a lot more time and thought than I have right now
> (my wife is eager to go to sleep ). I hope that others can shed
> some light on the question.
> Steuard Jensen

This is an interesting thread. As I sat here reading it my memory
raced to the description of Boromir pierced by arrows, and pictures of
St. Sebastian.

In Roman Catholicism, St. Sebastian is the patron of soldiers (and
protector against the plague). In 286 A.D., so the story goes, he was
a member of the Imperial Guard. When it was discovered that he was a
Christian, he was turned over to the Mauretanian archers, who pierced
him with arrows. He survived, but was later martyred (clubbed to
death). In Catholic iconography, he is usually depicted pierced with
arrows. Such depictions have been very popular since the Italian
Renaissance, in painting, statuary, and stained glass, and were used
in Gothic Revival structures in the 19th century.

I don't have ready access to a lot of the literary analysis, but has
there been any suggestion that Tolkien may have had soldier and martyr
Sebastian in mind as he polished LotR? Are there, for example, any
such depictions of Sebastian in the churches Tolkien worshipped in, or
in his college?

Just a thought.
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"Elrond of Rivendell" <elrondimladris.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a5e2682.0312211600.13a9352a@posting.google.com...
> Steuard Jensen typed away while staving off slumber in message news:
>
> > As for why Tolkien decided the death scene "felt right", as I said,
> > that would require a lot more time and thought than I have right now
> > (my wife is eager to go to sleep ). I hope that others can shed
> > some light on the question.
> > Steuard Jensen
>
> This is an interesting thread. As I sat here reading it my memory
> raced to the description of Boromir pierced by arrows, and pictures of
> St. Sebastian.
>
> In Roman Catholicism, St. Sebastian is the patron of soldiers (and
> protector against the plague). In 286 A.D., so the story goes, he was
> a member of the Imperial Guard. When it was discovered that he was a
> Christian, he was turned over to the Mauretanian archers, who pierced
> him with arrows. He survived, but was later martyred (clubbed to
> death). In Catholic iconography, he is usually depicted pierced with
> arrows. Such depictions have been very popular since the Italian
> Renaissance, in painting, statuary, and stained glass, and were used
> in Gothic Revival structures in the 19th century.
>
> I don't have ready access to a lot of the literary analysis, but has
> there been any suggestion that Tolkien may have had soldier and martyr
> Sebastian in mind as he polished LotR? Are there, for example, any
> such depictions of Sebastian in the churches Tolkien worshipped in, or
> in his college?
>
> Just a thought.

Or could be the death of King Saint Edmund, who was killed by the Danes in
the same way.
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