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heldenib

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Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 269



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:24 am
Post subject: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)

Information about previous chapter discussions you will find at
http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . Take the once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity
to volunteer for a chapter yourself! Of Book I Chapter 9
"At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" (due in 2 weeks) and Chapter 11 "A
Knife in the Dark" have as yet not been accounted for.

Summary (with thanks to Troels for the concept of the lay-out).

Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin enter Tom Bombadil's stone house, which
is
described in detail throughout the chapter [1]. They are welcomed [2]
by
the fair and merry Goldberry [3], Daughter of the River, who deeply
moves
them to happiness, especially Frodo.[4] She invites them to sit down
and wait
for the "Master of the house". Frodo asks Goldberry who Tom Bombadil
is,
which she explains [5] Washed and refreshed, the hobbits have supper
with Tom and Goldberry [6], during which they become aware that they
sing merrily.[7] When Goldberry wishes them goodnight and peace until
the
morning [8], Frodo asks the question which also haunts many an
AFT/RABT-poster: if Tom heard him call when he cried
for help in the Old Forest, or if chance brought him. Tom answers
that he did not hear him calling: "Just chance brought me then, if
chance you call it" [9], although he had been waiting for the hobbits.
He sings about the errand he had there: gathering water-lilies, and
about
how he met Goldberry. The question about the Willow-Man he leaves
unanswered for the moment at the explicit wish of Merry and Pippin. He
wishes them goodnight in rhyme and also tells them not to be afraid
during the night.

Frodo dreams of a pinnacle/tower of stone, surrounded by a
plain where the crying of fell voices is heard and the howling of
wolves. On the pinnacle a figure stands. His staff flashes light and
he
is carried away by an eagle.[10] Frodo hears the sound of galloping
hoofs and wakes up, thinking: "Black Riders!" Pippins pleasant dreams
are
disturbed by noises of branches fretting in the wind, scraping
twig-fingers and the remembrance of Old Man Willow, but both he and
Merry (who in his dreams fears he is drowning) are uplifted by the
comforting words Tom and Goldberry spoke before they went to sleep.

In the morning they are woken by a whistling, singing and clapping Tom
[11], who says he has already walked wide and wakened
Goldberry. "In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and
sleep
after light has come", he says mysteriously, after Frodo has
checked for footprints around the house and Pippin for signs of Old
Man
Willow. They only see a well tended garden[12], the grey
sky, fog and the Valley of the Withywindle.When the hobbits have their
breakfast by themselves, they hear the clattering and singing
of Tom about the house and the singing of Goldberry, which to them
seems clearly a rain-song, to which they listen with delight.
Frodo sees Tom come home, warding off the rain by waving his arms and
indeed he seems quite dry, except for his boots. Tom tells,
this is Goldberry's washing day and her autumn-cleaning: "Too wet for
hobbit-folk", so he tells them remarkable stories: about the
Old Forest, the dangerous Old man Willow[13], nature, the history of
the
Barrow-wights of Barrow-downs and then more ancient
history. He tells and tells, sings, dances, jumps about and sometimes
nods as if falling asleep. Frodo cannot tell if one day or many
days have passed when he finally asks: "Who are you, Master? " Tom
answers: "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only
answer". But he ads: "Eldest, that's what I am", and he gives an
indication of just how long he's been around: for millenia.

Goldberry enters[14], and she and Tom set the table: "(...)in some
fashion they seemed to weave a single dance". They eat and sing.
After Goldberry has wished them goodnight, Tom tells about his
dealings
with Farmer Maggot and the Elves, and that he knew
about Frodo's flight. He asks them many questions and Frodo opens up
to
him more than he ever has before to anyone. When Tom asks for the
"precious Ring", Frodo hands it at once. When Tom puts it on, it
does not make him disappear, instead he makes the Ring
disappear. Frodo, slightly annoyed by Tom's making light of this
dangerous Ring and to make sure it still is *his* Ring, silently puts
it
on and creeps away. Merry stares blankly at his chair, but Tom calls
him
back with most seeing (blue) eyes. Tom advices them to
leave early next day, tells them which way to take and teaches them to
sing a rhyme in case they should fall into any danger or
difficulty the next day.

Points, comments, questions, remarks, trivia and wild speculations:

[1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
later as
white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
Actually
no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
and honey.

[2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
hobbits very comfortable.

[3]Another mentioning of the mysterious: "You are an elf-friend", by
Goldberry to Frodo: "the light in your eyes and the ring in your
voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)

[4] Prof. Tolkien really must have had a high EQ: Frodo, when he first
meets
Goldberry he feels his heart "moved with a joy that he did not
understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair
elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different:
less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal
heart; marvellous and yet not strange". I really have to concentrate
hard to be able to grasp this.

[5a] According to all the threads dedicated to the subject, not at all
satisfactorily. Steuard Jensen has written extensively and
interestingly about Tom:
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html ,
but after dealing with the likelihood of several explanations of Tom,
draws the conclusion that Tom remains an enigma. I think Tom is an
Enlightened being. He is Eldest on a larger scale than the softrat,
but not on such a large scale as Eru. I like Goldberry's Zen-like
answer: "He Is", and Tom's answer later:
"Don't you know my name yet? That is the only answer".
I am very fond of Tom and Goldberry, and I deliberately planned to
volunteer for this chapter well in advance, for fear it would fall
into the hands of the Tom-haters, of which quite a few are around. Why
do posters dislike Tom and call him e.g."the Unspeakable
Idiot with the yellow bootsies" (Taemon, and then there is Count
Menelvagor)?
Are they envious because he is happy, tells stories enchantingly, has
thick brown hair, because he can ward off the rain, because he is a
good partner to one of the most beautiful (and sensuous, says Raven)
women of Middle-Earth, or because he has no fear and gives us a
glimpse of what Real Power is? Or
are they just annoyed because he dances and sings continually? Or
because he likes colourful clothes and is playful enough to stick a
feather in his hat? To the people who are annoyed by his style of
clothing I dedicate this
quote from the musical Hair: "There is a peculiar notion that elegant
plumage/ and fine feathers/ are not proper for the male/ when
actually/ that is the way things are /in most species.
[5b]Why has "Who is Tom Bombadil" become a standard question, and not
"Who is Goldberry?". The River-Daughter? Found by Tom? How clear is
that? Did anyone else think of "Wagner's" Rhine-daughters? What do we
know of the relationship of Tom and Goldberry? Are they "even"
married? Isn't it wonderful the way Tom is courteous towards
Goldberry, takes care she has fresh
waterlilies ("incidently" my favorite flowers), and helps out (without
reminding) with the household duties?
[5c] I like this remark by Goldberry: "The trees and the grasses and
all
things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves".

[6] *Yellow* cream? I only know white cream.

[7a] "The drink in their drinking-bowls seemed to be clear cold water,
yet it went to their hearts like wine and set free their voices". It
reminds one of the ent-draughts.
[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
and the hobbits have? I would say:
Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
tenor,
Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.
[7c] Isn't it wonderful the way in which the importance of singing is
stressed in this chapter: Old Grey Man Willow is a mighty singer,
Goldberry sings a rain-song, and everyone sings a lot. I do not think
it so strange. There is a theory that singing is more "natural" than
talking, and there are stories about how everyone sung in the
pre-TV/radio times.

[8] Moment of literary awe: "The sound of her footsteps was like a
stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of
night".

[9] Call it Chance, call it God, Providence, Fate, Destiny,
Synchronicity or Clearsightedness, as you will. You will have to make
another choice when Tom says later: "In the night little folk wake up
in the darkness" (In TH Beorn is also aware of the hobbits dreams) and
yet another choice
when it is said: "it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the
wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up (...)".

[10] Ofcourse Frodo has a (clairvoyant) dream about Gandald here. I
forgot wether it had already happened at that point in time or is
still bound to happen, but on the dream-level time is not important.

[11] Why does Tom wake the hobbits (and Goldberry) so mercilessly,
just
because he appears to need very little sleep himself? When a few hours
later he says: "Let them rest while they are able".....

[12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
(I
put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).

[13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small scale. Frodo
now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and other posters
apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange ideas. I don't
think
OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but what *do* we know: a
descendant of the fathers of the fathers of trees, dangerous and
powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.
[13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
filled
with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".

[14] Twice JRRT gives a detailed account of the pretty clothes
Goldberry
is wearing. Some designer! Were they ever really made, I
wonder? How about her shoes "like fishes'mail"? He also describes
Tom's
clothes repeatedly. In bright colours, like those of most
hobbits and dwarves. He must have liked bright and colourful clothes,
which he may have seen in South Africa (this is an example of a wild
speculation).

When you have a sense of humour, and are not overly sensitive to
JRRT's
works being parodised, do have a look at one of the
*funniest* chapters of the LOTR E-text. It is written by Aris
Katsaris:

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/book1_07.htm

Here are two exerpts which may give you an idea:

1)The four hobbits stepped over the threshold and stood
still, gaping. In a chair sat a woman; she wore nothing more
than a bathrobe, her long yellow hair tangled in an unruly
mess. It was obvious from her tired look that this lady had
listened to more silly songs than was bearable. It was also
obvious that Tom had good taste where women were concerned.
The opposite wasn't certain at all.

2)and still Tom went singing out into such times
as only ancient myths described, when people left the
doors unlocked at night, and even further back, when
those damn kids knew some proper respect for their
parents. Then suddenly he stopped, and they saw that
he nodded as if he had bored even himself to sleep.

With all his parody, Aris drew my attention to what I hadn't noticed
previously: that Goldberry is absent during most of the
conversation between Tom and the hobbits. In the end though, she "sang
many songs with them".

Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
and maybe wild speculations!

Henriette

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barbb

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 313



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 29 Feb 2004 23:24:50 -0800, heldenib.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

<snip excellent summary>

 >[1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
 >later as white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
 >Actually no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
 >and honey.

Thanks, Henriette (g). There is white beeswax, too, that has been
purified of all the propolis, etc., or so the online suppliers say
(and I thought for sure somebody replied in the "Candlers" thread with
a description of how to do that -- it involved boiling water -- but
now I can't find such a message either in my own files or those of
Google Groups).

That's an interesting comparison: Tom and Beorn. Both are strong,
"natural force" kinds of guys who are unafraid of the dangerous world
around them and have their own territory which they are easily able to
defend; both also give necessary aid to our traveling heros. With
Beorn, the honey fit in quite well with the overall bear motif; with
Bombadil, perhaps it's more a childhood pleasure thing? Just a guess,
from something said in one of the early threads that came up in a
Google search of threads for the word "beeswax" (one about the food
served in The House of Bombadil) that described the pleasure of
chewing beeswax and extracting every bit of sweetness from it.

Tom certainly could have gotten honey from a tree used by wild bees in
the forest. But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
certain breeds of cattle), and those certainly could have been
wandering over the downs, unseen by the hobbits during their very
limited visit and departure.

 >[2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
 >traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
 >Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
 >here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
 >hobbits very comfortable.

Somewhere I have read, and I don't know how true it is, that JRRT was
influenced in some of the names he used by actual names in the
American South, specifically, Kentucky. Hospitality certainly is
enshrined as a major virtue in this region of the world, too. Another
influence, perhaps?

 >[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
 >and the hobbits have? I would say:
 >Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
 >tenor,
 >Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.

Wonderful!! Agreed, though I also think Goldberry's voice would have
been soprano but with reedy overtones.

 >[7c] Isn't it wonderful the way in which the importance of singing is
 >stressed in this chapter: Old Grey Man Willow is a mighty singer,
 >Goldberry sings a rain-song, and everyone sings a lot. I do not think
 >it so strange. There is a theory that singing is more "natural" than
 >talking, and there are stories about how everyone sung in the
 >pre-TV/radio times.

They did, indeed, and whistled, too, at least in the countryside --
both were arts (and still are, though the number of individuals who
still tend to do one or the other spontaneously during normal
activities does seem to have decreased markedly over the years).

Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?

BTW, if you happen to have a cat, try talking gentle nonsense to it
(kittykittykitty or pusspusspuss ad infinitum will do) and then
varying the tones up and down, as if you're singing it. Maybe my
kitty-boy is an exception, but this just turns him into a feline
equivalent of butter. Definitely a means of communication there.
Hmmm...wonder if it would calm crying babies?

 >[8] Moment of literary awe: "The sound of her footsteps was like a
 >stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of
 >night".

A shared moment -- that description has always stood out for its
exceptional beauty.

 >[10] Ofcourse Frodo has a (clairvoyant) dream about Gandald here. I
 >forgot wether it had already happened at that point in time or is
 >still bound to happen, but on the dream-level time is not important.

Gandalf says later that it came too late, but it's interesting that
later, during the Council, Frodo can't remember when he had the dream.

 >Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
 >and maybe wild speculations!

Well, I've wildly speculated elsewhere about who Tom Bombadil is (he
is) and will just put up for consideration here, for whatever its
worth, a comparison between Bombadil and another character in the
stories: Gollum. Has anybody else noticed that both tend to verbalize
their stream of consciousness, and that these are at either extreme in
the spectrum? Tom's is one of unalloyed joy; Gollum's is pretty
nassty, my preciouss, oh yessss.

If we were to verbalize our own streams of consciousness at various
points over 24 hours, I think they might resemble the one or the other
extreme at times (although certainly most often they would be a muddle
somewhere in between, right about where most of the characters in this
story are). That is to say, we have a strong reaction to both
extremes. It's an interesting and effective literary device to bring
us further into the story, and the contrast between them adds some
good tension, too.

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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user1315

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 177



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.0402292324.9c0aad@posting.google.com...

 > [2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
 > traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
 > Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
 > here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
 > hobbits very comfortable.

Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including the
old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A king in
particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to entertain
guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and his fitness to be
king. While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to give and
to aid.

 > [3]Another mentioning of the mysterious: "You are an elf-friend", by
 > Goldberry to Frodo: "the light in your eyes and the ring in your
 > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)

If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told it,
then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the singular form
of the verb is fitting.

 > I am very fond of Tom and Goldberry, and I deliberately planned to
 > volunteer for this chapter well in advance, for fear it would fall
 > into the hands of the Tom-haters, of which quite a few are around. Why
 > do posters dislike Tom and call him e.g."the Unspeakable
 > Idiot with the yellow bootsies" (Taemon, and then there is Count
 > Menelvagor)?

I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.

Raafje.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jet

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Since: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 106



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote
 > [1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
 > later as
 > white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
 > Actually
 > no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
 > and honey.

Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).

Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
dairy products?


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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heldenib

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Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 269



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:35 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb RemoveThis @dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<pch6409l6opj75mf8t7igqjm52q5rdlsmi RemoveThis @4ax.com>...

 > <snip excellent summary>
 >
Thank you! I was very much tempted to write: "The hobbits spend the
night at Tom and Goldberry´s" for a summary..........

 > (snip)There is white beeswax, too, that has been
 > purified of all the propolis, etc., or so the online suppliers say
 > (and I thought for sure somebody replied in the "Candlers" thread with
 > a description of how to do that -- it involved boiling water -- but
 > now I can't find such a message either in my own files or those of
 > Google Groups).

I haven´t seen the description. I wonder if this white beeswax, from
which I´ve never heard, would smell as nice as the yellow one?
 >
 > That's an interesting comparison: Tom and Beorn. (snip comparison)
 > Google search of threads for the word "beeswax" (one about the food
 > served in The House of Bombadil) that described the pleasure of
 > chewing beeswax and extracting every bit of sweetness from it.
 >
I have been comparing them also, because I "hosted" Beorn´s chapter as
well as Tom´s. I think I could write a booklet comparing them, but my
treatise of Tom´s chapter was long enough as it was.... As for chewing
beeswax (with the honey still in it ofcourse) isn´t that delightful?

 > Tom certainly could have gotten honey from a tree used by wild bees in

Yes, or as someone in this thread suggested, he could swap goods with
Farmer Maggot (cream for songs?)

 > the forest. But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
 > color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
 > certain breeds of cattle),

Or it could have been whipped with honey...

 > Somewhere I have read, and I don't know how true it is, that JRRT was
 > influenced in some of the names he used by actual names in the
 > American South, specifically, Kentucky. Hospitality certainly is
 > enshrined as a major virtue in this region of the world, too. Another
 > influence, perhaps?
 >
What names are you thinking of? As for hospitality, I think this is,
or was, internationally considered a virtue. Almost sacred in the
Scandinavian countries and Italy, as I know from the opera´s I
mentioned. Also moving stories are told of people in poor countries
who share whatever little they have with strangers.

  > >[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
  > >and the hobbits have? I would say:
  > >Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
  > >tenor, Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.
 >
 > Wonderful!! Agreed, though I also think Goldberry's voice would have
 > been soprano but with reedy overtones.

Yes, and preferably accompanied by the sound of running rivers and
waterfalls:-)
 >
(on singing in days gone by)

 > They did, indeed, and whistled, too, at least in the countryside --
 > both were arts (and still are, though the number of individuals who
 > still tend to do one or the other spontaneously during normal
 > activities does seem to have decreased markedly over the years).

Although in NL the amount of people singing on a bike with a walkman
on their head is increasing....
 >
 > Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
 >
LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
may be busy singing somewhere?

 > BTW, if you happen to have a cat, try talking gentle nonsense to it
 > (kittykittykitty or pusspusspuss ad infinitum will do) and then
 > varying the tones up and down, as if you're singing it. Maybe my
 > kitty-boy is an exception, but this just turns him into a feline
 > equivalent of butter. Definitely a means of communication there.
 > Hmmm...wonder if it would calm crying babies?

There is a whole branch of science investigating the effects of all
kinds of sounds on all kinds of creatures (we owe "muzak" to that, if
that is how you also call the "musical wallpaper" in supermarkets
etc.). I think you could make a real contribution with your discovery!
 >
  > >Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
  > >and maybe wild speculations!
 >
 > Well, I've wildly speculated

LOL. Sometimes someone makes up a funny expression like Tamf did with
this one, which then lingers on AFT/RABT for some time...

 > elsewhere about who Tom Bombadil is (he
 > is) and will just put up for consideration here, for whatever its
 > worth, a comparison between Bombadil and another character in the
 > stories: Gollum. Has anybody else noticed that both tend to verbalize
 > their stream of consciousness, and that these are at either extreme in
 > the spectrum? Tom's is one of unalloyed joy; Gollum's is pretty
 > nassty, my preciouss, oh yessss.

An interesting comparison, which I certainly had never thought of.
I´ve had two colleagues on different occasions, who were constantly
(mostly softly)verbalizing their stream of consciousness. Amazing!
 >
 > (snip) It's an interesting and effective literary device to bring
 > us further into the story, and the contrast between them adds some
 > good tension, too.

Yes!

Henriette<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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heldenib

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:43 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jette Goldie" <jet.DeleteThis@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<oBN0c.6198$qY5.91666592@news-text.cableinet.net>...

 > Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
 > but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
 > wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
 > of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
 > of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).

LOL, what are you thinking of? I didn´t even think of wild bees, thank
you.
 >
 > Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
 > he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
 > dairy products?

Let´s say he had arranged some kind of trade/arrangement that suited
Farmer Maggot, I like that. Maybe Tom gave a sing/dance/juggle
performance once a week?

Henriette<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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heldenib

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:57 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Raafje" <jonlennart.beck.god.DeleteThis@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message news:<eNN0c.13246$jN1.5628@news.get2net.dk>...

 > Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including the
 > old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A king in
 > particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to entertain
 > guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and his fitness to be
 > king.

Could anyone just knock at his door? That would be something in this
day and age, for all the homeless.

 > While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
 > destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to give and
 > to aid.

One of the reasons IMO Tom embodies Real Power.
 >
  > > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
  > > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
 >
 > If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told it,
 > then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the singular form
 > of the verb is fitting.

Shouldn´t that be the other way round: the light tells it and the
light plus the ring tell it?
 >
 > I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.
 >
How about Goldberry:-)

Henriette<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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barbb

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Posts: 313



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:39 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2 Mar 2004 02:35:32 -0800, heldenib.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

 >Thank you! I was very much tempted to write: "The hobbits spend the
 >night at Tom and Goldberry´s" for a summary..........

Such an uproar that would have caused!!!! Glad you resisted
temptation.

 >I haven´t seen the description. I wonder if this white beeswax, from
 >which I´ve never heard, would smell as nice as the yellow one?

I don't know -- have gotten some of the yellow beeswax and should
probably get some of the white for comparison. Anyway, I think they
used beeswax in the House of Bombadil, for no other reason than that
tallow just doesn't fit there somehow.

 >Yes, or as someone in this thread suggested, he could swap goods with
 >Farmer Maggot (cream for songs?)

An excellent idea.

 >Or it could have been whipped with honey...

That would make it honey butter (which is delicious).

 >What names are you thinking of? As for hospitality, I think this is,
 >or was, internationally considered a virtue. Almost sacred in the
 >Scandinavian countries and Italy, as I know from the opera´s I
 >mentioned. Also moving stories are told of people in poor countries
 >who share whatever little they have with strangers.

Not having traveled internationally very much (though certainly the
British and Scottish are friendly and hospitable), I didn't realize
how much hospitality is respected everywhere. As they say in Latin
countries (and here in the States in quite a few places, too), mi casa
es su casa (my house is your house).

Don't get me going on the names -- having discovered I'm now "the
Grubb" (that's OK, Jim -- goes with the territory, I guess), I looked
in the phone book here in the deep South last night and found quite a
few Grubbs and Grubbses, if you follow me. I feel a sort of special
connection to them now (BG), though I know none of them. There are
some Bunces in Georgia ("Mimosa Bunce," in I think Bilbo's family
tree); however, will try to locate the source of that Tolkien
names/Kentucky remark, and look in some online directories and see if
a pattern can actually be found.

 >Although in NL the amount of people singing on a bike with a walkman
 >on their head is increasing....

Ah but if done in traffic, there is a darwinian limitation to it, no?
As you have suggested, all the radio and TV have just discouraged the
practice, which is too bad. I love in the books how Bilbo encourages
Frodo to bring back, among other things, songs and how Sam will say at
times, that's a nice song, I 'd like to learn that.

  >> Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
  >>
 >LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
 >may be busy singing somewhere?

Could be. Smile A tenor, perhaps?

  >> Well, I've wildly speculated
 >
 >LOL. Sometimes someone makes up a funny expression like Tamf did with
 >this one, which then lingers on AFT/RABT for some time...

It's a classic now, isn't it.

 >An interesting comparison, which I certainly had never thought of.
 >I´ve had two colleagues on different occasions, who were constantly
 >(mostly softly)verbalizing their stream of consciousness. Amazing!

Hope neither was a Gollum type, though Hey dol! Merry Dol! and so
forth could get pretty disorienting after a while, too, unless you're
a Goldberry type and can just flow out of the room for a break from
time to time.

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rpn

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Posts: 33



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.RemoveThis@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<ts5940hjrachbdrjp05ktbdlcelh6mrki3.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...


 > will try to locate the source of that Tolkien names/Kentucky remark


I'm pretty sure that what you have in mind is Guy Davenport's article
"Hobbitry," originally published in the *New York Times* and reprinted
in Davenport's collection *The Geography of the Imagination*.

RPN<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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celaeno

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Since: Mar 02, 2004
Posts: 12



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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You will not evade me, Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb DeleteThis @dbtech.net>:

 >But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
 >color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
 >certain breeds of cattle),

Yes. Milk is really a faintly yellowish white, for that matter.


Cel
Is it sekrit? Is it safe?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jet

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Posts: 106



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.0403020243.56f4f748@posting.google.com...
 > "Jette Goldie" <jet.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:<oBN0c.6198$qY5.91666592@news-text.cableinet.net>...
 >
  > > Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
  > > but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
  > > wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
  > > of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
  > > of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).
 >
 > LOL, what are you thinking of? I didn´t even think of wild bees, thank
 > you.
  > >

Old Tom seems to be the kind of being who could probably
communicate with wild things like bees - perhaps he could
tell them of a tasty stand of high-pollen flowers, or plant
(or encourage growth of) such plants near their hive?


  > > Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
  > > he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
  > > dairy products?
 >
 > Let´s say he had arranged some kind of trade/arrangement that suited
 > Farmer Maggot, I like that. Maybe Tom gave a sing/dance/juggle
 > performance once a week?

Wild fruit that Maggot wouldn't have time to go harvesting?
Herbs that grow in the Old Forest? WILD mushrooms - the
woodland kind - Maggot's own mushrooms were probably
"field" type - he might have welcomed a change.


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mightymartianc

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 29 Feb 2004 23:24:50 -0800,
Henriette <heldenib RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > [13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small scale. Frodo
 > now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and other posters
 > apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange ideas. I don't
 > think
 > OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but what *do* we know: a
 > descendant of the fathers of the fathers of trees, dangerous and
 > powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.

Since, as I recall, the Ents were put in Middle Earth at the request of
Yavana to protect the trees, I can only assume that Old Man Willow is either
an ent, or possibly a malevolent spirit.

 > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
 > filled
 > with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".

I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
hating those who go on two legs.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mightymartianc

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:28 pm
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On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:37:50 +0100,
Raven <jonlennart.beck.god RemoveThis @damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
 >
 > I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.

Yes, on the rereads I've done in the last six or seven years, I've found
myself looking forward to the chapter. Tom is such an enigma, and though
this was an obstacle when I first read the book, now it makes sense, though
I can't quite put my finger on why.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1315

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Posts: 177



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.0403020257.1a7278d7@posting.google.com...
 > "Raafje" <jonlennart.beck.god.RemoveThis@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:<eNN0c.13246$jN1.5628@news.get2net.dk>...

  > > Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including
  > > the old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A
  > > king in particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to
  > > entertain guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and
  > > his fitness to be king.

 > Could anyone just knock at his door? That would be something in this
 > day and age, for all the homeless.

Very probably yes, except enemies to the king, people he held a grudge
against. And even then a man, unfriend to the king, walking in and asking
for the king's hospitality might be granted it, because it would be a shame
for the king to betray his duty to be hospitable.
Mind you, beggars and drifters would be placed at the lesser tables,
while ranking guests would be given seats of high status. And status of
seating was very important to the ancients. King Arthur's Round Table was
round to indicate that some of his knights were not more important than
others. The incident that sparked the mutual killng of slaves and servants
in Njal's saga was a woman feeling slighted that she had to give her
high-status seat to another who came after, and who was better liked by the
hostess.
I don't know what would have happened if a man tried to scrounge off the
king for a long time. I have heard of the Beduin rules of hospitality: a
good hosts feeds and shelters his guest for three days; a good guest does
not stay longer than three days. I have also heard about some Arab (from
the Arabian peninsula) Beduins who were outraged at the lack of hospitality
of Iranian Beduins: not because the Iranian Beduins held hospitality in low
esteem, but because among them the honour of offering hospitality was the
prerogative of the local Beduin chieftain.
I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
king's doorstep and starve himself to death. This old custom supposedly
explains in part the IRA men starving themselves to death in prison.

   > > > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
   > > > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)

  > > If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told
  > > it, then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the
  > > singular form of the verb is fitting.

 > Shouldn´t that be the other way round: the light tells it and the
 > light plus the ring tell it?

Do a married couple go to a restaurant, or does a married couple go to a
restaurant?
The light and the ring tell it; the light + ring combination tells it.

  > > I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him
  > > in.

 > How about Goldberry:-)

Her too. But she's married, and I have standards. So much for wet
dreams. Smile

Raaf.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ttarvind

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Since: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 141



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Wes ðu Raven hal!

 > I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
 > if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
 > king's doorstep and starve himself to death. This old custom supposedly
 > explains in part the IRA men starving themselves to death in prison.

There was an ancient Irish law which (quoting from memory) said that "if
a man wrongs you, then you may compel him to arbitrate; and if he refuses
to honour the award, then you may seat yourself on the threshold of his
house and starve yourself till you die, and all will then know his true
worth." Fine sentiments, perhaps, but at the end of the day it's not of
much use to the fellow who was wronged.

--
Meneldil

Important letters which contain no errors will develop errors in the
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