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nospam113

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Since: Mar 09, 2004
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:30 am
Post subject: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony"
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)

Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
or sign up for coming chapters over there.

Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.

SYNOPSIS
---------
The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
which should take about 1 to two hours walking. The region of Bree-land
is in by small area which is inhabited, with wild lands [1] all around
that.

(Background on Bree)


The Men of Bree were brown, broad, and short, and had lived there for a
long time, descendents of the first Men to come there [2]. They were
more familiar with Elves, men, and dwarves than other 'Big people.' The
other group to live in Bree-land were hobbits, and *they* too (nudge
nudge, wink wink, see the italicized 'they' in the text) claimed to be
the oldest settlement of hobbits in the world. Nowhere but in Bree did
Hobbits and Men live together in cooperation, which is said to be
peculiar but 'excellent.'

Shire hobbits considered Bree hobbits to be dull and uncouth, and called
them 'Outsiders.' [4] While the Bree hobbits were decent people, some
of the non-Shire hobbits were like tramps, simply digging holes in the
ground to live in when they felt like it.

Synopsis (cont)
------------

They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests. A dark figure
enters the city after them by jumping over the gate. They find
'The Prancing Pony' inn, with a picture of a fat pony standing on its
hind legs. Barliman Butterbur is there, who is said to be fat and bald
[5]. Barliman's assistant is a cherubic and perky hobbit named "Nob"
[6]. He shows them to their rooms where they have dinner, and join the
company in the common-room.

There are many men, local hobbits and dwarves in the common-room, all
talking. The 4 are introduced, and he the local hobbits are friendly
and inquisitive. They ask a lot of questions, so Frodo lies and says
that he writing a book on the hobbits living outside the Shire. They
joyfully give him so much information that he would have been able to
write the book after all, but then they settle down after he doesn't
seem to be doing anything about it right there and then.

Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.
While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
the disappearance, so [9] Frodo steps in and says thank-you and
good-night from all of them. But the company asks for a song. So Frodo
begins to sing [10]. They love it, but during Frodos encore he gets
excited, and jumps up into the air and the ring slips on his finger [11] .

The whole crowd is amazed that Frodo has seemingly vanished into thin
air. He crawls into a corner, takes the ring off and comes before them,
but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
hurry [12] [13]. Butterbur tells Frodo to warn him and the guests
before doing any magic tricks again, because they don't take kindly to
surprises. They plan to leave by eight in the morning, and Butterbur
promises to tell Frodo something important that he has remembered. Then
Frodo goes off to bed, suspicious of everyone and everything.


QUESTIONS
------------

1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
returned' from over the sea?

3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.


"there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
Shirefolk, begging your pardon."

Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
what is that all about?


6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
boy from one of Dickens novels?

7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
from Tolkien or what?

8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)


9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
remember this, being a ranger.


10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
from Tolkien's made up poem.

Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
mythology it derives from.


11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

14. anything else you fancy.


Hasan Murtaza

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tar_elenion

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Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 207



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article
<qz85c.5456$lnp1.5203@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
nospam.DeleteThis@spam.com says...
 >
 > Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
 >
<font color=purple> > You can find previous discussions on <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltuile.org/</font" target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltuile.org/</font</a>>
 > or sign up for coming chapters over there.
 >
 > Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
 >
 > SYNOPSIS
 > ---------
<snip>
 > QUESTIONS
 > ------------

 >
 > 7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
 > from Tolkien or what?

"Mugwort. A Bree name; the name of a plant (Artemisia, French armoise,
akin to Wormwood, French armoise amère). Translate by the name of the
plant in the language of translation (for example German Beifuss) If
suitable; or by the name of some other herb of more or less similar
shape. There is no special reason for the choice of Mugwort, except its
hobbit-like sound."
Guide to Names in LotR


 >
 > 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
 >
?
Quote please.

--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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nospam113

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Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 35



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tar-Elenion wrote:
 >

 >
  >>8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
  >>
 >

 > ?
 > Quote please.
 >

Sorry I spelled it wrong, tankard. "He had a tall tankard in front of
him...". It's in the dictionary, now. Wink


Hasan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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heldenib

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Posts: 269



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hashemon Urtasman <nospam.RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote in message news:
 > Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

(excellent summary, Hesse!)
 > While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
 > birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
 > the disappearance,

But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
their minds", so (etc.)

 > but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
 > hurry [12] [13].

[12] [13],LOL
 >
 > QUESTIONS
 > ------------
 >
 > 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
 > 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
 >
 > 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
 > mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
 > remember this, being a ranger.
 >
I think he remembers it, having a good memory and intelligence, but on
this occasion is more worried the name of "Baggins" will come up.
 >
 > 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
 > to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
 > fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
 > from Tolkien's made up poem.

Or vice versa.
 >
 > 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
 > came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Actually this suggestion came before he started singing, and he
wonders about this suggestion/wish/command again after his vanishing.
But the question remains the same: who had this power over Frodo
and/or the Ring?
 >
 > 13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
 > and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
 > were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
 > obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it?

Yes, in any case less disturbed.

 > 14. anything else you fancy.
 >
I fancy, that someone enlightens me on the botanical names, of which I
only understand Thistlewool (that probably being the seeds of the
Thistle). I also know Heather, so Heathertoes is a playful variation
referring to the Hobbit's feet, or is it yet another plant? My
dictionary is not very helpful on this point.

Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
respective societies, or is it accidental?

Henriette<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user177

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Since: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 11



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nospam.DeleteThis@spam.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
qz85c.5456$lnp1.5203@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 >
 > Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
 >
<font color=purple> > You can find previous discussions on <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltuile.org/</font" target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltuile.org/</font</a>>
 > or sign up for coming chapters over there.
 >

 > 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
 > returned' from over the sea?

Could it be Elendil escaping Númenor and the foundation of the kingdom of
Arnor and Gondor?

 > 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
 > mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
 > remember this, being a ranger.

I don't quite understand the "being a ranger" part of the sentence...
Strider probably learned what happened at Rivendell, where Bilbo told him
the story of his disappearance. But rangers do not have memory problems, so
it is not surprising that Aragorn remembers Bilbo's story. Besides, knowing
Bilbo's passion for telling stories, I wouldn't be surprised if each time
Aragorn came to Rivendell, bilbo gave him an account of his farewell party!

 > 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
 > came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

I don't have the book at hand, but IIRC, he *felt* that someone (or
something!) suggested to put on the ring; nobody yelled put on your ring!
This need to put on the ring was probably an effect of the ring. At this
time, the Nazgul were very close, and the ring probably felt it and tried to
trick Frodo's mind.

 >
 > 12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
 > enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

The race issue has been discussed in these Forums many many times...
see this thread for example, which is one of many examples
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.google.ch/groups?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=atl81k07r" target="_blank">http://groups.google.ch/groups?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=atl81k07r</a>
f%40enews4.newsguy.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dracist%2Bgroup:alt.fan.tolk
ien%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.fan.tolkien%26
selm%3Datl81k07rf%2540enews4.newsguy.com%26rnum%3D1

Elwë<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jonmeltzeratmi

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Posts: 22



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Hashemon Urtasman" <nospam RemoveThis @spam.com> wrote in message
news:qz85c.5456$lnp1.5203@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 > They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
 > are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests.

The Fab Five are redecorating the Pony, and giving Butterbur a makeover.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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loisillon

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Since: Feb 06, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hashemon Urtasman <nospam RemoveThis @spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1.5203@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

tchak
 >
 >
 > 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
 > came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Not only in the room. The suggestion could be from anybody outside.
One of the Black Riders, likely. We know that they ride along the
streets of Bree to seek "Baggins".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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barbb

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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, heldenib RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

 >Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
 >before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
 >to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
 >and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
 >languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
 >respective societies, or is it accidental?

I don't know how it is for the Dutch and Germans, but Elves and
Hobbits would do it because the female Maia Arien guided the vessel of
the Sun.

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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barbb

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nospam DeleteThis @spam.com>
wrote:

 >1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

All the wide, varied terrain of Eriador at least down to the Greyflood
and perhaps all the way to the Gap of Rohan (if one wishes to discount
the Dunlendings for being scattered and "wild"), except for the Shire
and the little strip of Bree land, the Elven lands around the Havens
and at Rivendell, and the Dwarves' halls and mines in the Ered Luin.
Nowhere else did any large group of people dwell, except for the
families of the remaining Dunedain, but where that might have been was
always a secret.

 >4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
 >hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

I like that relationship between the two, with each group thinking the
other to be weird while both actually resembled each other quite a
bit. We're not really shown too much of the social mores of the
hobbits in Bree, but I would guess they are just as clannish and
sociable and prim and proper with each other as are their counterparts
in the Shire. Being around Men and, for a while anyway, at a major
crossroads, does seem to have kept the Bree hobbits more interested in
the outside world than the Shire hobbits were.

What's interesting is the reference to "probably many more Outsiders
scattered about in the West of the World in those days than the people
of the Shire imagined. Some, doubtless, were no better than tramps,
ready to dig a hole in any bank and stay only as long as it suited
them. But in the Bree-land, at any rate, the hobbits were ...."

So there were still wandering hobbits, either individually or in
groups, then?

 >6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
 >boy from one of Dickens novels?

I don't know about Dickens, but judging from Nob Hill in San
Francisco, and a quick look-up on the Web, a nob is a "an elegantly
dressed man (often with affected manners)." A touch of humor from
JRRT, perhaps, in giving the name to a servant.

 >7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
 >from Tolkien or what?

It's a plant -- we had them around up north on dry sandy areas where a
lot of other vegetation couldn't take hold; I haven't looked around
down south here for them. There might be too much competition for
them to thrive down here. They have kind of thick, succulent foliage
covered with a light fuzz, and have big long flower spikes late in the
summer. I think that mugworts were used medicinally many, many years
ago, perhaps as poultices.

 >9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
 >mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
 >remember this, being a ranger.

Yes, he knew, because of the Ring and also because of Frodo's assumed
identity. Gandalf was concerned enough about Bilbo's planned
disappearance to add a touch of his own to the party -- a sudden flash
when Bilbo disappeared. Gandalf would have told Aragorn about that,
and Aragorn would have shared the wizard's concern about news of a
magic event spreading, and also of people thinking of the
disappearance and putting two and two together, and connecting the new
hobbits at the Inn with the name of Baggins.

 >10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
 >to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
 >fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
 >from Tolkien's made up poem.

It's lovely, isn't it. One of my favorite poems in the book!

 >Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
 >nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
 >with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
 >mythology it derives from.

Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

 >11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
 >came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Well, Bill Ferny certainly knew something about it, as he fixed the
hobbits with a "knowing and half-mocking" expression. He couldn't
have made the suggestion, though -- not powerful enough, though he
certainly passed along the information. I wonder if that half-orc
southerner with him (Saruman's man, no?) might have been able to do
it? Perhaps not, and it came from the Nazgul who were already in
Bree, even though they didn't actually approach the Inn themselves.

 >12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
 >enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

Alluded to above -- many of the southerners are just men traveling,
but there are spies, and I think in the appendices somewhere it's said
that the one this night in Bree was indeed a half-orc?

 >13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
 >and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
 >were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
 >obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
 >'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
 >bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

Oh, I don't think so -- the Dwarves and Men, except Strider, who
remained soon got up and said good night to Butterbur but not to our
heroes. And from the way Butterbur reacted to Strider, the Rangers
weren't anywhere near the top of the social scale in Bree.

Imagine if you were at a hotel somewhere, relaxing in the bar and
suddenly saw something weird like that from one of your fellow guests!

 >14. anything else you fancy.

Who were the rest of the Men from the south who had come up the
Greenway, "on the move, looking for lands where they could find some
peace"? Did they head for the Shire after they left Bree, hearing
Lotho was looking for some muscle?

Also, I love the detailed mention of the food the hobbits had for
dinner here. It's one of the few complete menus given in the story.

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pogued

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Since: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 17



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:18 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, heldenib.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

 >Hashemon Urtasman <nospam.RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote in message news:
  >> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
 >
  >> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
  >> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
 >
 >I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
 >Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
 >somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.

I think Strider to be dark-haired, but not dark-skinned. The Numenorean
race is said to be fair-skinned, grey-eyed, and dark-haired. And don't
forget, his hair is shaggy and flecked with grey!

In older forms of English, and in a lot of languages I think, an adjective
applied to a person meaning "dark" or "bright" or "fair" usually meant
hair color, not skin color.


- Ciaran S.
_________________________________
"I'm too old for this. I should be at home,
playing canasta with Radagast."
-mst3k<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mightymartianc1

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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
Hashemon Urtasman <nospam.DeleteThis@spam.com> wrote:
 >
 > 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren heath,
barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn talking about
an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of things so fierce they'd
freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from memory here).

 >
 > 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
 > returned' from over the sea?

Thinking about it now, I'm not sure. I always assumed it referred to
Elendil's coming after the Downfall, but I suppose it could equally refer to
the Numenoreans returning to Middle Earth.

 >
 > 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
 > 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I think darker of complexion, darker hair, that sort of thing. This seems
to have been a trait of the Numenoreans. I believe this was also a trait of
the House of Beor, which may be where the Numenoreans got it from.

 >
 > 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
 > hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

It seems that the Shire and Bree regard each other with some distrust. It
seems to me that the Bree-folk consider the folk of the Shire to be
provincial. An accusation which I consider quite well founded.

 >
 > 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
 >
 >
 > "there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
 > Shirefolk, begging your pardon."
 >
 > Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
 > culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
 > are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
 > what is that all about?

 > 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
 > mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
 > remember this, being a ranger.

Well, we find out later that Aragorn and Bilbo are pretty good friends.
Beyond that, it appears that Bilbo's reputation is known.

 > 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
 > came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

That has puzzled me as well. I have no idea.

--
Aaron Clausen

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treetop

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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AC wrote:
 > On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
 > Hashemon Urtasman <nospam DeleteThis @spam.com> wrote:
  >>
  >> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?
 >
 > I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren
 > heath, barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn
 > talking about an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of
 > things so fierce they'd freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from
 > memory here).
 >

I am more under the impression that that the wild-lands are relative.
Shire hobbits take great care of their gardens and landscape. I was
under the impression that these lands were just not developed.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1315

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 177



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:57 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib RemoveThis @hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.0403150548.27aafe73@posting.google.com...

 > Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
 > before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
 > to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
 > and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
 > languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
 > respective societies, or is it accidental?

Those Norwegian dialects which retain all three grammaticall genders also
have the Sun as feminine (ei sol, sola), and the Moon as masculine (ein
måne, månen). My guess is that this is common to the Germanic languages,
and that Old English had it the same way. Can anyone call me a sage or a
dolt here?
Gaelic also has the Sun as feminine (grian, an ghrian). What about the
Slavonic languages?
<and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>
Perhaps a feminine Sun is natural to people who live in cool climates,
who experience her as a bringer of warmth when she's there, pining for her
when she is wan in winter, while people who live in warm climates, who
experience him also as a scorcher of crops and therefore an occasionally
hostile, strong warrior, find it natural to have the Sun as masculine.
Perhaps it also has to do with the presumably more patriarchal society of
the Romans, from whose language the Romance languages descend which you
mention above. The ancestor-societies to the northern ones may not have
been matriarchal, but women seem to have been freer and held in higher
esteem - remember the recent mention of Irish queens as often being of
higher rank than their king husbands. A society where a man's daughters
were often given no names of their own but were known only as their father's
first, second, third etc. daughter might be uncomfortable about something as
strong and important as the Sun being a woman.

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news37

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Since: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:08 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:50:26 -0800, Tar-Elenion
<tar_elenion RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

 >In article
 ><qz85c.5456$lnp1.5203@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
 >nospam@spam.com says...
  >>
  >>
  >> 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
  >>
 >?
 >Quote please.

Perhaps a mis-reading of 'tankard'?

'He had a tall tankard in front of him'

--
Pete Gray

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news37

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Since: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:13 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, heldenib.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

 >Hashemon Urtasman <nospam.DeleteThis@spam.com> wrote in message news:
  >> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
 >
 >(excellent summary, Hesse!)
  >> While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
  >> birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
  >> the disappearance,
 >
 >But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
 >their minds", so (etc.)
 >
  >> but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
  >> hurry [12] [13].
 >
 >[12] [13],LOL
  >>
  >> QUESTIONS
  >> ------------
  >>
  >> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
  >> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
 >

Where are Rangers said to be darker than even Bree-landers?

 >I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
 >Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
 >somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
  >>

Does Aragorn have dark skin?
'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'


--
Pete Gray

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