Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: "The Old Forest"

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:23:25 -0500, Steve Morrison
wrote:

>Paul S. Person wrote:
>
>> It might, except, of course, that the Ablative is missing. The /six/
>> Latin cases are: Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Ablative,
>> Vocative. The uses you give are all fine, though.
>>
>> Well, that's how I remember them. White's grammar gives the Vocative
>> before the Ablative.
>
>What, nobody cares anymore about the locative case?

I didn't read the Note in the Grammar.

In addition to the Locative, Latin once had an Instrumental.
Functionally, they are said to be coincident or merged with various of
the six surviving cases.

As the note puts it, "[t]hese six cases are the remains of a larger
number". Presumably, they are either mentioned in the writings of
Ancient grammarians or are found in really old inscriptions.

One of the advantages of a dead language (such as Classical Latin and
Classical Greek) is that it is possible to examine every single
written form and so write a complete grammar and a complete
dictionary. One of the disadvantages, of course, is that it is
possible to examine /only/ those forms that are found in the surviving
documents and inscriptions. Other forms may have existed; it is
impossible to be sure.
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:48:27 -0600, Weland wrote:

>Paul S. Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:29:37 -0600, Weland wrote:

<snippo. I apologize for the agressive tone I adopted; it was
uncalled-for>

>>> Deus amat agricolam-God loves a famer. O Farmer and last with the
>>>farmer, by the farmer, etc.
>>
>>
>> or "God loves the farmer". Since Latin doesn't have a definite
>> article, it's hard to say which is intended without more context.
>
>True enough, and depending on the period a writer might put in a
>demonstrative pronoun Deus amat illum agricolam.

Indeed one might. I was told at one time that that is how articles
developed in the Romance languages ("el", "il", "le" -- all from
"ille"): from the weakening of "ille", so that "Deus amat illam
agricolam" moved from meaning "God loves that farmer" (always a
specific, individual farmer) to "God loves the farmer" (which, in
English at least, could be a general statement with "the farmer"
referring to a specific group).
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:05:16 GMT, Odysseus
wrote:

>In article ,
> Paul S. Person wrote:
>
><snip>
>>
>> Classical Greek is, if anything, /worse/: it adds the dual and the
>> aorist and its verbs have more "parts" than Latin verbs do.
>
>Not to mention a middle voice, in addition to the active & passive we're
>used to.

Indeed. A /formidable/ language, one might say.
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Weland wrote:
> If so, Dutch, like modern English, has lost most of its case markers.
> But like English, (or Old English) Old Dutch had cases as well.
> Consider the word "day", daga:

That's really similar to modern German:

> dag the day der Tag
> dages of the day des Tages
> dage to/for the day dem Tage (old variant, but still in use)
> dag the day den Tag
>
> daga the days die Tage
> dago of the days der Tage
> dagon to/for the days den Tagen
> daga the days die Tage

Though perhaps the similarity is not so surprising

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Paul S. Person wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:23:25 -0500, Steve Morrison
> wrote:
>
>
>>Paul S. Person wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It might, except, of course, that the Ablative is missing. The /six/
>>>Latin cases are: Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Ablative,
>>>Vocative. The uses you give are all fine, though.
>>>
>>>Well, that's how I remember them. White's grammar gives the Vocative
>>>before the Ablative.
>>
>>What, nobody cares anymore about the locative case?
>
>
> I didn't read the Note in the Grammar.
>
> In addition to the Locative, Latin once had an Instrumental.
> Functionally, they are said to be coincident or merged with various of
> the six surviving cases.

Proto-Indo-European from which Latin, Greek, English, etc descend is
thought to have had 8 cases: Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative,
Instrumental, Locative, Ablative and Vocative.
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> Weland wrote:
>
>>If so, Dutch, like modern English, has lost most of its case markers.
>>But like English, (or Old English) Old Dutch had cases as well.
>>Consider the word "day", daga:
>
>
> That's really similar to modern German:
>
>
>>dag the day der Tag
>>dages of the day des Tages
>>dage to/for the day dem Tage (old variant, but still in use)
>>dag the day den Tag
>>
>>daga the days die Tage
>>dago of the days der Tage
>>dagon to/for the days den Tagen
>>daga the days die Tage
>
>
> Though perhaps the similarity is not so surprising

Indeed no, in spite of the fact that Modern German and Modern Dutch
descend from different Germanic languages, the fact is that they are all
Germanic, and modern German is one of the least changed (though not the
least).
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Paul S. Person wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:48:27 -0600, Weland wrote:
>
>
>>Paul S. Person wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:29:37 -0600, Weland wrote:
>
>
> <snippo. I apologize for the agressive tone I adopted; it was
> uncalled-for>
>
>
>>>>Deus amat agricolam-God loves a famer. O Farmer and last with the
>>>>farmer, by the farmer, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>or "God loves the farmer". Since Latin doesn't have a definite
>>>article, it's hard to say which is intended without more context.
>>
>>True enough, and depending on the period a writer might put in a
>>demonstrative pronoun Deus amat illum agricolam.
>
>
> Indeed one might. I was told at one time that that is how articles
> developed in the Romance languages ("el", "il", "le" -- all from
> "ille"): from the weakening of "ille", so that "Deus amat illam
> agricolam" moved from meaning "God loves that farmer" (always a
> specific, individual farmer) to "God loves the farmer" (which, in
> English at least, could be a general statement with "the farmer"
> referring to a specific group).

T'is true.
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Paul S. Person wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:05:16 GMT, Odysseus
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article ,
>>Paul S. Person wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Classical Greek is, if anything, /worse/: it adds the dual and the
>>>aorist and its verbs have more "parts" than Latin verbs do.
>>
>>Not to mention a middle voice, in addition to the active & passive we're
>>used to.
>
>
> Indeed. A /formidable/ language, one might say.

I never found it so, not as a language. Certain authors gave me
headaches. Plato's dialogues I have to admit I found more challenging
than Homer!
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Weland wrote:

> Taemon wrote:
>> Well, as I said, I looked it up on the wiki and understood the
>> principle at least It's not hard to understand. A very elegant
>> system.
> Did I understand that your native tongue is Dutch? I seem to remember
> that was brought up upthread.

It is.

> If so, Dutch, like modern English, has lost most of its case markers.

Not only then.

T.
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest"" 

Weland wrote:
> Paul S. Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:05:16 GMT, Odysseus
>> wrote:

>>> Not to mention a middle voice, in addition to the active & passive we're
>>> used to.

>> Indeed. A /formidable/ language, one might say.

> I never found it so, not as a language. Certain authors gave me
> headaches.

That looks like you missed the joke...

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: ""The Old Forest""