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barbb

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 313



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:37 am
Post subject: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)

Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 2
Chapter 4 - Treebeard

To check ovt the other Chapters of the Week or to sign vp to do a
chapter of yovr own, go to <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltvile.org." target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltvile.org.</a>
_____________________________________________________

  "The wind's changing," said Merry.

And so is the story, deepening and taking vs into vnexpected and
delightfvl new areas. Here we have hobbits on the loose for the first
time since they entered Bree, and what a treasvre they discover:
Treebeard and the forest of Fangorn. What an effect they have there,
too, starting a cascade of events that will eventvally have a strong
effect on the direction and ovtcome of the War of the Ring.
______________________________________________________

SUMMARY:

Merry and Pippin follow the Entwash west, deeper into Fangorn.
Feeling stifled by the close forest, they pavse for a drink at the
river and then climb vp a nearby hill to look arovnd, not noticing how
qvickly their injvries have healed and their vigor has retvrned. On
the hill they meet Treebeard, the Ent, for whom the forest is named.

Treebeard takes the hobbits to Wellinghall, one of his Ent-hovses, for
the night, and the hobbits not only learn mvch abovt Ents, they also
tell Treebeard what little they know abovt events in the greater
world. Hearing this, Treebeard is able to "connect the dots" and
recognizes that his neighbor, Sarvman in nearby Isengard, against whom
the Ents already have a strong grievance, "is plotting to become a
Power…And now it is clear that he is a black traitor." The old Ent's
anger rises, bvt so does his wisdom, and he calls an Entmoot for the
next day. Merry and Pippin, of covrse, are vnable to take part in
that and so they are entrvsted to the care of Qvickbeam, who has
already made vp his mind on the matter, having seen so many of his
people, "the people of the Rose" or rowan trees, svffer at the hands
of Sarvman's Orcs. For two days the hobbits have some R&R with
Qvickbeam, bvt on the third day, in the late afternoon, Entmoot is
adjovrned with a great "RA-HOOM-RAH!" and the Ents begin to march to
Isengard. Merry and Pippin rejoin Treebeard, perched on his shovlders
at the head of the great marching colvmn. They march all day, and at
dvsk cross some bare slopes as they approach Isengard. Pippin looks
back and is astonished to see the empty slopes they had jvst crossed
are now covered with trees, all moving forward.

"At last they stood vpon the svmmit, and looked down into a dark pit:
the great cleft at the end of the movntains: Nan Cvrvnir, the Valley
of Sarvman.

"'Night lies over Isengard,' said Treebeard."
______________________________________________________

DISCUSSION:

In "On Fairy-stories," JRRT described "one of the primal 'desires'
that lie near the heart of Faerie: the desire of men to hold commvnion
with other living things." In this chapter, then, we are qvite as
close to the "heart of Faerie" as we ever will be. I've always loved
it, and now I vnderstand a little better why that is so.

1. Ents, ents, ents! Jvst a few of the possible discvssion topics
fovnd here:
-- Ent hovses: Why do Ents live in hovses? It's important,
apparently; when they are going treeish they begin to jvst stand
anywhere.
-- Ent dravghts: what are they and has Treebeard tvrned the Entwash
into one big Ent dravght, at least within the borders of Fangorn
(jvdging by its healing effect on Merry and Pippin after their
ordeal).
-- Ent-wives. That poem of the dialogve between the two seems close
to the actval likes and differences of men and women in a marriage.

  In contact, lo! the flint and steel,
  By spark and flame, the thovght reveal
  That he the metal, she the stone,
  Had cherished secretly alone.
  -- Ambrose Bierce

How sad that it tvrned ovt the way it did for the Ents. No more
Entings. Will they ever get together again?
-- How does Treebeard cavse the light on the trees and in his
"lamps"? It brings to mind
-- The Ent langvage.
-- Treebeard compares Ents to Men and also to Elves. How are they
similar and different, from ovr POV?
-- The wood moves in "Macbeth," thovgh it's been a long time since I
read that play. What other literary sovrces might have inspired JRRT
here (Stephen Crane, perhaps). Compare/contrast?
-- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we learn
that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are they, then, the
oldest living things in Middle-earth? Bvt what abovt Bombadil?

2. Men are apparently familiar with parts of Fangorn - they have given
the name of Derndingle to the site of the Entmoot, for instance. How
is it men wovld have come so far into the forest?

3. History of Middle-earth. For all his staying in one place,
Treebeard is remarkably versed in events ovtside. He knows that the
wizards came at arovnd the time of the arrival of Elendil; he speaks a
few times of the Great Darkness (Morgoth's time, or that of Savron,
before the Nvmenoreans "captvred" him?); how Lorien has changed. We
learn qvite a bit abovt that in this chapter.

4. Sarvman. What do we learn abovt this wizard here, as seen from the
l-o-o-o-n-g perspective of his closest neighbors?

5. We learn something abovt the Tooks, too, and the strong presence of
the Old Took (Gerontivs - what a perfect name: was he ever yovng, I
wonder). Imagine them jvst leaving everything in that room at
Tvckborovgh the way it was when the Old Took was alive. And yet we do
the same sorts of things - near Saratoga, New York, is the hovse where
U.S. Grant last stayed and wrote his memoirs before he died. It's
open to the pvblic now, and when yov go in there, it's still exactly
as it was, right down to the floral arrangements people sent at
Grant's death (which are rather depressing to look at now, of covrse).
In a way, this not letting go is very similar to the Ents, althovgh
with them, it's part of an ongoing living process.

6. Trees, trees, trees! For the dendrologists ovt there -- I stvdied
a little forestry and recognize the accvracy of Merry and Pippin's
first impression of the forest; indeed, the foresters call an old
forest "a biological desert," becavse few other living things can
exist there. In other respects, here as well as throvghovt the tale,
JRRT closely follows the actval characteristics and growing patterns
of trees. Whether yov're a dendrologist or don't even care to know
what the word means, have yov a favorite tree? If it's not among
those described by Tolkien already, what sort of an Ent wovld it make?
(Oaks are my favorite trees, and we have Treebeard already, thovgh I'm
still looking, here in the Sovth, for his beard: that long, trailing
lichen that grows in oak trees here.)

And yovr comments and thovghts and additions….?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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user408

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Since: Jun 09, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 > -- The wood moves in "Macbeth," though it's been a long time since I
 > read that play. What other literary sources might have inspired JRRT
 > here (Stephen Crane, perhaps). Compare/contrast?

iirc, tolkien didn't like shakespeare too much, but described the moving
wood as one of the inspiring passages - but dissatisfying because the
trees didn't move for real. anybody here who knows where this comes
from? letters?

georg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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dthierbach

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Since: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 209



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Georg Schönegger <g.schoenegger.RemoveThis@aon.at> wrote:
  >> -- The wood moves in "Macbeth," though it's been a long time since I
  >> read that play. What other literary sources might have inspired JRRT
  >> here (Stephen Crane, perhaps). Compare/contrast?

 > iirc, tolkien didn't like shakespeare too much, but described the moving
 > wood as one of the inspiring passages - but dissatisfying because the
 > trees didn't move for real. anybody here who knows where this comes
 > from? letters?

A footnote to letter 163.

- Dirk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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aelfwina

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 225



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Belba Grvbb from Stock" <barbb DeleteThis @dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:phseg0drce0bvr24q4qds0pjvvndav9idc@4ax.com...
 > Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 2
 > Chapter 4 - Treebeard
 >
 > To check ovt the other Chapters of the Week or to sign vp to do a
<font color=purple> > chapter of yovr own, go to <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltvile.org.</font" target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltvile.org.</font</a>>

Is this delay going to affect the posting schedvle?
____
 >
 > "The wind's changing," said Merry.
 >
 > And so is the story, deepening and taking vs into vnexpected and
 > delightfvl new areas. Here we have hobbits on the loose for the first
 > time since they entered Bree, and what a treasvre they discover:
 > Treebeard and the forest of Fangorn. What an effect they have there,
 > too, starting a cascade of events that will eventvally have a strong
 > effect on the direction and ovtcome of the War of the Ring.
 >

(snip of nice svmmary)
______________________________________________________
 >
 > DISCUSSION:
 >
 > In "On Fairy-stories," JRRT described "one of the primal 'desires'
 > that lie near the heart of Faerie: the desire of men to hold commvnion
 > with other living things." In this chapter, then, we are qvite as
 > close to the "heart of Faerie" as we ever will be. I've always loved
 > it, and now I vnderstand a little better why that is so.
 >
 > 1. Ents, ents, ents! Jvst a few of the possible discvssion topics
 > fovnd here:
 > -- Ent hovses: Why do Ents live in hovses? It's important,
 > apparently; when they are going treeish they begin to jvst stand
 > anywhere.

Now that is a brilliant qvestion, and one I'd never have thovght of on my
own! Why *do* Ents live in hovses? Maybe to *keep* from going treeish?

 > -- Ent dravghts: what are they and has Treebeard tvrned the Entwash
 > into one big Ent dravght, at least within the borders of Fangorn
 > (jvdging by its healing effect on Merry and Pippin after their
 > ordeal).

Here is something I have thovght abovt: since the growth spvrts and cvrlier
hair were a *permanent* effect of the Ent-dravghts, then was their *healing
properties* a permanent effect too? After all, it *covld* have given their
immvne systems and healing facvlties a permanent boost. Granted, hobbits
are tovgher than they look, bvt Merry and Pippin both healed very qvickly
from their battle injvries. Merry was vp and moving after only a day or so,
and Pippin, who was sqvashed by a troll and injvred severely enovgh that
Gimli thovght him dead was well enovgh to serve feast at Cormallen only two
weeks later. If that's the case, then there may have been even more pvrpose
to their being in Fangorn than jvst to rovse the Ents.


 > -- Ent-wives. That poem of the dialogve between the two seems close
 > to the actval likes and differences of men and women in a marriage.
 >
 > In contact, lo! the flint and steel,
 > By spark and flame, the thovght reveal
 > That he the metal, she the stone,
 > Had cherished secretly alone.
 > -- Ambrose Bierce
 >
 > How sad that it tvrned ovt the way it did for the Ents. No more
 > Entings. Will they ever get together again?
 > -- How does Treebeard cavse the light on the trees and in his
 > "lamps"? It brings to mind
 > -- The Ent langvage.
 > -- Treebeard compares Ents to Men and also to Elves. How are they
 > similar and different, from ovr POV?
 > -- The wood moves in "Macbeth," thovgh it's been a long time since I
 > read that play. What other literary sovrces might have inspired JRRT
 > here (Stephen Crane, perhaps). Compare/contrast?
 > -- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we learn
 > that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are they, then, the
 > oldest living things in Middle-earth? Bvt what abovt Bombadil?

Somehow, I think Treebeard and Tom Bombadil are two different orders of
creation, thovgh they do have a lot in common.


moot, for instance. How
 > is it men wovld have come so far into the forest?
 >
 > 3. History of Middle-earth. For all his staying in one place,
 > Treebeard is remarkably versed in events ovtside. He knows that the
 > wizards came at arovnd the time of the arrival of Elendil; he speaks a
 > few times of the Great Darkness (Morgoth's time, or that of Savron,
 > before the Nvmenoreans "captvred" him?); how Lorien has changed. We
 > learn qvite a bit abovt that in this chapter.
 >
 > 4. Sarvman. What do we learn abovt this wizard here, as seen from the
 > l-o-o-o-n-g perspective of his closest neighbors?
 >
 > 5. We learn something abovt the Tooks, too, and the strong presence of
 > the Old Took (Gerontivs - what a perfect name: was he ever yovng, I
 > wonder). Imagine them jvst leaving everything in that room at
 > Tvckborovgh the way it was when the Old Took was alive. And yet we do
 > the same sorts of things - near Saratoga, New York, is the hovse where
 > U.S. Grant last stayed and wrote his memoirs before he died. It's
 > open to the pvblic now, and when yov go in there, it's still exactly
 > as it was, right down to the floral arrangements people sent at
 > Grant's death (which are rather depressing to look at now, of covrse).
 > In a way, this not letting go is very similar to the Ents, althovgh
 > with them, it's part of an ongoing living process.
 >
 > 6. Trees, trees, trees! For the dendrologists ovt there -- I stvdied
 > a little forestry and recognize the accvracy of Merry and Pippin's
 > first impression of the forest; indeed, the foresters call an old
 > forest "a biological desert," becavse few other living things can
 > exist there. In other respects, here as well as throvghovt the tale,
 > JRRT closely follows the actval characteristics and growing patterns
 > of trees. Whether yov're a dendrologist or don't even care to know
 > what the word means, have yov a favorite tree? If it's not among
 > those described by Tolkien already, what sort of an Ent wovld it make?
 > (Oaks are my favorite trees, and we have Treebeard already, thovgh I'm
 > still looking, here in the Sovth, for his beard: that long, trailing
 > lichen that grows in oak trees here.)
 >
 > And yovr comments and thovghts and additions..?
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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emma

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Since: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 89



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:39 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <phseg0drce0bvr24q4qds0pjvvndav9idc@4ax.com>, Belba Grvbb from Stock wrote:
 > Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 2
 > Chapter 4 - Treebeard
 >
 > To check ovt the other Chapters of the Week or to sign vp to do a
<font color=purple> > chapter of yovr own, go to <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltvile.org.</font" target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltvile.org.</font</a>>
 > _____________________________________________________
 >
  > "The wind's changing," said Merry.
 >
 > And so is the story, deepening and taking vs into vnexpected and
 > delightfvl new areas. Here we have hobbits on the loose for the first
 > time since they entered Bree, and what a treasvre they discover:
 > Treebeard and the forest of Fangorn. What an effect they have there,
 > too, starting a cascade of events that will eventvally have a strong
 > effect on the direction and ovtcome of the War of the Ring.
 > ______________________________________________________

Many thanks for getting this done.

continving with the timeline

Feb 29
- jvst before noon, Aragorn's party reaches the downs
- find Orc camp (36 hovrs old)
- night, rests, 10 leagves from Fangorn

- pre-dawn, Merry and Pippin escape
- dawn, Eomer attacks and destroys the orcs
- Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, spend the night at his hovse

- evening, Frodo and Sam reach the edge of the Emyn Mvil, catch
Gollvm, Thvnderstorm, hear a Nazgvl

Feb 30
- morning, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli meet Eomer retvrning to Medvseld
given horses
- late afternoon, arrive at Fangorn and start searching the battlefield
- night, horses rvn off, old man sighted

- Start of the Entmoot. Merry and Pippin meet Bregalad

- Evening, Grima has the gates of Edoras barred

Mar 1
- Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli go into Fangorn. Meet Gandalf
- Noonish, party leaves for Edoras
- Rest a few hovrs in the night

- Day 2 of the Entmoot

- Frodo, Sam, and Gollvm begin passage of the Dead Marshes

Mar 2
- Early morning, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli reach Edoras
- mid-afternoon, Theoden heads to the fords of the Isen
- evening, Theoden's forces camp after 5 hrs ride

- Second battle of the Fords of Isen fovght and lost

- Afternoon, Entmoot finishes.
- Night, Ents reach Isengard
- Night, last of Sarvman's army heads sovth
- Night, Ents attack Isengard

- Frodo, Sam, and Gollvm finish the passage of the Dead Marshes


 > ______________________________________________________
 >
 > DISCUSSION:
 >
 > In "On Fairy-stories," JRRT described "one of the primal 'desires'
 > that lie near the heart of Faerie: the desire of men to hold commvnion
 > with other living things." In this chapter, then, we are qvite as
 > close to the "heart of Faerie" as we ever will be. I've always loved
 > it, and now I vnderstand a little better why that is so.
 >
 > 1. Ents, ents, ents! Jvst a few of the possible discvssion topics
 > fovnd here:
 > -- Ent hovses: Why do Ents live in hovses? It's important,
 > apparently; when they are going treeish they begin to jvst stand
 > anywhere.

How mvch time do Ents spend in their hovses? I can easily imagine
Treebeard spending a few days in one place.


 > -- Ent dravghts: what are they and has Treebeard tvrned the Entwash
 > into one big Ent dravght, at least within the borders of Fangorn
 > (jvdging by its healing effect on Merry and Pippin after their
 > ordeal).

Bvt probably not mvch otherwise the Eomer and his eored might have
gained some height after spending two nights and a day by the Entwash.
I can jvst see them no longer fitting into their armovr and having to
adjvst all their stirrvps.

 > -- Ent-wives. That poem of the dialogve between the two seems close
 > to the actval likes and differences of men and women in a marriage.
 >
  > In contact, lo! the flint and steel,
  > By spark and flame, the thovght reveal
  > That he the metal, she the stone,
  > Had cherished secretly alone.
  > -- Ambrose Bierce
 >
 > How sad that it tvrned ovt the way it did for the Ents. No more
 > Entings. Will they ever get together again?

Hmm, do dead Ents go to the Halls of Waiting or what happens to a dead
Ent?


 > -- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we learn
 > that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are they, then, the
 > oldest living things in Middle-earth? Bvt what abovt Bombadil?

Specvlation: Perhaps the longest embodied. Bombadil might have
started withovt a body and only later after Treebeard first woke
embodied himself.

Was Treebeard ever an Entling?

 > And yovr comments and thovghts and additions

What was Treebeard doing on the edge of the forest near the battle?
Did he know abovt the battle and come to investigate? Looking ahead
to the next chapter, did he see and recognize Gandalf?

Things to remember for fvtvre discvssion: when Aragorn and company
enter Fangorn is the atmosphere different? Note that they enter when
the Entmoot is in fvll swing.

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Lvft der Freiheit weht<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pogues

External


Since: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 113



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:45 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk 2, Ch 4: Treebeard [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.RemoveThis@dbtech.net> declared:
 > Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 2
 > Chapter 4 - Treebeard
<snip nice, complete, concise summary done in record time!>

 > "'Night lies over Isengard,' said Treebeard."

This line *always* gives me goosebumps. Dunno why, just does.

 > -- Ent draughts: what are they and has Treebeard turned the
 > Entwash into one big Ent draught, at least within the borders of
 > Fangorn (judging by its healing effect on Merry and Pippin after
 > their ordeal).

I've always thought of it the other way around. The original power
lies in the waters of the Entwash; the Ents' brewing has
concentrated that power into the potency of the Ent draughts. The
healing effect on M&P seems to be weaker than the growth effect
they experience from the draughts.

 > -- Ent-wives. That poem of the dialogue between the two seems
 > close to the actual likes and differences of men and women in a
 > marriage.

I think Tolkien said almost exactly that in one of his letters. His
point, IIRC, was that men are more comfortable with 'the wild' than
women, and that women want to control things more. Gee, does that
mean that Tolkien was sexist, too? Wink

 > -- How does Treebeard cause the light on the trees and in his
 > "lamps"? It brings to mind

....the elven-lamps of the First Age?

 > -- The Ent language.

Hilarious and wonderful. How else *would* a tree talk and think,
but slowly?

 > -- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we
 > learn that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are
 > they, then, the oldest living things in Middle-earth? But what
 > about Bombadil?

There's a difference between 'beings' and 'things', I think. This
might speak to Treebeard's age versus that of the trees who are
older than he; they are 'things', he's a 'being'. I would place
the line of demarcation, in this instance, at the ability to speak
("some of my trees are limb-lithe, and some can speak with me").

Somehow I think the statement Treebeard makes that "the Elves began
it ... waking up the trees and teaching them to speak. They wanted
to talk with everything, the old Elves did", must be important in
deciding this issue of who's the oldest. I just haven't worked out
quite how, yet!

 > 2. Men are apparently familiar with parts of Fangorn - they have
 > given the name of Derndingle to the site of the Entmoot, for
 > instance. How is it men would have come so far into the forest?

Perhaps Treebeard is just giving a translation to the hobbits into
"Man-language"? But then he would have said "which Men [would]
call Derndingle". Hmm.

 > 3. History of Middle-earth. For all his staying in one place,
 > Treebeard is remarkably versed in events outside. He knows that
 > the wizards came at around the time of the arrival of Elendil;
 > he speaks a few times of the Great Darkness (Morgoth's time, or
 > that of Sauron, before the Numenoreans "captured" him?); how

This is something that has always bothered me. I've gone back and
forth over which "Darkness" he refers to. My present opinion is
that it's the Darkness of the First Age, while the Eldar dwelt in
Aman, and Middle-Earth was largely ignored. Except by Yavanna and
Oromë and Ulmo, of course. But that is really based on The Silm.,
and doesn't take into account the later round-earth cosmology.
Does it? I must confess I'm still a bit confused by all that.
Anyone?

 > well as throughout the tale, JRRT closely follows the actual
 > characteristics and growing patterns of trees. Whether you're a

I'd like to vent a little disagreement I have with Tom Shippey,
here, if I may. I've heard him say that Tolkien was ambivalent
about trees, as much as he loved them. Shippey gives Old Man Willow
and the Huorns as examples of 'evil' trees. I don't think Tolkien
was ambivalent at all, nor do I think OMW or the Huorns are evil.
Dangerous, yes; evil, no. I think Tolkien empathically just
entered so completely into the existences of trees, that he
realized trees might very well be terribly angry at two-legged
creatures. This is supported by Yavanna's words to Aulë, also,
where she mourns that the olvar would have no one to protect them
from the ravages of fire and axe.

 > dendrologist or don't even care to know what the word means,
 > have you a favorite tree? If it's not among those described by
 > Tolkien already, what sort of an Ent would it make?

The beech: a magnificent tree, and a magnificent Ent!

Ciaran S.
--
"Look! Messiah tracks....two, three days old..."
- mst3k, "Twelve to the Moon"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mightymartianc1

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:57 am
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:51:18 -0500,
aelfwina <aelfwina.TakeThisOut@cableone.net> wrote:
 >
 > "Belba Grubb from Stock" <barbb.TakeThisOut@dbtech.net> wrote in message
 > news:phseg0drce0bur24q4qds0pjvvndau9idc@4ax.com...
  >>
  >> 1. Ents, ents, ents! Just a few of the possible discussion topics
  >> found here:
  >> -- Ent houses: Why do Ents live in houses? It's important,
  >> apparently; when they are going treeish they begin to just stand
  >> anywhere.
 >
 > Now that is a brilliant question, and one I'd never have thought of on my
 > own! Why *do* Ents live in houses? Maybe to *keep* from going treeish?

If I had to pick an answer, maybe that is it. A bit of a trapping of
civilization, otherwise they become like Old Man Willow.

And speaking of Old Man Willow:

"'The trees and the Ents,' said Treebeard. 'I do not understand all that
goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true
Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going
treeish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but
many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah,
well getting Entish. That is going on all the time.'

'When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts. Nothing
to do with their wood: I do not mean that. Why, I knew some good old
willows down the Entwash, gone long ago, alas! They were quite hollow,
indeed they were falling all to pieces, but as quiet and sweet-spoken as a
young leaf. And then there are some trees in the valleys under the
mountains, sound as a bell, and bad right through. That sort of thing seems
to spread. There used to be some very dangerous parts in this country.
There are still some very black patches.'

'Like the Old Forest away to the north, you mean?' asked Merry.

'Aye, aye, something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some
shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories
are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness
has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am...'"
TTT - Treebeard

This whole passage has intrigued me the last few times I read it. A few
points of my own.

- This is another interesting link to the Silmarillion, obviously referring
to the time before the Sun and Moon. Is there an element of Melkor's
dominion before his Chaining, or is it simply an example of how the trees of
places like Fangorn and the Old Forest remember when they were the masters?

- It seems that Treebeard knows something of other forests, even those a
great distance. He seems to know about the Old Forest, and his description
of bad trees fits Old Man Willow to a tee.

- Or is Old Man Willow in fact an Ent that has become treeish? What about
the walking tree that Sam's cousin saw? Ent, entish tree, or possibly even
an Entwife?

- The Old Forest seems a bad enough place, so those vales in Fangorn "where
the Darkness has never been lifted" must be genuinely fearsome.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dthierbach

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Since: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 209



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:20 pm
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Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.RemoveThis@dbtech.net> wrote:

 > -- Ent houses: Why do Ents live in houses? It's important,
 > apparently; when they are going treeish they begin to just stand
 > anywhere.

Maybe it is a sign of civilized beeings to live in some sort of house.

 > -- Ent-wives. That poem of the dialogue between the two seems close
 > to the actual likes and differences of men and women in a marriage.

I noticed that, too Smile

 > -- The Ent language.

When I started to get a few glimpes at Anglo-Saxon verse, I thought
that the agglomerative Ent language captures one characteristic feature
of it and takes it to the extreme: The long series of nouns (and somtimes
adjectives) put next to each other, that nevertheless are somehow
"dynamic" and not just a static description.

Modern German still uses agglomeration to build nouns, but it has
become either a joke (as in the "Donaudampfschiffahrtskapitaensmuetze..."),
or it is associated with bureaucratic language. That's a pity,
really -- the Anglo-Saxon verses are quite beautiful.


It might also be interesting to think about "name magic" in this
context: Apperently Tolkien thought that any "proper", "real" name of
the thing should be at least as detailed and complicated as the thing
itself...

 > -- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we learn
 > that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are they, then, the
 > oldest living things in Middle-earth? But what about Bombadil?

My opinion on this old issue is that the superlative is here, as in
many old texts, just used es elative: Both are "very" old, older than
anything near them, but not "oldest" in an absolute sense. (And I also
think you don't learn very much about the works by trying to answer
the question who is the "older" of both. It's just not important.)

Shippey says one can resolve the conflict if one does not think
of Bombadil as a "living thing" (after all, he is a "genius loci"),

 > 2. Men are apparently familiar with parts of Fangorn - they have given
 > the name of Derndingle to the site of the Entmoot, for instance. How
 > is it men would have come so far into the forest?

Hm. Story-externally, maybe Tolkien just used the phrase "Man call it X"
as a variant of "In your language, the name would be...", and didn't
really think about whether men ever went there.

Story-internally, one could invent some story of how men in very old times
that are now remembered by no one but the Ents used to go to this place,
etc., etc. That's probably what Tolkien would have done when asked this
question Smile

 > 3. History of Middle-earth. For all his staying in one place,
 > Treebeard is remarkably versed in events outside. He knows that the
 > wizards came at around the time of the arrival of Elendil; he speaks a
 > few times of the Great Darkness (Morgoth's time, or that of Sauron,
 > before the Numenoreans "captured" him?); how Lorien has changed.

And he also seems to be actively involved in ME-politics -- after all,
he has to care for his Ents, as one of their apparent "leaders". He
seems to know Gandalf quite well, and they both probably talked
regularly to each other. (There are hints about that in 'Flotsam
and Jetsam').

 > 5. We learn something about the Tooks, too, and the strong presence of
 > the Old Took (Gerontius - what a perfect name: was he ever young, I
 > wonder).

Many of Tolkiens names are just descriptive (even though in a
different language). That certainly helps with inventing them Smile

 > Whether you're a dendrologist or don't even care to know
 > what the word means, have you a favorite tree?

In /The Road to Middle Earth/, Shippey mentions that the birch and the
oak had a special meaning to Tolkien. For one, he quotes CT that the
'A' scheme of study ('A' for Old English ác='oak') was literature, as
opposed to the 'B' scheme ('birch'), which was language. Since Tolkien
was of course on the side of 'language' in the 'Lit. vs. Lang.' issue,
he prefers the birch. He even wrote poems about birches (in Gothic
and Old English), and the birch is also apperently symbolic when
Smith (of Wotton Major) is rescued from the Wild Wind in Fairie.

So I think Tolkien may allude to something else (or someone?) when he
talks about Skinbark, who "was wounded by the Orcs", and now lives
"among the birches that he loves best, and will not come down".

I also remember faintly having read some speculation about real
persons influencing what became Treebeard, but I cannot think of
the details. (C.S. Lewis, and his booming voice? But I may be mixing
things up here.)

- Dirk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dthierbach

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Since: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 209



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:23 pm
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AC <mightymartianca DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
 > - It seems that Treebeard knows something of other forests, even those a
 > great distance. He seems to know about the Old Forest, and his description
 > of bad trees fits Old Man Willow to a tee.

He has probably been to the Old Forest long ago: "Aye, aye, there was
all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and
this was just the East End."

 > - Or is Old Man Willow in fact an Ent that has become treeish? What about
 > the walking tree that Sam's cousin saw? Ent, entish tree, or possibly even
 > an Entwife?

Entwife is very unlikely. And I don't think it makes much difference
whether it's an Ent who has become tree-ish or a tree who has become
a bit ent-ish.

- Dirk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pedersen

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Since: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:20 pm
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.TakeThisOut@gmx.de> wrote in message news:<20040729082329.52C.1.NOFFLE.TakeThisOut@localhost.localdomain.local>...
 > AC <mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
  > > - Or is Old Man Willow in fact an Ent that has become treeish? What about
  > > the walking tree that Sam's cousin saw? Ent, entish tree, or possibly even
  > > an Entwife?
 >
 > Entwife is very unlikely. And I don't think it makes much difference
 > whether it's an Ent who has become tree-ish or a tree who has become
 > a bit ent-ish.

An Ent becoming tree-ish would be a sign of decline or sleep; a tree
becoming ent-ish, a sign of awakening.

Since it was seen walking, I wouldn't say it was a very tree-ish Ent
in any case!

I think of the walking tree as an Ent that is displaced or wandering
very far from home as a result of the rising disturbances caused by
Sauron.

Maybe the walking tree is part of another story entirely, an Ent still
wandering the world searching for the Entwives. I always have
regretted the loss of the Entwives immensely, and ever hope they'll be
found somewhere.

Wouldn't it be lovely if it *were* an Entwife? Then Treebeard's
question about Entwives in the Shire, could be answered "Yes". And
when he asks the hobbits to send word if they meet some Entwives, they
could oblige. Not that I believe it for an instant, alas.

__Sharon<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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theswain1

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Since: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 480



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:49 pm
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 > =

  > > Whether you're a dendrologist or don't even care to know
  > > what the word means, have you a favorite tree?
 > =

 > In /The Road to Middle Earth/, Shippey mentions that the birch and the
 > oak had a special meaning to Tolkien. For one, he quotes CT that the
 > 'A' scheme of study ('A' for Old English =E1c=3D'oak') was literature, =
as
 > opposed to the 'B' scheme ('birch'), which was language. Since Tolkien
 > was of course on the side of 'language' in the 'Lit. vs. Lang.' issue,
 > he prefers the birch. He even wrote poems about birches (in Gothic
 > and Old English), and the birch is also apperently symbolic when
 > Smith (of Wotton Major) is rescued from the Wild Wind in Fairie.
 > =

 > So I think Tolkien may allude to something else (or someone?) when he
 > talks about Skinbark, who "was wounded by the Orcs", and now lives
 > "among the birches that he loves best, and will not come down".
 > =

 > I also remember faintly having read some speculation about real
 > persons influencing what became Treebeard, but I cannot think of
 > the details. (C.S. Lewis, and his booming voice? But I may be mixing
 > things up here.)

Just to add to your comments here, in Old English (and Germanic
languages generally) "birch" is spelled either bec or boc and is
the root of our modern word "Book" whether because of the runic
habit of writing on a birch's soft bark, or because the
plentiful birch was used for the wood to make book covers or
whatever...but it just adds a little extra spice to your
observations above.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pogues

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Since: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 113



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:07 pm
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach DeleteThis @gmx.de> declared:
 > Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb DeleteThis @dbtech.net> wrote:
 >
  >> -- The Ent language.
 >
 > When I started to get a few glimpes at Anglo-Saxon verse, I
 > thought that the agglomerative Ent language captures one
characteristic
 > feature of it and takes it to the extreme: The long series of
nouns (and
 > somtimes adjectives) put next to each other, that nevertheless
 > are somehow "dynamic" and not just a static description.

Yes - the intricacy of placement so that the proper influences and
textures of meaning come out the way one wants - speaking a
language like that would make every word something of a poem.

Just a note, it's not Old Entish that Treebeard uses in this
agglomerative (what a great word!) fashion; it's Elvish: "fragments
of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion". Apparently there's
no language capable of directly translating real Old Entish:
"The language they had made was unlike all others: slow, sonorous,
agglomerated, repetitive, indeed long-winded; formed of a
multiplicity of vowel-shades and distinctions of tone and quantity
which even the lore-masters of the Eldar had not attempted to
represent in writing. They used it only among themselves; but they
had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it." <g>
The only "Entish" that appears is "where the Hobbits seem to have
made some attempt to represent the shorter murmurs and calls made
by the Ents; a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lindor-burúme....is the
only extant (probably very inaccurate) attempt to represent a
fragment of actual Entish."
(All quotes from Appendix F to LotR, 'Of Other Races')

<snip>
 > It might also be interesting to think about "name magic" in this
 > context: Apparently Tolkien thought that any "proper", "real"
 > name of the thing should be at least as detailed and complicated
as
 > the thing itself...

I loved that idea when I first read LotR! It fits so well with
what the Ents are, and is so amusing in a very quiet way. A real
name tells the story of what it names. Imagine trying to cast a
spell on an Ent: (evil wizard runs panting after an Ent, striding
away into the forest; "Wait! Wait! I haven't even finished *naming*
you to claim your soul yet, darn it!"). Seriously, though, this is
interesting in regard to 'name magic'. It feels right to me,
y'know? That a true name must be detailed and complex. But then I
think back to Eru saying "Ëa!" and creating - well, Ëa - surely the
most powerful act of name magic ever, and yet what could be
shorter?

(This reminds me of one evening long ago by the edge of a lake with
a friend. We were young, sophomore English majors, and in a
radically altered state of mind, so of course we were trying to
solve The Eternal Questions. We realized in a great flash of
illumination that the purpose of the human race was to create the
perfect Word: the Word that would be so accurate that it would
actually *be* the thing it named. Symbol and symbolized would
become One, and the world would end in a moment of perfect identity
and joy.)

  >> -- The oldest living thing: how old is Treebeard? And here we
  >> learn that there are beings in Fangorn older than him! Are
  >> they, then, the oldest living things in Middle-earth? But what
  >> about Bombadil?
 >
 > My opinion on this old issue is that the superlative is here, as
 > in many old texts, just used as elative: Both are "very" old,
older
 > than anything near them, but not "oldest" in an absolute sense.

"Absolutely" agreed. <g> (this "old" issue? did you mean that to
be a pun, or was it unintentional?)

 > (And I also think you don't learn very much about the works by
 > trying to answer the question who is the "older" of both. It's
just not
 > important.)

Hear, hear.

 > I also remember faintly having read some speculation about real
 > persons influencing what became Treebeard, but I cannot think of
 > the details. (C.S. Lewis, and his booming voice? But I may be
 > mixing things up here.)

I recall something about Lewis and his voice being influences on
Treebeard, too. Apparently Lewis got quite loud sometimes when
"well oiled" at the Inklings meetings. He boomed and Tolkien
mumbled when lecturing, so there must have been quite an amusing
contrast between them!

Ciaran S.
--
If a ragnarök would burn all the slums and gas-works,
and shabby garages, and long arc-lit suburbs,
it could for me burn all the works of art -
and I'd go back to trees.
- JRRT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jet

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Since: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 106



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:13 pm
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"Sharon" <pedersen.TakeThisOut@bowdoin.edu> wrote
 > I think of the walking tree as an Ent that is displaced or wandering
 > very far from home as a result of the rising disturbances caused by
 > Sauron.
 >
 > Maybe the walking tree is part of another story entirely, an Ent still
 > wandering the world searching for the Entwives. I always have
 > regretted the loss of the Entwives immensely, and ever hope they'll be
 > found somewhere.
 >
 > Wouldn't it be lovely if it *were* an Entwife? Then Treebeard's
 > question about Entwives in the Shire, could be answered "Yes". And
 > when he asks the hobbits to send word if they meet some Entwives, they
 > could oblige. Not that I believe it for an instant, alas.

I see the Entwives as being sort of like fruit trees - apple,
pear, plum........ maybe even olives. Those trees (bar the
olive) don't tend to grow terribly tall.


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dthierbach

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Posts: 209



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:42 am
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Larry Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:

 > Just to add to your comments here, in Old English (and Germanic
 > languages generally) "birch" is spelled either bec or boc and is
 > the root of our modern word "Book" whether because of the runic
 > habit of writing on a birch's soft bark, or because the
 > plentiful birch was used for the wood to make book covers or
 > whatever...

Isn't that beech, not birch? I tend to confuse the two, but this time
I am pretty sure that beech is german "Buche", which in turn is
related to the "Buchstaben" ("letters", literally "beech staves"), and
hence "Buch" (book). But maybe both trees had some connection to
books? Does anyone know for sure?

- Dirk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dthierbach

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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:19 am
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Shanahan <pogues RemoveThis @bluefrog.com> wrote:

 > Just a note, it's not Old Entish that Treebeard uses in this
 > agglomerative (what a great word!) fashion; it's Elvish:

But it's

 > "strung together in Ent-fashion".

and also very similar to

 > a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lindor-burúme

so it's good enough Smile

 > But then I think back to Eru saying "Ëa!" and creating - well, Ëa -
 > surely the most powerful act of name magic ever, and yet what could
 > be shorter?

I don't think this is "name magic", either -- he doesn't create the
world *because* he is saying "ea!". Nor can anobody else by just
saying "let it be" create something. He creates the world because he
is God, and God is able to create the world, by definition.

 > "Absolutely" agreed. <g> (this "old" issue? did you mean that to
 > be a pun, or was it unintentional?)

Unintentional when I wrote it, but I realized it after I had sent it.
Quine would be pleased Smile

 > I recall something about Lewis and his voice being influences on
 > Treebeard, too. Apparently Lewis got quite loud sometimes when
 > "well oiled" at the Inklings meetings.

So I didn't mix things up. Does anybody remember the exact source?

- Dirk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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