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Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West

 
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spamgard

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 2048



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:20 am
Post subject: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)

Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West

To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org

Sam wakes to find Frodo being interrogated by Faramir, Captain of
Gondor. After a brief interruption by Sam, we learn that Faramir is the
brother of Boromir and believes him to be dead. As they journey to a
secret refuge, Faramir continues to question Frodo about Isildur's Bane.
At the secret refuge (Henneth Annun), Sam and Frodo eat with the Men of
Gondor. Afterwards, Faramir talks about the history of Gondor and the
Numenoreans. The talk turns to Elves and Lorien, and Sam inadvertently
mentions the Ring. Faramir is true to his words about Isildur's Bane,
and assures the hobbits that they need not fear that he will try to take
the Ring. Frodo and Sam sleep safely that night in Henneth Annun.

Chapter Summary
===============

[Sam wakes up]

At the end of the previous chapter, Sam had fallen asleep after seeing
the battle between the Rangers of Ithilien and the Southrons. This
chapter begins as he wakes up and finds that it is now late afternoon.

[Faramir interrogates Frodo]

Sam sees Frodo being questioned by Faramir in front of a semicircle of
200-300 men. These are the surviving rangers that fought under Faramir's
command in the recent battle. Faramir has learnt from his first
encounter with Frodo and Sam that they travelled with Boromir and know
the words of Boromir's dream concerning Isildur's Bane. As Sam listens,
he realises that Faramir wants to know more about Isildur's Bane and is
aware that Frodo is hiding the full truth from him. Further questioning
from Faramir leads Frodo to reveal the lineage of Aragorn, and that he
bears Elendil's sword. This provokes amazement from the gathered men:

"The sword of Elendil! The sword of Elendil comes to Minas Tirith! Great
tidings!"

Faramir and Frodo debate Boromir's reaction to Aragorn's claim. Then
Frodo tells Faramir to let him carry out his appointed errand, and asks
Faramir to return to Minas Tirith to speak with Boromir when he returns.
Faramir finds this strange, and questions Frodo further about Boromir.
Both Frodo and Faramir choose their words carefully, but Frodo falters
when Faramir implies that Boromir is dead. Frodo and Faramir trade a few
more suggestive questions and evasive answers, until Sam can take no
more.

[1-3]

[Sam interrupts]

Sam bursts into the conversation and cuts through the carefully chosen
words of Frodo and Faramir, putting the matter plainly and simply:
Faramir is accusing Frodo of murdering Boromir. Faramir shows restraint
and calmly tells Sam that the questioning is needed to judge fairly
whether he should slay them, as the law demands. He tells Sam that Frodo
has greater wit than Sam, and that Sam should sit in silence and listen.

[Vision of Boromir dead]

Sam sits down with a red face. Faramir then tells the hobbits that
Boromir was his brother, and proceeds to tell them the tale of why he
believes Boromir to be dead. He heard the horn of Boromir blowing 11
days ago. Three nights later he was watching the shores of Anduin:

"But that night all the world slept at the midnight hour. Then I saw, or
it seemed that I saw, a boat floating on the water [...] An awe fell on
me, for a pale light was round it. [...] the boat turned towards me, and
stayed its pace, and floated slowly by [...] it seemed to me as it
passed under my gaze that it was almost filled with clear water, from
which came the light; and lapped in the water a warrior lay asleep."

Faramir recognised this warrior, pierced with many wounds, as Boromir,
his brother. He cried out after him, but the boat passed on into the
night. Frodo recognises the golden belt of Lorien that Faramir described
on Boromir's body, and says that the boat is also from Lorien. Faramir
laments that Boromir went ever to that Hidden Land:

"Boromir, O Boromir! What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not?
What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to
Laurelindórenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan
riding home in the morning?"

Faramir adds that the cloven horn also returned on the River.

[4-5]

[Journey to Henneth Annun]

Frodo reacts to the news of Boromir's death with dismay, fearing that
the rest of the Fellowship were also slain. Once more he implores
Faramir to let him go:

"Go back, Faramir, valiant Captain of Gondor, and defend your city while
you may, and let me go where my doom takes me."

Faramir attempts to reassure Frodo, and further says that he no longer
doubts Frodo's story. Nevertheless, he defers his full decision until he
can think and question them some more. Frodo and Sam travel with Faramir
and his guards to a secret refuge. During the journey, Faramir and Frodo
talk at length once more.

[Faramir on Isildur's Bane]

Faramir reveals that he avoided questioning Frodo closely about
Isildur's Bane in front of so many men. He then hazards a guess that it
is a mighty heirloom that caused conflict within the Fellowship. Faramir
recounts what he knows of Numenorean lore, straying often into other
matters. He learns from Frodo that Gandalf fell in Moria, and Frodo
learns that Boromir was displeased that the Ruling Stewards still
awaited the return of the King. We hear that Faramir knows of "the Great
Battle that was fought upon Dagorlad in the beginning of Gondor", and
that Isildur took something from the hand of Sauron. Faramir speculates
once more, surmising that Boromir may have been allured by the power of
this Thing. Faramir declares that he does not desire to use the devices
of the Enemy:

"I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas
Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon
of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory."

Following more eloquence from Faramir, Frodo is tempted to trust him
fully and reveal all to "this grave young man, whose words seemed so
wise and fair". But the thought that he and Sam might be all that is
left of the Fellowship holds him back, as well as the memory of Boromir:
"unlike they were, and yet also much akin."

[Blindfolded arrival at Henneth Annun]

They walk on in silence for a while, and the beauty of the surrounding
land is described in detail. Sam has not forgotten Gollum, and once,
looking back quickly, catches a glimpse of him following them. It is
near sunset when they near their destination. Sam and Frodo are
blindfolded and guided to the hidden refuge. Their blindfolds are
removed and they see a waterfall before them, lit up by the rays of the
setting sun. They have come to Henneth Annûn, the Window of the Sunset,
fairest of all the falls of Ithilien.

[Sam and Frodo eat with Faramir]

The hobbits find themselves in a cave in a cliff behind the waterfall.
They rest for a while, and hear Faramir receive a report of skulking
creature that is obviously Gollum. Faramir seems to associate this
creature with the hobbits, but nothing more is said. Frodo falls fast
asleep, but Sam remains awake until they join Faramir for the evening
meal. After a ritual moment of silence, looking westwards, they begin a
meal that they enjoy greatly.

[Faramir talks about Numenoreans and Gondor]

After the meal, Faramir once again talks to the hobbits. The
conversation starts off with tales of the Fellowship's journey,
including tales of Boromir that move Faramir, but soon moves back to the
history of Gondor and the Numenorean realms. Faramir speaks at great
length about the decline of the Numenoreans, their mingling with lesser
men of the mountains and of the North. He talks of the origins of Rohan
and the friendship between Gondor and the Rohirrim. He also speaks of
Men:

"For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the
West, which were Numenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the
Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in
the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness."

Faramir's verdict on the Gondorian Numenoreans:

"We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other
things."

[Sam is indiscreet about the Ring]

Sam is impressed by Faramir's lore, and asks him if he knows anything
about Elves. This provokes another lament from Faramir:

"But in Middle-earth Men and Elves became estranged in the days of
darkness, by the arts of the Enemy, and by the slow changes of time in
which each kind walked further down their sundered roads."

[6]

The conversation turn to Lorien, and Sam, whose tongue has probably been
loosened by the food and drink, eagerly attempts a description of
Galadriel. Faramir observes that she must be lovely, but perilously
fair. Sam agrees, and starts to describe Boromir and the peril of
Lorien, but stops. Faramir prompts him to continue, and Sam, heedless of
the danger, says that he believes:

"...that in Lórien [Boromir] first saw clearly what I guessed sooner:
what he wanted. From the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy's
Ring!"

Frodo, who had not been paying attention, is startled and aghast by
Sam's indiscretion. Sam has revealed the nature of Isildur's Bane to
Faramir, who says:

"So that is the answer to all the riddles! The One Ring that was thought
to have perished from the world. [...] here in the wild I have you: two
halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty
stroke of fortune! A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his
quality! Ha!"

[Faramir rejects the Ring]

Faramir stands up, briefly appearing threatening, but then sits down and
laughs. The moment of peril has passed and Faramir reflects that the
trial was too much for Boromir, and then explains that he spoke truly
earlier, that he does not desire the Ring or that he is "wise enough to
know that there are some perils from which a man must flee." Faramir
then goes on to express his admiration for Frodo and Sam. Faramir then
says that he must think about how to help them, and asks one final
question: what do they intend to do with the Ring? Frodo, following the
intensity of the brief danger, is overcome with weariness and resists no
longer, placing full trust in Faramir:

"'I was going to find a way into Mordor,' he said faintly. 'I was going
to Gorgoroth. I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into
the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get
there.'"

[7-8]

[Frodo falls asleep]

Faramir looks at Frodo in "grave astonishment", and then catches him as
he swoons. Frodo is laid in bed and immediately falls into another deep
sleep. Sam bows low to Faramir and praises him for taking the chance and
showing his quality: "the very highest". Faramir returns the compliment,
saying that: "the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards."
After a few more eloquent compliments, they bid each other good night.

[9]

Comments and thoughts
=====================

A) Comments referenced to summary text

[1] Is this the first time that Sam and Frodo have seen so many Men all
together? The array of men around Frodo and Faramir is 200-300 strong.
This is the first time they have had so many others around them since
Lorien.

[2] Sam listening uninvited to this interrogation reminds me of his
sitting in on the Council of Elrond.

[3] This interruption by Sam, and his plain speech, is a classic Sam
moment.

[4] Boromir in the boat seems like a passage taken directly from myth
and legend. Can anyone think of an example?

[5] The cried aloud rhetorical questions from Faramir to his brother are
quite striking. Offset from the rest of the text, they have great drama
and have a great impact on those watching and reading.

[6] Sam asking after the Elves. Another 'Sam' moment!

[7] Compare Faramir's: "In the morning we must each go swiftly on the
ways appointed to us." to Galadriel's comments in Lothlorien: "In the
morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate
are flowing."

In both cases the person tested tells Frodo and Sam (and both are
present in the two tableaux) that they must leave in the morning, and
that after this brief meeting, they must continue on their 'appointed'
or 'fated' paths.

[8] Also compare the description of Faramir's reaction to the Ring and
subsequent rejection: "A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show
his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and stern, his grey eyes
glinting. [...] But Faramir sat down again in his chair and began to
laugh quietly, and then suddenly became grave again." to Galadriel's:
"She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and
beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her
hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo!
she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose
gentle voice was soft and sad."

In both cases the person tested appears or is tall, a threatening
appearance is seen, and then they laugh and return to normal. There are
differences, but these stem rather from the nature of Faramir as a man,
and Galadriel as an elf.

[9] Frodo's reaction is moving for both us and Faramir, and we are
impressed by Faramir's reaction to Frodo's weariness.

B) General comments

We learn much about Faramir in this chapter (and the next). What is
people's reaction to this character, the brother of Boromir? "...unlike
they were, and yet also much akin".

Note that Faramir, like his brother, has an archiac style of speech that
uses words like 'durst' and 'tis' and 'aught' and 'oft' and 'ere'.

Faramir says that maybe the journey of Boromir was 'doomed'. This use of
'doom' seems to mean 'fate'. What do you think?

We see much interaction between Frodo and Faramir and Sam and Faramir,
and this allows us to get to know the characters even better. The whole
chapter is dominated by the words of Faramir and his conversations with
Frodo and Sam.

This chapter has a heavy emphasis on the Ring and the Numenoreans.
Through the words of Faramir, we hear more of the history and lore of
the Numenoreans. We also learn more of the Ring and the effect it has on
Faramir, and probably had on Boromir.

Quite a lot of proverbs in this chapter: "Night oft brings news to near
kindred"; "murder will out"; "near, but not in the gold"; "fair speech
may hide a foul heart"; "if you are short of sleep, cold water on the
neck is like rain on a wilted lettuce"; "whenever you open your big
mouth you put your foot in it"; handsome is as handsome does"; "the
praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards".

Frodo and Sam are afraid that the rest of the Fellowship are dead. This
must have had quite an impact on them, even though Faramir tries to
reassure them, and might have preyed on their minds in the days to
follow. Do we see any evidence of this in their actions and speech in
the days that follow?

Finally, I have picked out many of my favourite quotes from this chapter
(including the one at the very end of the post), but I have had to leave
out many wonderful bits of speech, especially those of Faramir. Please
talk about anything else in this chapter that you like or find
interesting!

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

"...in front a thin veil of water was hung, so near that Frodo could
have put an outstretched arm into it. It faced westward. The level
shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was
broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if
they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded
jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled
with an unconsuming fire." (The Window of the Sunset - Henneth Annûn -
'The Window on the West')

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user304

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Since: Oct 21, 2003
Posts: 212



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:13 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
 >
 > Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
 > Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West
 >
[snip]
 >
 > [4] Boromir in the boat seems like a passage taken directly from myth
 > and legend. Can anyone think of an example?
 >
For me it has more of an Arthurian feel than much of Tolkien's work:
I must be thinking of the barge carrying the mortally wounded king to
sleep in Avalon. I'm also reminded of Tennyson's "Lady of Shalott":

"Lying, robed in snowy white
That loosely flew to left and right--
The leaves upon her falling light--
Thro' the noises of the night
She floated down to Camelot ..."

--
Odysseus<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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rdwillia

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:36 pm
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In article <4174BEA5.313FE2F6.TakeThisOut@yahoo-dot.ca>,
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at.TakeThisOut@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
 >Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
  >>
  >> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
  >> Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West
  >>
 >[snip]
  >>
  >> [4] Boromir in the boat seems like a passage taken directly from myth
  >> and legend. Can anyone think of an example?
  >>
 >For me it has more of an Arthurian feel than much of Tolkien's work:
 >I must be thinking of the barge carrying the mortally wounded king to
 >sleep in Avalon. I'm also reminded of Tennyson's "Lady of Shalott":

And in Malory:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=25794118" target="_blank">http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=25794118</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=25993057" target="_blank">http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=25993057</a>

(not much like Faramir's vision, but presumably Tolkien knew these
versions).

Richard.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rdwillia

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Posts: 53



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:11 pm
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In article <7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
 >Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
 >Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West

 >Faramir recognised this warrior, pierced with many wounds, as Boromir,
 >his brother. He cried out after him, but the boat passed on into the
 >night. Frodo recognises the golden belt of Lorien that Faramir described
 >on Boromir's body, and says that the boat is also from Lorien.

I wonder if the Sutton Hoo ship burial (excavated in 1939) might have been
a minor influence here? One of the most impressive artefacts from this
site is a magnificent gold belt buckle (now in the British Museum):

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ3924" target="_blank">http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ3924</a>

Richard.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1337

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:51 pm
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
 >
 > Comments and thoughts
 > =====================
 >
 > A) Comments referenced to summary text
 >
 > [1] Is this the first time that Sam and Frodo have seen so many
 > Men all together? The array of men around Frodo and Faramir is
 > 200-300 strong. This is the first time they have had so many
 > others around them since Lorien.

Apart from the Black Gate. The main congregation points on their
journey thus far would have been:

1. Bree (village, mixture of little and big folk)
2. Rivendell (Elves)
3. Moria (Orcs and whatnot)
4. Lothlorien (Elves)
5. Black Gate (Men, maybe Orcs).


 > [7] Compare Faramir's: "In the morning we must each go swiftly on
 > the ways appointed to us." to Galadriel's comments in Lothlorien:
 > "In the morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the
 > tides of fate are flowing."
 >
 > In both cases the person tested tells Frodo and Sam (and both are
 > present in the two tableaux) that they must leave in the morning,
 > and that after this brief meeting, they must continue on their
 > 'appointed' or 'fated' paths.

Doesn't seem unusual; people normally set off on journeys after a
good night's sleep.


 > [8] Also compare the description of Faramir's reaction to the Ring
 > and subsequent rejection: "A chance for Faramir, Captain of
 > Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and
 > stern, his grey eyes glinting. [...] But Faramir sat down again in
 > his chair and began to laugh quietly, and then suddenly became
 > grave again." to Galadriel's: "She stood before Frodo seeming now
 > tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible
 > and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded,
 > and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a
 > slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was
 > soft and sad."
 >
 > In both cases the person tested appears or is tall, a threatening
 > appearance is seen, and then they laugh and return to normal.
 > There are differences, but these stem rather from the nature of
 > Faramir as a man, and Galadriel as an elf.

Might want to include Gandalf upon Bilbo's denial of him at the start
of FotR, and Frodo's domineering of Gollum. Might have something to
do with the appearance of command, as enhanced by the proximity of
the One.


 > [9] Frodo's reaction is moving for both us and Faramir, and we are
 > impressed by Faramir's reaction to Frodo's weariness.
 >
 > B) General comments
 >
 > We learn much about Faramir in this chapter (and the next). What
 > is people's reaction to this character, the brother of Boromir?
 > "...unlike they were, and yet also much akin".

Until Sean Bean's portrayal in the film, I failed to see the
resemblance between the two.


 > Note that Faramir, like his brother, has an archiac style of
 > speech that uses words like 'durst' and 'tis' and 'aught' and
 > 'oft' and 'ere'.

I wonder how much of that survives in t'broad acres?


--
Cheers, ymt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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john25

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:07 pm
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
 > Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
 > Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West
 >
 > Quite a lot of proverbs in this chapter: "Night oft brings news to near
 > kindred"; "murder will out"; "near, but not in the gold";

This last is not so much a proverb as a reference to archery. Faramir says,
"Do I not hit near the mark?"
"Near", said Frodo, "but not in the gold."

During the Middle Ages, men shot at 'the mark', which was a piece of cloth
or card pinned to a bank (hence the expression 'wide of the mark' and so
on). 'The gold' is the centre of the modern archery target (nowadays yellow
for easier printing!) which was devised by the Prince of Wales, son of King
George III. Tolkien said that he would have liked to be able to shoot with
the bow; I wonder how much he knew of the subject?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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spamgard

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:13 pm
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
 > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
 > news:7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
  >>
  >> Comments and thoughts
  >> =====================
  >>
  >> A) Comments referenced to summary text

<snip>

  >> [7] Compare Faramir's: "In the morning we must each go swiftly on
  >> the ways appointed to us." to Galadriel's comments in Lothlorien:
  >> "In the morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the
  >> tides of fate are flowing."
  >>
  >> In both cases the person tested tells Frodo and Sam (and both are
  >> present in the two tableaux) that they must leave in the morning,
  >> and that after this brief meeting, they must continue on their
  >> 'appointed' or 'fated' paths.
 >
 > Doesn't seem unusual; people normally set off on journeys after a
 > good night's sleep.

Really? I see it more as a "getting rid of temptation" thing ( or at
least a recognition that the crucial moment has passed, so there is no
point in hanging around any more, either in Lorien or in Ithilien.

Remember that Faramir says (just before he says they must go their
separate ways in the morning):

"I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I know
(which is enough), lest peril perchance waylay me and I fall lower in
the test than Frodo son of Drogo."

Is it possible that Faramir wants to avoid succumbing to the Ring? He
also says, elsewhere in this chapter:

"I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man
must flee."

Which would explain why, even having learnt of the importance of the
quest that Frodo is undertaking, that he does not give them more help,
such as going with them. That and his short-term obligations to Gondor.

  >> [8] Also compare the description of Faramir's reaction to the Ring
  >> and subsequent rejection: "A chance for Faramir, Captain of
  >> Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and
  >> stern, his grey eyes glinting. [...] But Faramir sat down again in
  >> his chair and began to laugh quietly, and then suddenly became
  >> grave again." to Galadriel's: "She stood before Frodo seeming now
  >> tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible
  >> and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded,
  >> and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a
  >> slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was
  >> soft and sad."
  >>
  >> In both cases the person tested appears or is tall, a threatening
  >> appearance is seen, and then they laugh and return to normal.
  >> There are differences, but these stem rather from the nature of
  >> Faramir as a man, and Galadriel as an elf.
 >
 > Might want to include Gandalf upon Bilbo's denial of him at the start
 > of FotR, and Frodo's domineering of Gollum. Might have something to
 > do with the appearance of command, as enhanced by the proximity of
 > the One.

The bit missing from those is the laugh. I do agree that Gandalf and
Frodo seem to grow in size, but this is something different from these
"threat and then rejection" scenes.

Returning to the "growing in size" bit, maybe we can even include the
"Strider stood up and appeared taller" bit from Bree? Smile

  >> B) General comments

<snip>

  >> Note that Faramir, like his brother, has an archiac style of
  >> speech that uses words like 'durst' and 'tis' and 'aught' and
  >> 'oft' and 'ere'.
 >
 > I wonder how much of that survives in t'broad acres?

Which area of England are you talking about?

Faramir's archaisms, like Boromir's and Denethor's, is most likely
designed to distinguish the Numenoreans from the rustic hobbits of the
Shire.

Christopher

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Posts: 238



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:lHddd.11567$xb.8834@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
 > Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
  >> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
  >> news:7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
   >>>
   >>> Comments and thoughts
   >>> =====================
   >>>
   >>> A) Comments referenced to summary text
 >
 > <snip>
 >
   >>> [7] Compare Faramir's: "In the morning we must each go swiftly
   >>> on the ways appointed to us." to Galadriel's comments in
   >>> Lothlorien: "In the morning you must depart for now we have
   >>> chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing."
   >>>
   >>> In both cases the person tested tells Frodo and Sam (and both
   >>> are present in the two tableaux) that they must leave in the
   >>> morning, and that after this brief meeting, they must continue
   >>> on their 'appointed' or 'fated' paths.
  >>
  >> Doesn't seem unusual; people normally set off on journeys after a
  >> good night's sleep.
 >
 > Really? I see it more as a "getting rid of temptation" thing ( or
 > at least a recognition that the crucial moment has passed, so
 > there is no point in hanging around any more, either in Lorien or
 > in Ithilien.
 >
 > Remember that Faramir says (just before he says they must go their
 > separate ways in the morning):
 >
 > "I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I
 > know (which is enough), lest peril perchance waylay me and I fall
 > lower in the test than Frodo son of Drogo."
 >
 > Is it possible that Faramir wants to avoid succumbing to the Ring?
 > He also says, elsewhere in this chapter:
 >
 > "I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a
 > man must flee."
 >
 > Which would explain why, even having learnt of the importance of
 > the quest that Frodo is undertaking, that he does not give them
 > more help, such as going with them. That and his short-term
 > obligations to Gondor.

Fair enough. I missed the 'fated'/'appointed' in the original
passage.


   >>> [8] Also compare the description of Faramir's reaction to the
   >>> Ring and subsequent rejection: "A chance for Faramir, Captain of
   >>> Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and
   >>> stern, his grey eyes glinting. [...] But Faramir sat down again
   >>> in his chair and began to laugh quietly, and then suddenly
   >>> became grave again." to Galadriel's: "She stood before Frodo
   >>> seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond
   >>> enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall,
   >>> and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she
   >>> was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose
   >>> gentle voice was soft and sad."
   >>>
   >>> In both cases the person tested appears or is tall, a
   >>> threatening appearance is seen, and then they laugh and return
   >>> to normal. There are differences, but these stem rather from the
   >>> nature of Faramir as a man, and Galadriel as an elf.
  >>
  >> Might want to include Gandalf upon Bilbo's denial of him at the
  >> start of FotR, and Frodo's domineering of Gollum. Might have
  >> something to do with the appearance of command, as enhanced by
  >> the proximity of the One.
 >
 > The bit missing from those is the laugh. I do agree that Gandalf
 > and Frodo seem to grow in size, but this is something different
 > from these "threat and then rejection" scenes.
 >
 > Returning to the "growing in size" bit, maybe we can even include
 > the "Strider stood up and appeared taller" bit from Bree? Smile

As pointed out a couple of years back, anyone would appear taller if
they stood up. But apart from that, it's a standard thang to
emphasise perceived threat by increasing the perceived size. Just
watch two cats fighting.


   >>> B) General comments
 >
 > <snip>
 >
   >>> Note that Faramir, like his brother, has an archiac style of
   >>> speech that uses words like 'durst' and 'tis' and 'aught' and
   >>> 'oft' and 'ere'.
  >>
  >> I wonder how much of that survives in t'broad acres?
 >
 > Which area of England are you talking about?

The People's Republic of Yorkshire. Just listen to Fred Trueman or
Geoff Boycott (or Ray Illingworth, Brian Close or any of that ilk)
and you'll hear 'tha', 'thi' and such used in ordinary dia(mono?)
logue.


 > Faramir's archaisms, like Boromir's and Denethor's, is most likely
 > designed to distinguish the Numenoreans from the rustic hobbits of
 > the Shire.

Echoes of the King James, which is probably the most baneful
influence on fantasy fic (along with the Fellowship) I know of.


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spamgard

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:46 pm
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
 > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

  >> Faramir's archaisms, like Boromir's and Denethor's, is most likely
  >> designed to distinguish the Numenoreans from the rustic hobbits of
  >> the Shire.
 >
 > Echoes of the King James, which is probably the most baneful
 > influence on fantasy fic (along with the Fellowship) I know of.

Are you saying that the King James Bible also tries this little trick?
Which peoples are distinguished this way? And how does the King James
Bible have a baneful influence on fantasy? And by Fellowship, do you
mean FotR? And do you mean that the King James Bible influenced FotR? Or
do you mean that FotR had a baneful influence on fantasy?

<deep breath> I think I've run out of questions! Smile

Christopher

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Posts: 238



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:eaedd.11598$xb.3169@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
 > Yuk Tang <jim.laker2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
  >> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
 >
   >>> Faramir's archaisms, like Boromir's and Denethor's, is most
   >>> likely designed to distinguish the Numenoreans from the rustic
   >>> hobbits of the Shire.
  >>
  >> Echoes of the King James, which is probably the most baneful
  >> influence on fantasy fic (along with the Fellowship) I know of.
 >
 > Are you saying that the King James Bible also tries this little
 > trick? Which peoples are distinguished this way? And how does the
 > King James Bible have a baneful influence on fantasy? And by
 > Fellowship, do you mean FotR? And do you mean that the King James
 > Bible influenced FotR? Or do you mean that FotR had a baneful
 > influence on fantasy?

The King James Bible, via LotR, has made what were supposed to be the
second person informal seem formal. Outside the Yorkshire brigade
(and I've heard other members of said Republic use them) who uses
'thee' and 'thou' correctly? And even when they're grammatically
correct, their usage is still wrong.

FotR has made the band of misfits (different races, different types)
standard.


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spamgard

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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk4 Ch5 The Window on the West [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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John Jones <john DeleteThis @jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
 > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
 >
  >> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
  >> Book 4, Chapter 5: The Window on the West
  >>
  >> Quite a lot of proverbs in this chapter: "Night oft brings news to
  >> near kindred"; "murder will out"; "near, but not in the gold";
 >
 > This last is not so much a proverb as a reference to archery.
 > Faramir says, "Do I not hit near the mark?"
 > "Near", said Frodo, "but not in the gold."

Thanks for that. I had assumed it was a reference to gold as a precious
metal (like hitting the jackpot) but didn't stop to think about it in
any detail. As you say, the "near the mark" bit gives it away.

<snip explanation>

 > Tolkien said that he would have liked to be able to shoot with the
 > bow; I wonder how much he knew of the subject?

Would be nice to know. Presumably he didn't get the chance to go to
evening archery classes, or anything! He did use archery in his stories
though: Bard the Bowman, Beleg Strongbow, Legolas and his bow, the
description of the bow of Lothlorien that Galadriel gave to Legolas, the
Rangers of Ithilien have longbows, he talks of mounted bowmen when
describing miltary tactics, and using bowmen to assail the mumaks, he
also describes bows of wood and bows of horn, the hobbits of the Shire
have hunting bows, there is the Red Arrow used to summon aid from Rohan,
the Black Arrow used by Bard to slay Smaug, and Beleg's bow gets a name:
Belthronding.

Christopher

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pogues1

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Posts: 56



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:27 am
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> creatively typed:
 > Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
  > > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

   > > > A) Comments referenced to summary text
 > <snip>
 >
   > > > [7] Compare Faramir's: "In the morning we must each go
   > > > swiftly on the ways appointed to us." to Galadriel's
   > > > comments in Lothlorien: "In the morning you must depart for
   > > > now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing."

<snip>
  > > Doesn't seem unusual; people normally set off on journeys
  > > after a good night's sleep.
 >
 > Really? I see it more as a "getting rid of temptation" thing (
 > or at least a recognition that the crucial moment has passed, so
 > there is no point in hanging around any more, either in Lorien
 > or in Ithilien.

In terms of the tension in the story arc, I think you're dead on
here, that's exactly what's going on. Once you've resolved a moment
of tension, you've got to get the story moving again.

 > Remember that Faramir says (just before he says they must go
 > their separate ways in the morning):
 > "I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I
 > know (which is enough), lest peril perchance waylay me and I
 > fall lower in the test than Frodo son of Drogo."

Definitely avoiding temptation. He knows enough as a scholar to be
wise; but mostly, I think, it is his heart that's wise here. And
maybe he feels a little pride as well: he can't let a halfling be
more noble than a descendant of Numenoreans! <g>

<snip>
 > The bit missing from those is the laugh. I do agree that Gandalf
 > and Frodo seem to grow in size, but this is something different
 > from these "threat and then rejection" scenes.
 > Returning to the "growing in size" bit, maybe we can even
 > include the "Strider stood up and appeared taller" bit from
 > Bree? Smile

One thing strikes me here: each of these three moments is followed
by a moment of pain, confessed by the character. Strider
acknowledges "with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to
me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust.'"
Galadriel laughs and then "was shrunken, a slender elf-woman, clad
in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. 'I pass the
test,' she said, 'I will diminish, and pass into the West...'"
After his laugh, Faramir says "Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a
trial! ... How you have increased my sorrow, you two strange
wanderers from a far country, bearing the peril of Men!"

So the sequence is threat, rejection of temptation, laugh,
acknowledgement of sorrow. The laugh may be a brief moment of joy
following the rejection of evil; the sorrow, a sigh for all that is
lost.

   > > > B) General comments
 > <snip>
 >
   > > > Note that Faramir, like his brother, has an archiac style of
   > > > speech that uses words like 'durst' and 'tis' and 'aught' and
   > > > 'oft' and 'ere'.

He also uses the old name for Lothlorien (Laurelindorinan), which
we only hear from Treebeard, otherwise. While Boromir's speech also
tends towards the old-fashioned -- he tends to use inverted
constructions -- I believe these archaisms of Faramir's are meant
to show his learning. He has spent many hours in the archives of
Minas Tirith with Gandalf! It also, perhaps, links him to the
Elves more strongly.

Ciaran S.
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:55 am
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Christopher Kreuzer (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
message <7S_cd.11219$xb.11146@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

 > they see a waterfall before them, lit up by the rays of the
 > setting sun. They have come to Henneth Annûn, the Window of the Sunset,
 > fairest of all the falls of Ithilien.
 >
 > [Sam and Frodo eat with Faramir]
 >
 > The hobbits find themselves in a cave in a cliff behind the waterfall.

An actual example of such a waterfall, where you can walk behind the cascade
of water (not much of a cave though) can be found at Pont Nedd Fechan in
the Neath valley in South Wales. Well worth a visit for anybody interested
in what Henneth Annûn looked like.
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes

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(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:55 am
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Prai Jei <pvstownsend RemoveThis @zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
 > An actual example of such a waterfall, where you can walk behind the
 > cascade of water (not much of a cave though) can be found at Pont
 > Nedd Fechan in the Neath valley in South Wales. Well worth a visit
 > for anybody interested in what Henneth Annûn looked like.

You did ask to be reminded about this...
I knew I'd forgotten _something_ !!

I have another example of going behind a waterfall, though I am afraid
it is from the Enid Blyton books, where I believe a groups of children
had an adventure in Wales, or maybe not...

Does anyone know whether caves, or at least ledges, behind waterfalls
are that common? I would have thought they would be, but can't say for
sure.

Christopher

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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:55 am
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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> creatively typed:
 > Prai Jei <pvstownsend DeleteThis @zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
  > > An actual example of such a waterfall, where you can walk
  > > behind the cascade of water (not much of a cave though) can be
  > > found at Pont Nedd Fechan in the Neath valley in South Wales.
  > > Well worth a visit for anybody interested in what Henneth
  > > Annûn looked like.
 >
 > You did ask to be reminded about this...
 > I knew I'd forgotten _something_ !!
 > I have another example of going behind a waterfall, though I am
 > afraid it is from the Enid Blyton books, where I believe a
 > groups of children had an adventure in Wales, or maybe not...
 > Does anyone know whether caves, or at least ledges, behind
 > waterfalls are that common? I would have thought they would be,
 > but can't say for sure.

There are many of them in the Finger Lakes region of upstate New
York. Watkins Glen has a couple, and there are many small ones in
the little ravines that cut through the hills that separate the
long lakes. Swimming in these little waterfall pools is absolutely
wonderful (although I keep being tempted to mutter "rocks and pool
/ so wet and cool / so nice for feet").

Ciaran S.
--
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