Characterizations of heroes and villains

The Black Guardian wrote:
 > barn....RemoveThis@shentel.net wrote:
  > > Does it seem to anyone else like there's almosty a war going­ on
  > > with Marvel writers. Between writers who prefer to show good
  > > guy­s as good, and bad guys as having shades of grey. And those
  > > who prefer­ the good guys to have shades of grey and the bad
  > > guys to just be mons­ters
 >
 > War? No. Not really. Practically all writers, these days, write their
 > characters with some shades of grey.

It feels to me, like writers are constantly working to undo one
anothers work. In X-men, we've got Magneto as a real bastard, then in
Excalibur, it was revealed as an imposter.

In Fantastic Four Dr. Doom helped save the life of the Fantastic FOur's
second child. The ten or twelve issues later it was revealed as a plot
to kill them.

The second a book or character switches writers the previous
interaction and characterization between the heroes and the villains is
thrown out.

JLB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

I don't know--I feel that writers have been going back and forth on villains
for quite a long time; it isn't a recent development. If you wanted to
really look into it, you'd probably find writers inconsistent, as well. The
same writer who writes Doctor Doom as the living embodiment of evil might go
to work on another title and have the Red Skull volunteering in a soup
kitchen. Well, probably not that, but you get my point. I don't know that
there are any real opposing ideologies at work here as much as different
writers simply having different takes on certain characters. And from the
standpoint of the continuum of appearances starting at the very earliest and
encompassing everything through the current day, you will be likely to find
ample justification for either interpretation of any given villain: pure
evil or shades of gray.

Magneto in particular is a good example of a character who has been in flux
almost since his inception. I think these things probably tend to work in
cycles, but that the length of the cycle varies from character to character,
occasionally aligning with other cycles so that you see a lot of villains
exhibiting some redeemable characteristics at once. I'd say that most
contemporary writers are pretty much writing villains as very flawed
specimens of human-kind rather than as iconic "bwa-ha-ha" holy terrors.

For my part, I enjoy shades of gray on both the superhero and supervillain
sides of the aisle.

Regards,
Justin
http://www.uatu.net


<barnett RemoveThis @shentel.net> wrote in message
news:1107100923.640661.126250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

It feels to me, like writers are constantly working to undo one
anothers work. In X-men, we've got Magneto as a real bastard, then in
Excalibur, it was revealed as an imposter.
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"Justin Garrett Blum" <uatuthewatcher.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10vqp1ikeqj53aa@corp.supernews.com...
 > I don't know--I feel that writers have been going back and forth on
villains
 > for quite a long time; it isn't a recent development. If you wanted to
 > really look into it, you'd probably find writers inconsistent, as well.
The
 > same writer who writes Doctor Doom as the living embodiment of evil might
go
 > to work on another title and have the Red Skull volunteering in a soup
 > kitchen. Well, probably not that, but you get my point. I don't know that
 > there are any real opposing ideologies at work here as much as different
 > writers simply having different takes on certain characters. And from the
 > standpoint of the continuum of appearances starting at the very earliest
and
 > encompassing everything through the current day, you will be likely to
find
 > ample justification for either interpretation of any given villain: pure
 > evil or shades of gray.
 >
 > Magneto in particular is a good example of a character who has been in
flux
 > almost since his inception. I think these things probably tend to work in
 > cycles, but that the length of the cycle varies from character to
character,
 > occasionally aligning with other cycles so that you see a lot of villains
 > exhibiting some redeemable characteristics at once. I'd say that most
 > contemporary writers are pretty much writing villains as very flawed
 > specimens of human-kind rather than as iconic "bwa-ha-ha" holy terrors.
 >
 > For my part, I enjoy shades of gray on both the superhero and supervillain
 > sides of the aisle.
 >
 > Regards,
 > Justin
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.uatu.net</font" target="_blank">http://www.uatu.net</font</a>>
 >
 >
 > <barnett.RemoveThis@shentel.net> wrote in message
 > news:1107100923.640661.126250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
 >
 > It feels to me, like writers are constantly working to undo one
 > anothers work. In X-men, we've got Magneto as a real bastard, then in
 > Excalibur, it was revealed as an imposter.

Say it with me:

"Everything you knew before is a lie."

-- Ken from Chicago<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

 >From: barnett.RemoveThis@shentel.net

 >In Fantastic Four Dr. Doom helped save the life of the Fantastic FOur's
 >second child. The ten or twelve issues later it was revealed as a plot
 >to kill them.

--Though your first example supports the theory under discussion, this one
really doesn't. Doom wasn't acting out of character in the "ten or twelve
issues later..." that you refer to.
He agreed to save Sue's child b/c in his eyes, it put Reed in a position of
knowing that he {Doom} was able to do something that he {Reed} was unable to.
Remember that Doom's always trying to prove his superiority to Reed.
In that story he agrees to let no harm befall Valeria. However, when next he
appears, he uses her to get at her parents. True to his word, he doesn't harm
her, but puts a world of hurt on the FF.

Tony<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
 >
 > "Justin Garrett Blum" <uatuthewatcher.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:10vqp1ikeqj53aa@corp.supernews.com...
  > > I don't know--I feel that writers have been going back and forth on
 > villains
  > > for quite a long time; it isn't a recent development. If you wanted to
  > > really look into it, you'd probably find writers inconsistent, as well.
 > The
  > > same writer who writes Doctor Doom as the living embodiment of evil
might
 > go
  > > to work on another title and have the Red Skull volunteering in a soup
  > > kitchen. Well, probably not that, but you get my point. I don't know
that
  > > there are any real opposing ideologies at work here as much as different
  > > writers simply having different takes on certain characters. And from
the
  > > standpoint of the continuum of appearances starting at the very earliest
 > and
  > > encompassing everything through the current day, you will be likely to
 > find
  > > ample justification for either interpretation of any given villain: pure
  > > evil or shades of gray.
  > >
  > > Magneto in particular is a good example of a character who has been in
 > flux
  > > almost since his inception. I think these things probably tend to work
in
  > > cycles, but that the length of the cycle varies from character to
 > character,
  > > occasionally aligning with other cycles so that you see a lot of
villains
  > > exhibiting some redeemable characteristics at once. I'd say that most
  > > contemporary writers are pretty much writing villains as very flawed
  > > specimens of human-kind rather than as iconic "bwa-ha-ha" holy terrors.
  > >
  > > For my part, I enjoy shades of gray on both the superhero and
supervillain
  > > sides of the aisle.
  > >
  > > Regards,
  > > Justin
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.uatu.net</font" target="_blank">http://www.uatu.net</font</a>>
  > >
  > >
  > > <barnett.RemoveThis@shentel.net> wrote in message
  > > news:1107100923.640661.126250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
  > >
  > > It feels to me, like writers are constantly working to undo one
  > > anothers work. In X-men, we've got Magneto as a real bastard, then in
  > > Excalibur, it was revealed as an imposter.
 >
 > Say it with me:
 >
 > "Everything you knew before is a lie."

No.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

The Babaloughesian wrote:
 > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
 > news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
  > > Say it with me:
  > >
  > > "Everything you knew before is a lie."
 >
 > No.

Either say it and believe it, or find a new hobby. This is basically
the rock on which most serial fiction rests.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"The Black Guardian" <blakgard.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107213581.782508.299920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The Babaloughesian wrote:
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
> > > Say it with me:
> > >
> > > "Everything you knew before is a lie."
> >
> > No.
>
> Either say it and believe it, or find a new hobby. This is basically
> the rock on which most serial fiction rests.
>

Thank you. I was a teen in the 1980s when I realized that very phrase was
just an easy way for new writers to simply ignore previous continuity.

-- Ken from Chicago
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

The Babaloughesian wrote:
   >>>> Say it with me:
   >>>> "Everything you knew before is a lie."
   >>>
   >>> No.
  >>
  >> You can't handle the truth--that the new writer of the ser­ies will
now
  >> reveal.
 >
 > There is no truth, either before or after the creative team ­change.
There
 > are only stories. One isn't more or less true than another.­ You
only have
 > to subscribe to that sort of bizarre thinking if you cling t­o the
lie that a
 > series full of creative team changes really comprises one co­ntinuous
story.

Which is the same as "everything you knew before is a lie."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"The Black Guardian" <blakgard.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107213581.782508.299920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The Babaloughesian wrote:
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
> > > Say it with me:
> > >
> > > "Everything you knew before is a lie."
> >
> > No.
>
> Either say it and believe it, or find a new hobby.

False dichotomy.

> This is basically
> the rock on which most serial fiction rests.

Which serial fiction doesn't rest on it?
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"The Babaloughesian" <babaloughesian.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:36ag1qF4rnuleU1@individual.net...
>
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:S9adnR71qfBoi2PcRVn-pA@comcast.com...
> >
> > "The Babaloughesian" <babaloughesian.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:365qt3F4s42ndU1@individual.net...
> > >
> > > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...

<snip>

> > > > Say it with me:
> > > >
> > > > "Everything you knew before is a lie."
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You can't handle the truth--that the new writer of the series will now
> > reveal.
>
> There is no truth, either before or after the creative team change. There
> are only stories. One isn't more or less true than another. You only
have
> to subscribe to that sort of bizarre thinking if you cling to the lie that
a
> series full of creative team changes really comprises one continuous
story.
>
>

No, there is only One True Story. One True History, One True Continuity!

-- Ken from Chicago

P.S. Please ignore those people behind the curtain.
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"The Babaloughesian" <babaloughesian.RemoveThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:36af3iF4stdtbU1@individual.net...
>
> "The Black Guardian" <blakgard.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1107213581.782508.299920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > The Babaloughesian wrote:
> > > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Jd-dnWVf8uWm4mDcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
> > > > Say it with me:
> > > >
> > > > "Everything you knew before is a lie."
> > >
> > > No.
> >
> > Either say it and believe it, or find a new hobby.
>
> False dichotomy.
>
> > This is basically
> > the rock on which most serial fiction rests.
>
> Which serial fiction doesn't rest on it?
>
>

Serial fiction not afraid of permanent change--aka growth.

Serial fiction not afraid of CONSTRUCTIVE continuity, stories that BUILD on
what went before--as opposed to ignoring and / or contradicting it WITHOUT
explanation.

-- Ken from Chicago
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

"The Black Guardian" <blakgard.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1107303202.504913.46870@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> The Babaloughesian wrote:
> >>>> Say it with me:
> >>>> "Everything you knew before is a lie."
> >>>
> >>> No.
> >>
> >> You can't handle the truth--that the new writer of the series will
now
> >> reveal.
> >
> > There is no truth, either before or after the creative team change.
There
> > are only stories. One isn't more or less true than another. You
only have
> > to subscribe to that sort of bizarre thinking if you cling to the
lie that a
> > series full of creative team changes really comprises one continuous
story.

> Which is the same as "everything you knew before is a lie."

To paraphrase you, bullshit.
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains 

The Babaloughesian wrote:
 > "The Black Guardian" <blakgard RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 > news:1107303202.504913.46870@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
  >> The Babaloughesian wrote:
   >>>>>> Say it with me:
   >>>>>> "Everything you knew before is a lie."
   >>>>>
   >>>>> No.
   >>>>
   >>>> You can't handle the truth--that the new writer of the series will
   >>>> now reveal.
   >>>
   >>> There is no truth, either before or after the creative team change.
   >>> There are only stories. One isn't more or less true than another.
You
   >>> only have to subscribe to that sort of bizarre thinking if you
cling
   >>> to the lie that a series full of creative team changes really
   >>> comprises one continuous story.
  >>
  >> Which is the same as "everything you knew before is a lie."
 >
 > To paraphrase you, bullshit.

Ahem... to quote you:

"there is no truth..."

It is synonymous with:

"everything... is a lie"
The "you knew before" is actually meaningless in that construction.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Characterizations of heroes and villains