Child Morgan- Spoiler

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> That's something that has occurred to me before, Wes, that maybe prolonged
> exposure to Deryni gives 'normal humans' some sensitivity. I think there
> are some other cases that look like that in other books, IIRC. Although it
> still doesn't explain Warin.
>
> Since Deryni are interfertile with other humans, it seems more than likely
> to me that they are a mutation that emphasises an existing trait, rather
> than something completely new.

Actually, that is basically what I have always thought about the Deryni-
that they are a mutation of the general human population. And, as they have
developed concurrently with the non-Deryni human population, the idea that
at least some non-Deryni humans could possess a "pre-Deryni" capacity, for
lack of a better term, is perhaps not so far-fetched. And that capacity can
be activated or heightened, at least, by interaction on a psychic level with
Deryni. Actually, now that I give it some thought, that *could* explain the
Haldane potential- that the branch of the human population that became the
Haldanes is just one step closer to full Deryni capability than, say, the
Derrys or Warins or Kenneths. As for Warin, well, somewhere along the line,
the first humans who developed the Deryni abilities had to figure out they
had them and how to use them, so perhaps Warin is just one of the
"pre-Deryni" who was able to manifest his own ability. Or maybe he is just
descended from a blocked Deryni family and they just never realized they had
the ability.

-Mak
http://www.thirtytwopaws.com/mak
http://www.livejournal.com/users/2ndsoprano

http://www.chilicats.com


I have flying monkeys... and I am NOT afraid to use them!
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

In article <FTAmh.6515$NO5.2986@trndny01>, journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Mary
Alice Kropp) wrote:

> *From:* "Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> *Date:* Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT
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> And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those
> "primitive shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now
> there's something I did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this
> intimate that Kenneth has some Deryni blood somewhere in his
> background?

If we can trust the Codex (actually, we can't entirely - see below), he
does, through at least two and possibly three lines, all of his mother's
side of the family. Kenneth's mother Madonna was the daughter of Arnall
McLain, Earl of Kierney, who was descended in the male line from Angus
Lord McLain, who the Codex says was "the youngest son of Iain II, Earl
of Kierney". This, however, is a typo - as the article on Aislinn
Macrorie MacLean makes clear, Angus was her son and thus the brother of
Iain II and the son of Iain I. So that's one Deryni line of descent.

But, of course, Arnall McLain had inherited the Earldom of Kierney not
through the male line but from his mother, Glorian MacInnis,
great-granddaughter of Richeldis MacLean - so that establishes another
Deryni line of descent.

Thirdly, and more speculatively, Arnall married Adelicia Heiress of
Cassan. Assuming (as I believe the Codex does not state) that Adelicia
was Madonna McLain Morgan's mother, then there's a third line of
descent. For Adelicia's grandfather was Tammaron Duke of Cassan whose
mother was Tiphane Lady Ainslie, daughter of Robert Ainslie and a
certain Rhysel Thuryn.

So, unlike Denis Arilan, Alaric Morgan was probably descended from
Evaine - via the "human" side of his ancestry. Of course, he was also
descended from Manfred MacInnis and Tammaron, and Denis almost certainly
wasn't.

> Or is he one of those odd, unexplainable (as yet)
> humans, like Derry and Warin? And, of course, it begs the question:
> Did Jamyl tell the Council? And/or Denis? Hmmmmm.....
>


Peter Wilkinson
pwilkinson DeleteThis @cix.co.uk
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

> Does Kenneth tell Brion about Jamyl Arilan being Deryni, if so this
> would mean that Brion knew that other Arilan guy was Deryni also.

"That other Arilan guy"??? I think we are going to need to call a meeting
of the DAFC to deal with this wanton disrespect!

> Which might beg the question of did the King have something to do with
> Dennis gettting through the ordination.

And that is an interesting question, also. I hadn't considered whether
Kenneth might tell Brion about Jamyl. Tho Jamyl DOES ask Kenneth not to
give him away and I can see Kenneth honoring that request.

-Mak
http://www.thirtytwopaws.com/mak
http://www.livejournal.com/users/2ndsoprano

http://www.chilicats.com


I have flying monkeys... and I am NOT afraid to use them!
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

> Well jeez, what didja expect--the Childe LORIS trilogy???? =o)

Is that up next?

> Me, I can't help feel that THIS should have been the first book in the
> trilogy. And it's still really more about Alaric's parents and Donal
> Haldane than it is about Alaric himself. KK's going to have a LOT of
> his life to cover in book three.

You have a point, Melissa. If this was supposed to be the Childe Morgan
trilogy, it would make sense for this to be the first book. Perhaps ITKS
should have been a stand alone story?

> CM's a better book than ITKS, yes. More cohesive. But I think it
> should have covered more of Alaric's childhood. And I still feel a
> certain degree of emotional disengagement on KK's part that I did not
> sense with her earlier books.

Yeah, Alaric is four at the end of this one, right? So he has a lot of
childhood left in him to cover in one book. And if she does jump ahead in
time to bring the next one closer to the Marluk thing and all that, then she
will have skipped a lot of that childhood. And that kind of misses the
point of Childe Morgan, doesn't it?

I know what you mean about the "emotional disengagement," tho you put a
label on it that I couldn't come up with. It just doesn't seem to have the
impact that the others have had. I'm having a hard time engaging any of the
characters as much as in the earlier books. Is she getting tired of the
Deryni? It's possible, I suppose- it's been a long time.

-Mak
http://www.thirtytwopaws.com/mak
http://www.livejournal.com/users/2ndsoprano

http://www.chilicats.com


I have flying monkeys... and I am NOT afraid to use them!
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

> Say, MAK, I thought that they thought of the genealogy bit for Warin
> (or, perhaps, it was just speculation here), but pretty-much
> determined that they could find nothing like that in his ancestry.
> (but it surely would explain his anomalous behavior...)
>
> I think that Katherine is in the midst of telling us something (I just
> don't know what, yet)
>

Well, what I am postulating would not necessarily show up in his ancestry.
Unless he IS descended from a blocked Deryni- and there is no way (as far as
we have been let to know) right now, how many or from what families the
blocking occurred. Tho I would suspect it would not be too widespread,
given the ferocity of the persecution and the need for whatever Deryni
managed to hide out to remain in strict secrecy. Add that to the small
number who had the knowledge to do the blocking, and while I can see where
they might want to block as many as they could, it would be a minority at
best. I think perhaps the alternate view- that Warin is a "pre-Deryni" in
the evolutionary scale may be viable. And that he found some way
(necessity, perhaps?) to activate the latent talent on his own? I can agree
with you, tho- perhaps there is something yet to come, that KK has just not
gotten around to revealing...


-Mak
http://www.thirtytwopaws.com/mak
http://www.livejournal.com/users/2ndsoprano

http://www.chilicats.com


I have flying monkeys... and I am NOT afraid to use them!
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

On Jan 4, 3:57 am, "Colin Zealley"
<colin.zeal....RemoveThis@removethisbit.unisys.com> wrote:
> "Mary Alice Kropp" <journey....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:4ZVmh.727$Lh.683@trndny09...
>
>
> > And that is an interesting question, also. I hadn't considered whether
> > Kenneth might tell Brion about Jamyl. Tho Jamyl DOES ask Kenneth not to
> > give him away and I can see Kenneth honoring that request.It could put Kenneth in a quandary. He has been asked not to give Jamyl
> away, and clearly he does not intend to; but I think his absolute loyalty to
> the Crown means that he WOULD disclose the information to Brion if he
> thought it truly necessary to do so - and he didn't actually make a clear
> promise to protect Jamyl's secret.
>
> But even if he does this, I can't see how King Brion could affect Denis'
> ordination, however much he might want to - the Church would never accept
> Royal interference in such a central issue as Deryni-proofing its clerics,
> surely.
>
> Colin

That was my thought as far as Kenneth goes. He would have evaluate the
threats to his king and there might be a situation arise where he might
think it wise that Brion needs to know of the Deryni allies he has that
he might not know about. As you point out Kenneth didn't promise not
to expose Jamyl he just chose not to at that time.

Kings are not above tampering with things. If Brion were to have a
play in it, it would probably not be some blatant way. Of course now
that I stop to consider things, Brion would have to have figured out
how the Church was screening out the Deryni in order to actand from DR
it would appear that he was unaware of Merasha. Also we don't know
how Brion used his powers. From Denis Arilan's statement it would
appear that Brion wasn't totally comfortable with his powers unlike his
father.

It was just an odd thought that hit me.

jerry
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

"Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ZVmh.727$Lh.683@trndny09...
>> Does Kenneth tell Brion about Jamyl Arilan being Deryni, if so this
>> would mean that Brion knew that other Arilan guy was Deryni also.
>
> "That other Arilan guy"??? I think we are going to need to call a meeting
> of the DAFC to deal with this wanton disrespect!
>
>> Which might beg the question of did the King have something to do with
>> Dennis gettting through the ordination.
>
> And that is an interesting question, also. I hadn't considered whether
> Kenneth might tell Brion about Jamyl. Tho Jamyl DOES ask Kenneth not to
> give him away and I can see Kenneth honoring that request.

It could put Kenneth in a quandary. He has been asked not to give Jamyl
away, and clearly he does not intend to; but I think his absolute loyalty to
the Crown means that he WOULD disclose the information to Brion if he
thought it truly necessary to do so - and he didn't actually make a clear
promise to protect Jamyl's secret.

But even if he does this, I can't see how King Brion could affect Denis'
ordination, however much he might want to - the Church would never accept
Royal interference in such a central issue as Deryni-proofing its clerics,
surely.

Colin
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

Chris Croughton wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:14:09 -0600, pwilkinson DeleteThis @cix.compulink.co.uk
> <pwilkinson DeleteThis @cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <FTAmh.6515$NO5.2986@trndny01>, journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Mary
> > Alice Kropp) wrote:
> >
> >> *From:* "Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> >> *Date:* Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT
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> >> And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those
> >> "primitive shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now
> >> there's something I did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this
> >> intimate that Kenneth has some Deryni blood somewhere in his
> >> background?
> >
> > If we can trust the Codex (actually, we can't entirely - see below), he
> > does, through at least two and possibly three lines, all of his mother's
> > side of the family. Kenneth's mother Madonna was the daughter of Arnall
> > McLain, Earl of Kierney, who was descended in the male line from Angus
> > Lord McLain, who the Codex says was "the youngest son of Iain II, Earl
> > of Kierney". This, however, is a typo - as the article on Aislinn
> > Macrorie MacLean makes clear, Angus was her son and thus the brother of
> > Iain II and the son of Iain I. So that's one Deryni line of descent.
> >
> > But, of course, Arnall McLain had inherited the Earldom of Kierney not
> > through the male line but from his mother, Glorian MacInnis,
> > great-granddaughter of Richeldis MacLean - so that establishes another
> > Deryni line of descent.
> >
> > Thirdly, and more speculatively, Arnall married Adelicia Heiress of
> > Cassan. Assuming (as I believe the Codex does not state) that Adelicia
> > was Madonna McLain Morgan's mother, then there's a third line of
> > descent. For Adelicia's grandfather was Tammaron Duke of Cassan whose
> > mother was Tiphane Lady Ainslie, daughter of Robert Ainslie and a
> > certain Rhysel Thuryn.
> >
> > So, unlike Denis Arilan, Alaric Morgan was probably descended from
> > Evaine - via the "human" side of his ancestry. Of course, he was also
> > descended from Manfred MacInnis and Tammaron, and Denis almost certainly
> > wasn't.
>
> ISTR KK saying some time ago that she "now knew how Morgan was descended
> from Evaine" (she had been working out the genealogies for some other
> reason).
>
> As far as the Haldane side is concerned, who knows how many "Fitzroys"
> there may have been? Most princes aren't too bothered about the
> offspring of their amorous affairs, and many continue that as kings.
> That was the theory about Warin, as I recall.
>
> Chris C

We know that Donal was not above siring children outside of wedlock
when he considered it necessary. Siring Krispin was done for a
definite purpose, but that does not preclude the possibility that he
could have sired other children on a less purposeful, more casual basis
as a result of various dalliances. Plainly, the man was no monk, and
appeared to have the attitude of "you have to break a few eggs if you
want an omelet." (I may run counter to opinion, but I found Donal's
pragmatism refreshing. I think he basically cared about the right
things, his lands and his family, but he was definitely not hobbled by
an overactive guilty conscience. It made him more real in my eyes.
However, I hope Brion won't take after him in the matter of siring
children on the wives of his loyal followers.)

Melissa
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 19:00:34 -0700, Wesley Struebing
<strueb.RemoveThis@carpedementem.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT, "Mary Alice Kropp"
> <journeyldy.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
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>>And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those "primitive
>>shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now there's something I
>>did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this intimate that Kenneth has some
>>Deryni blood somewhere in his background? Or is he one of those odd,
>>unexplainable (as yet) humans, like Derry and Warin? And, of course, it
>>begs the question: Did Jamyl tell the Council? And/or Denis? Hmmmmm.....
>>
> I got the impression tat he is/was (will be?) more like Derry. I
> wonder, too, how much of that has to do with close, nay, intimate
> contact with a Deryni. That it may be "latent" in all humans, but it
> takes some trigger (or long association). Interesting issue, that!

ISTR someone in one of the other books saying something like "It makes
you wonder what any human could do given the chance", in other words
that all humans have some latent abilities which the Deryni simply have
stronger. This would make sense, that the Deryni (and Haldane) genes
are enablers rather than actually being a new function, which would
explain how they tend to have slightly different effects, the basic
functionality is there but different genes enable different parts of it.

Chris C
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:14:09 -0600, pwilkinson.DeleteThis@cix.compulink.co.uk
<pwilkinson.DeleteThis@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <FTAmh.6515$NO5.2986@trndny01>, journeyldy.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Mary
> Alice Kropp) wrote:
>
>> *From:* "Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy.DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
>> *Date:* Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT
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>> And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those
>> "primitive shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now
>> there's something I did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this
>> intimate that Kenneth has some Deryni blood somewhere in his
>> background?
>
> If we can trust the Codex (actually, we can't entirely - see below), he
> does, through at least two and possibly three lines, all of his mother's
> side of the family. Kenneth's mother Madonna was the daughter of Arnall
> McLain, Earl of Kierney, who was descended in the male line from Angus
> Lord McLain, who the Codex says was "the youngest son of Iain II, Earl
> of Kierney". This, however, is a typo - as the article on Aislinn
> Macrorie MacLean makes clear, Angus was her son and thus the brother of
> Iain II and the son of Iain I. So that's one Deryni line of descent.
>
> But, of course, Arnall McLain had inherited the Earldom of Kierney not
> through the male line but from his mother, Glorian MacInnis,
> great-granddaughter of Richeldis MacLean - so that establishes another
> Deryni line of descent.
>
> Thirdly, and more speculatively, Arnall married Adelicia Heiress of
> Cassan. Assuming (as I believe the Codex does not state) that Adelicia
> was Madonna McLain Morgan's mother, then there's a third line of
> descent. For Adelicia's grandfather was Tammaron Duke of Cassan whose
> mother was Tiphane Lady Ainslie, daughter of Robert Ainslie and a
> certain Rhysel Thuryn.
>
> So, unlike Denis Arilan, Alaric Morgan was probably descended from
> Evaine - via the "human" side of his ancestry. Of course, he was also
> descended from Manfred MacInnis and Tammaron, and Denis almost certainly
> wasn't.

ISTR KK saying some time ago that she "now knew how Morgan was descended
from Evaine" (she had been working out the genealogies for some other
reason).

As far as the Haldane side is concerned, who knows how many "Fitzroys"
there may have been? Most princes aren't too bothered about the
offspring of their amorous affairs, and many continue that as kings.
That was the theory about Warin, as I recall.

Chris C
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

On 4 Jan 2007 10:23:14 -0800, "Shiral" <shiral14 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Chris Croughton wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:14:09 -0600, pwilkinson DeleteThis @cix.compulink.co.uk
>> <pwilkinson DeleteThis @cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <FTAmh.6515$NO5.2986@trndny01>, journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Mary
>> > Alice Kropp) wrote:
>> >
>> >> *From:* "Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
>> >> *Date:* Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >> And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those
>> >> "primitive shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now
>> >> there's something I did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this
>> >> intimate that Kenneth has some Deryni blood somewhere in his
>> >> background?
>> >
>> > If we can trust the Codex (actually, we can't entirely - see below), he
>> > does, through at least two and possibly three lines, all of his mother's
>> > side of the family. Kenneth's mother Madonna was the daughter of Arnall
>> > McLain, Earl of Kierney, who was descended in the male line from Angus
>> > Lord McLain, who the Codex says was "the youngest son of Iain II, Earl
>> > of Kierney". This, however, is a typo - as the article on Aislinn
>> > Macrorie MacLean makes clear, Angus was her son and thus the brother of
>> > Iain II and the son of Iain I. So that's one Deryni line of descent.
>> >
>> > But, of course, Arnall McLain had inherited the Earldom of Kierney not
>> > through the male line but from his mother, Glorian MacInnis,
>> > great-granddaughter of Richeldis MacLean - so that establishes another
>> > Deryni line of descent.
>> >
>> > Thirdly, and more speculatively, Arnall married Adelicia Heiress of
>> > Cassan. Assuming (as I believe the Codex does not state) that Adelicia
>> > was Madonna McLain Morgan's mother, then there's a third line of
>> > descent. For Adelicia's grandfather was Tammaron Duke of Cassan whose
>> > mother was Tiphane Lady Ainslie, daughter of Robert Ainslie and a
>> > certain Rhysel Thuryn.
>> >
>> > So, unlike Denis Arilan, Alaric Morgan was probably descended from
>> > Evaine - via the "human" side of his ancestry. Of course, he was also
>> > descended from Manfred MacInnis and Tammaron, and Denis almost certainly
>> > wasn't.
>>
>> ISTR KK saying some time ago that she "now knew how Morgan was descended
>> from Evaine" (she had been working out the genealogies for some other
>> reason).
>>
>> As far as the Haldane side is concerned, who knows how many "Fitzroys"
>> there may have been? Most princes aren't too bothered about the
>> offspring of their amorous affairs, and many continue that as kings.
>> That was the theory about Warin, as I recall.
>>
>> Chris C
>
>We know that Donal was not above siring children outside of wedlock
>when he considered it necessary. Siring Krispin was done for a
>definite purpose, but that does not preclude the possibility that he
>could have sired other children on a less purposeful, more casual basis
>as a result of various dalliances. Plainly, the man was no monk, and
>appeared to have the attitude of "you have to break a few eggs if you
>want an omelet." (I may run counter to opinion, but I found Donal's
>pragmatism refreshing. I think he basically cared about the right
>things, his lands and his family, but he was definitely not hobbled by
>an overactive guilty conscience. It made him more real in my eyes.
>However, I hope Brion won't take after him in the matter of siring
>children on the wives of his loyal followers.)
>
Just a quick comment - if we would hear about Brion's amorous affairs,
that would be a bolt out of the blue (believable, but unexpected!)
since we have nothing to base any of those suspicions on, yet.

--

Wes Struebing

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

> Well jeez, what didja expect--the Childe LORIS trilogy???? =o)

Now there's a disturbing concept! I hesitate to even imagine what that poor
soul's childhood must have been like.

It's a pleasure to wander back through this group, after a brief visit four
or five years ago, to see the discussion still alive and well, as well as to
see some familiar names from that previous visit. I've checked in from time
to time in recent years, but never at a time when there seemed to be much
activity. This new book seems to have sparked a resurgence of interest and
that's great to see.

> Me, I can't help feel that THIS should have been the first book in the
> trilogy. And it's still really more about Alaric's parents and Donal
> Haldane than it is about Alaric himself. KK's going to have a LOT of
> his life to cover in book three.

I suspect that ITKS should have been condensed a bit and combined with CM as
the first book of the trilogy. Perhaps Ms. Kurtz' plan is to tell the story
of Morgan assiting Brion into his full powers and the defeat of the Marluk
as the third and final chapter of this story, but as a fan I would prefer to
see that as the second book, followed by a third which fleshes out the man
Morgan is at the start of the Chronicles of the Deryni, gives us a closer
look at the society of Gwynedd at that time, and an early look a those who
feature prominently in the Chronicles. The Chronicles, for all that it was
the powerful start of a story which has kept me engaged with this fictional
world for almost thirty years, was a rough early work and it would be nice
to see a more complete picture of the world in which it was set.

> CM's a better book than ITKS, yes. More cohesive. But I think it
> should have covered more of Alaric's childhood. And I still feel a
> certain degree of emotional disengagement on KK's part that I did not
> sense with her earlier books.

I agree that there is an element of detachment which eventually crept into
this series, Melissa. For me, King Javan's Year was the last powerful
writing about this world. The Bastard Prince had a really interesting
ending, one which I felt very intelligently established the premise for how
such exteme intolerence for the Deryni could exist at the time of the start
of the Chronicles without the Deryni having been destroyed or driven out of
Gwynedd in that two hundred year period, but the overall work still seemed a
rather faint shadow of KJY and earlier books in the series.

I'm sure it becomes very difficult to write about characters and events
which are completely known to you, and similarly known to many of your
readers, with any strong feeling of interest and discovery, or with much
passion. I thought Ms. Kurtz did a very commendable job in making The
Harrowing of Gwynedd and KJY so interesting and compelling when we all knew
going in that this just wasn't going to end well. Her characters were
strong and interesting, there were engaging plot lines and twists, and the
feeling of discovery was strong even though the eventual outcome of the
stories was anticipated.

Some of that strength of writing seemed to go away with TBP, and subsequent
works in this series just haven't come close to earlier works, in my
opinion. ITKS and CM, aside from following the broad plot lines already
laid out in previous works, seem to focus far too much on too many
characters and relationships to suite my taste. We get an awful lot of
detail about trivial characters, many of whom really don't reappear after
they are introduced to us, to the point where it starts to becoming
confusing to my limited mental faculties. I think the author may be sharing
the details of this exceptional world she has created as a substitute for
any real passion or engagement with the central story line.

We also get an awful lot of trivial detail about relationships and character
motivation through relatively inconsequential sections of story line. I'm
pretty sure I'm going to have a seizure if I ever again run across tortured
sentences about a character who responds with certain nuanced gestures or
words to a second character, but is fully aware of what character two means
or wants, and in complete agreement with character two, but also aware of
the bigger picture, and of the feelings and needs of others who are involved
in this matter, and giving consideration to the weather that day, while
sharing a brief but intense mental burst of complete understanding with some
third character in the scene. (Sorry, it's a pet peeve which is apparently
starting to control my life, since I'm not sure I can stop writing about
it.)

I enjoyed the days when characters like Morgan and Arilan shared similar
goals but had very different views regarding how those goals should be
advanced. There was some interesting additional plot tension in wondering
if the good guys could overcome the bad guys and, if so, whether they might
not do so because they were too busy disagreeing with each other. I also
tend to believe that it isn't a shortcoming if the author doesn't make every
character's motivations, thought process and plans perfectly clear to the
reader. I don't need to know everything that Alyce, Kenneth or whoever
might be thinking, or everything that's motivating them, or even that their
knowledge of their situation is perfect. Characters with flaws and
conflicts are fun and interesting. Wondering what they know, think or
what's motivating them can be half the fun of exploring a fictional world.
It makes what they might do next less predicable. That makes the story more
interesting.

Anyway, enough of that rant. I continue to be interested in this wonderful
series of novels, whatever my petty frustrations with current works, and I
have no doubt that I'll be one of the first in line, twenty bucks (or
whatever) clutched in my paw, awaiting the arrival of the next installment.
I'll also be interested in getting together again with you all, however
briefly, to share our common appreciation for work that spans more than
thirty years and resonates so richly for so many of us.

Steve

> /end grumbling... for now.
>
> Melissa
>
 >> Stay informed about: Child Morgan- Spoiler 

On 4 Jan 2007 10:23:14 -0800, Shiral
<shiral14.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Chris Croughton wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:14:09 -0600, pwilkinson.DeleteThis@cix.compulink.co.uk
>> <pwilkinson.DeleteThis@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <FTAmh.6515$NO5.2986@trndny01>, journeyldy.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Mary
>> > Alice Kropp) wrote:
>> >
>> >> *From:* "Mary Alice Kropp" <journeyldy.DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
>> >> *Date:* Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:19:17 GMT
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And yet one more thing I forgot that was very intriguing. Those
>> >> "primitive shields that Kenneth had not known he possessed." Now
>> >> there's something I did not expect, much like Jamyl. Does this
>> >> intimate that Kenneth has some Deryni blood somewhere in his
>> >> background?
>> >
>> > If we can trust the Codex (actually, we can't entirely - see below), he
>> > does, through at least two and possibly three lines, all of his mother's
>> > side of the family. Kenneth's mother Madonna was the daughter of Arnall
>> > McLain, Earl of Kierney, who was descended in the male line from Angus
>> > Lord McLain, who the Codex says was "the youngest son of Iain II, Earl
>> > of Kierney". This, however, is a typo - as the article on Aislinn
>> > Macrorie MacLean makes clear, Angus was her son and thus the brother of
>> > Iain II and the son of Iain I. So that's one Deryni line of descent.
>> >
>> > But, of course, Arnall McLain had inherited the Earldom of Kierney not
>> > through the male line but from his mother, Glorian MacInnis,
>> > great-granddaughter of Richeldis MacLean - so that establishes another
>> > Deryni line of descent.
>> >
>> > Thirdly, and more speculatively, Arnall married Adelicia Heiress of
>> > Cassan. Assuming (as I believe the Codex does not state) that Adelicia
>> > was Madonna McLain Morgan's mother, then there's a third line of
>> > descent. For Adelicia's grandfather was Tammaron Duke of Cassan whose
>> > mother was Tiphane Lady Ainslie, daughter of Robert Ainslie and a
>> > certain Rhysel Thuryn.
>> >
>> > So, unlike Denis Arilan, Alaric Morgan was probably descended from
>> > Evaine - via the "human" side of his ancestry. Of course, he was also
>> > descended from Manfred MacInnis and Tammaron, and Denis almost certainly
>> > wasn't.
>>
>> ISTR KK saying some time ago that she "now knew how Morgan was descended
>> from Evaine" (she had been working out the genealogies for some other
>> reason).
>>
>> As far as the Haldane side is concerned, who knows how many "Fitzroys"
>> there may have been? Most princes aren't too bothered about the
>> offspring of their amorous affairs, and many continue that as kings.
>> That was the theory about Warin, as I recall.
>>
>> Chris C
>
> We know that Donal was not above siring children outside of wedlock
> when he considered it necessary. Siring Krispin was done for a
> definite purpose, but that does not preclude the possibility that he
> could have sired other children on a less purposeful, more casual basis
> as a result of various dalliances. Plainly, the man was no monk, and
> appeared to have the attitude of "you have to break a few eggs if you
> want an omelet." (I may run counter to opinion, but I found Donal's
> pragmatism refreshing. I think he basically cared about the right
> things, his lands and his family, but he was definitely not hobbled by
> an overactive guilty conscience. It made him more real in my eyes.
> However, I hope Brion won't take after him in the matter of siring
> children on the wives of his loyal followers.)

I hope so as well. I wonder how well that was actually known, outside
the people actually affected.

I think the only kings and princes we can say for certain didn't play
the field were Cinhil and his sons and Kelson (and those who died before
they were old enough). Even being a saint doesn't make it certain, most
saints had a normal (or wild in some cases) youth (Saint Francis, even)
and could easily have sown some wild oats before settling down.

As far as Donal is concerned, I think that he genuinely did have the
interests of the kingdom and his sons in mind, the cases we know aren't
just casual exercise of the droit de seignieur but planned as the best
way he could think of to protect the realm and family. I think that
this hardened him (we don't see him overly struggling with his
conscience, but I suspect that he did at least the first time), and I
suspect that his decline when Alyce died was a reaction to the hard
shell finally cracking under too many blows as well as exhaustion and
the chill.

Chris C
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