The Children of Hurin

Hi.

Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Indeed. In fact, one little-known draft of "The Wanderings of Hurin"
> describes Hurin's fury when he learns that the men of Brethil severed
> Turin's head before his burial and were keeping it packed in ice "so
> he can return and strike the fatal blow to Morgoth at the Dagor
> Dagorath". Like the rest of "Wanderings", Christopher Tolkien chose
> for some reason to omit this from the published /Silmarillion/.

Where can this draft be found? In the /The War of the Jewels/ itself?
(Cuz I don't remember to have seen it there!) And do you think CT did
right to omit the WH from the published /Silmarillion/? And in the Ch.
"Of the ruin of Doriath" that quote of Thingol ("How dare ye of
uncouth race...") was invented by C.T. (and was also his death by the
Dwarves at that same place?)?

Tolkien wrote in the "Tale of Years": "Doriath cannot be entered by a
hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured
outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain
by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed
Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves."

It seems that the CT decided to make Thingol die at Menegroth, once,
as I can recall, there's no writing saying that he dies there (and of
his dialogue with the Dwarves). Was it so?
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

On 11 Jul, 01:33, César <cesar.e... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> > Indeed. In fact, one little-known draft of "The Wanderings of Hurin"
> > describes Hurin's fury when he learns that the men of Brethil severed
> > Turin's head before his burial and were keeping it packed in ice "so
> > he can return and strike the fatal blow to Morgoth at the Dagor
> > Dagorath". Like the rest of "Wanderings", Christopher Tolkien chose
> > for some reason to omit this from the published /Silmarillion/.
>
> Where can this draft be found? In the /The War of the Jewels/ itself?
> (Cuz I don't remember to have seen it there!)

I fear that Steuard "What do you mean, silly?" Jensen was joking
there, and that you fell for his joke. It may take you a long time to
find that draft...

(not that I get the joke - severed head? packed in ice? Ted Williams?)

> And do you think CT did
> right to omit the WH from the published /Silmarillion/? And in the Ch.
> "Of the ruin of Doriath" that quote of Thingol ("How dare ye of
> uncouth race...") was invented by C.T. (and was also his death by the
> Dwarves at that same place?)?
>
> Tolkien wrote in the "Tale of Years": "Doriath cannot be entered by a
> hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured
> outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain
> by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed
> Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves."
>
> It seems that the CT decided to make Thingol die at Menegroth, once,
> as I can recall, there's no writing saying that he dies there (and of
> his dialogue with the Dwarves). Was it so?

This was discussed here a while ago. The 'Ruin of Doriath' chapter
does contain patched up "joining" bits, and the storyline is geared to
making sense, rather than sticking to what Tolkien wrote, but Mr
Hicklin did find some evidence that the line you refer to was borrowed
from the Book of Lost Tales, see the post here:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/5acea58af9a95cca

See also the discussion of this chapter in the CotW (Chapter of the
Week) discussion thread here:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/7c9f3503a07d1f16

Christopher
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:00:58 -0400, chriskreuzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com
<chriskreuzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> And in the Ch.
>> "Of the ruin of Doriath" that quote of Thingol ("How dare ye of
>> uncouth race...") was invented by C.T.

Not exactly. It's actually a modified version of Tinwelint's address to
Urin in the Lost Tales.

--
"There's got to be a better way than fighting," said Mr. Saveloy.
"Yep. Lots of 'em," replied Cohen. "Only none of 'em work."
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:53:16 -0400, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>
> Though I'm still not sure what prompted the original comparison of
> the two, though the duality expressed in the Observer article might
> be a hint?
>
> Within months of setting up base near his father's Florida
> home, John Henry was controlling Ted's life. Those who ob-
> served the relationship at close hand have contrasting
> views of how it worked.
> The grotesque story of Williams' post-death fate doesn't seem to
> parallel the story of Túrin.
>

I happend to read a bio of Williams on holiday, and his personality comes
across as a dead ringer for Turin: the superhuman physical skills, the
loner-ness, the moodiness, the explosive temper balanced by an impulsively
soft heart, the touchy pride, the bad relationships with women.. and of
course being the superstar on a losing team. Childhood marred by a runaway
father and a distant mother. He was even tall and lean with dark hair and
grey eyes.

--
"There's got to be a better way than fighting," said Mr. Saveloy.
"Yep. Lots of 'em," replied Cohen. "Only none of 'em work."
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

In message <<Xns996ACA4F35235T.Forch.TakeThisOut@130.133.1.4>>, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> "chriskreuzer@hotmail.com" <chriskreuzer.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> spoke these
> staves:

>> I fear that Steuard "What do you mean, silly?" Jensen was joking
>> there...

> I really liked the casual way it was done -- very convincing.

Why thank you. My favorite jokes are often those that take a
moment to recognize as such; I've managed to pull that off here on at
least a few occasions. (I still have fond memories of my "Tolkien's
'Smith' Essay" post on April Fool's Day a couple of years ago...)
Some of my favorite bits in the E-text were that sort of thing, too.
("Pedro's Melons and Minnows"! I continue to be at the service of
Bill Hsu and his family.)

>> (not that I get the joke - severed head? packed in ice? Ted
>> Williams?)

> A little searching reveals a grizzly tale:

I'm glad that someone else got the joke (or at least tracked it down).
I'm not generally much of a sports person, but I had friends in grad
school who could be pretty fanatic baseball fans. When this fiasco
about Ted Williams' body being "cryonically frozen" with his head
detached became public, they were aghast (particularly because of the
suggestions that it was against his wishes and those of some of his
remaining family).

It became an ongoing source of both horror and humor for us over the
next year or two, and for once I actually remembered a sports figure's
name. Mind you, I couldn't tell you what position he played or what
exactly he was famous for (well, "baseball"), but I sure do know that
his head is languishing frozen in a pot somewhere. (My friends joked
that a group of loyal fans should somehow steal the head and secretly
give it a dignified burial beneath Fenway Park.)

> Though I'm still not sure what prompted the original comparison of
> the two, though the duality expressed in the Observer article might
> be a hint?

Now that, I couldn't tell you. (Like I said, I only know about the
horrifying stuff that happened /after/ he died.)

Steuard Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

In message
<news:1184169658.043260.237280@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>
"chriskreuzer@hotmail.com" <chriskreuzer RemoveThis @hotmail.com> spoke these
staves:
>

<snip>

> I fear that Steuard "What do you mean, silly?" Jensen was joking
> there, and that you fell for his joke. It may take you a long time
> to find that draft...

What? Steuard make a joke? Bite your tongue!

I really liked the casual way it was done -- very convincing.

> (not that I get the joke - severed head? packed in ice? Ted
> Williams?)

A little searching reveals a grizzly tale:

<http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/twillliams.html>
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=
9E05E3DA1630F937A2575BC0A9659C8B63>

and even in British media:
<http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,,754898,00.html>

Though I'm still not sure what prompted the original comparison of
the two, though the duality expressed in the Observer article might
be a hint?

Within months of setting up base near his father's Florida
home, John Henry was controlling Ted's life. Those who ob-
served the relationship at close hand have contrasting
views of how it worked.

The grotesque story of Williams' post-death fate doesn't seem to
parallel the story of Túrin.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- /Interesting Times/ (Terry Pratchett)
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

On Jul 11, 10:04 pm, Steuard Jensen <steu....DeleteThis@slimy.com> wrote:

>
> Now that, I couldn't tell you. (Like I said, I only know about the
> horrifying stuff that happened /after/ he died.)
>
> Steuard Jensen

Er ... who or what is Ted Williams and what happened to him?
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:01:33 -0400, JJ <john DeleteThis @jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> On Jul 11, 10:04 pm, Steuard Jensen <steu... DeleteThis @slimy.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Now that, I couldn't tell you. (Like I said, I only know about the
>> horrifying stuff that happened /after/ he died.)
>>
>> Steuard Jensen
>
> Er ... who or what is Ted Williams and what happened to him?
>

Ted Williams was one of the greatest baseball players ever, probably the
best pure hitter of them all- but he had a reputation (exaggerated by
hostile sportswriters) for having a "difficult" personality.

The ghoulish postmortem story is that after his death, his unsavoury son
had his head cryogenically frozen, against his wishes.

--
"There's got to be a better way than fighting," said Mr. Saveloy.
"Yep. Lots of 'em," replied Cohen. "Only none of 'em work."
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

William Cloud Hicklin wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:01:33 -0400, JJ <john DeleteThis @jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 11, 10:04 pm, Steuard Jensen <steu... DeleteThis @slimy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Now that, I couldn't tell you. (Like I said, I only know about the
>>> horrifying stuff that happened /after/ he died.)
>>>
>>> Steuard Jensen
>>
>> Er ... who or what is Ted Williams and what happened to him?
>>
>
> Ted Williams was one of the greatest baseball players ever, probably the
> best pure hitter of them all- but he had a reputation (exaggerated by
> hostile sportswriters) for having a "difficult" personality.
>
> The ghoulish postmortem story is that after his death, his unsavoury son
> had his head cryogenically frozen, against his wishes.
>
No, I rather think the ghoulish story (not apparently borne out by mere
facts) is that his unsavoury son may have _not_ had the head frozen. His
body (apparently c/w head) was frozen according to his wishes.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin 

In message <<1184248893.848779.193740.DeleteThis@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>>,
JJ <john.DeleteThis@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 10:04 pm, Steuard Jensen <steu....DeleteThis@slimy.com> wrote:
>> Now that, I couldn't tell you. (Like I said, I only know about the
>> horrifying stuff that happened /after/ he died.)

> Er ... who or what is Ted Williams and what happened to him?

I tried to give a (very) brief summary of that a couple of paragraphs
above the comment that you quoted, actually; you might look back at my
previous post. He was a very famous baseball player, and there was a
nasty legal battle after he died between part of his family who
claimed that he wanted to be frozen in a vat somewhere so that future
scientists could revive him, and other family members who claimed he
had been horrified by that idea and wanted to be cremated. Last I
heard, his body was frozen in a tank and his head was frozen
separately in its own little container. Ick.

The only reason I brought it up, of course, was that the original
post's comparison of Ted Williams to Turin reminded me that in both
cases, some people were convinced that they'd be coming back from the
dead.
Steuard Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: The Children of Hurin