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word_chemist

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Since: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 264



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:08 pm
Post subject: The New Church of England
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)

Interesting and, despite what Rennie will sqawk (if he's still here: looks
like there's about 4 of us now), even handed look at the immi word, islam
and the upshot of Powell's speech.

Sunday Telegraph
The tide is turning and we are unprepared
By Kevin Myers
(Filed: 14/12/2003)

The local council in High Wycombe has banned an advertisement on a library
notice-board for a carol service in the neighbouring All Saints church, on
the grounds that Buckinghamshire now has "a multi-faith community and
passions could be inflamed by religious issues". In France, a government
committee has advocated the banning of Muslim headscarves in schools.


Each affair confirms that something irreversible has occurred in Europe:
Islam has taken root in what for the best part of 1,500 years was the
evangelical heart and administrative home of Christianity.
The British response has been the typified by the Buckinghamshire approach,
which is to make the majority conform with rules which in practice had been
devised to deal specifically with a minority. The French attitude is
characteristically centrist, and one which would have been recognised by the
Sun King or by Napoleon: government by edict.
Well, if the French government does try to outlaw the hijab in schools, it
will fail: and fail spectacularly. In doing so, it will probably give the
CRS, the special internal security police, lots of opportunity to practise
their riot control techniques in Muslim ghettoes: meanwhile the French
prison system might be well advised to prepare for hundreds of teenage girls
and their parents.
"We must be clear," declared the French ombudsman, Bernard Stasi. "There are
forces which are seeking to destabilise the republic and it is time for the
republic to react." Well and good; but reacting for the sake of reacting is
likely to aid and abet those very forces of which the French are so very
frightened - as indeed, are councils and police forces in many parts of
Britain. And rightly so.
The worst consequence of Enoch Powell's "rivers of blood" speech was that it
prevented all reasoned debate about immigration. Anyone who questioned
immigration was promptly locked up in an intellectual box called "racism",
to be reviled, mocked and ignored. Immigration thus became a standard
feature of British and European life, and within my lifetime, millions and
millions of non-Christian Asians and Africans poured into the traditionally
white, Christian cities of a dozen countries.
Islam is much like Christianity: its spectrum is very broad, and many forms
of it encourage moderation and toleration. But there are extremes which have
no parallel in Christianity, nor even in communism or Nazism: the suicide
bomber who believes that paradise awaits those who die in the act of the
killing the infidel is a creature for whom the European mind, and European
institutions have been wholly unprepared. And at a less extreme level,
though the experience of communism has prepared them intellectually for the
idea of national disloyalty, Europeans are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal
with an abiding mass loyalty to foreign entities by their fellow citizens.
At its most extreme, this is less a question of the Tebbit test of loyalty
than the altogether more demanding Taleban test. Britain has so far produced
three suicide bombers, and intelligence files found in Afghanistan indicate
that 1,192 Britons were trained there by Islamic terrorists. A handful are
prisoners in Guantanemo Bay: most of the rest are - presumably - back home,
awaiting instructions.
Of course, because one is a Muslim doesn't mean one is a terrorist or a
terrorist-sympathiser, and the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain has been
active in denouncing the Taleban. Moreover, moderate Muslims are as
vehemently opposed to extremism as any of us. But I'd be interested to know
what proportion of the Muslim population of Bradford or Blackburn, Paris or
Marseilles, are "moderate" in the way I understand the word, or how many
European Muslims genuinely yearn for the foundation of the khilafa, a single
Islamic world run on religious lines.
But what about the alienation which so many European Muslims feel towards
the states they inhabit? How many young British Muslims have been racially
abused by police officers? And how many French Muslims live lives of
desperation, violence and exclusion in the vile concrete cites which
surround Paris, Lyons and Marseilles?
These are not irrelevant questions, if only because they touch upon one of
the key features of western European life, one which is absent entirely from
Muslim societies: the notion of social justice for all, regardless of creed.
But it is a liberal fallacy simply to connect social conditions with
terrorism. Slums tend to produce lumpen-criminals rather than religious or
political fanatics: the Islamo-fascist murderers of 9/11 came from affluent
families. Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber and petty felon, is the exception to
the rule that Islamic fundamentalists tend to be well-educated and
law-abiding.
Headwear in France, notices on libraries in Buckinghamshire: they speak of a
permanent alteration in the way that Europeans must live. Moreover, other
changes, unrelated to immigration, also become relevant here. All Saints
church, home of the carol service, has no vicar: but you can be sure the
local mosque has an imam. The stark reality, palatable or otherwise, is that
Islam is now the rising church of England.

c/o ROBBIE

--
Incapacity Benefits~ the blog
http://robbie.journalspace.com/

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davtomcat

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 78



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: The New Church of England [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"ROBBIE" wrote

 > Interesting and, despite what Rennie will sqawk (if he's still here: looks
 > like there's about 4 of us now), even handed look at the immi word, islam
 > and the upshot of Powell's speech.

 > Sunday Telegraph
 > The tide is turning and we are unprepared
 > By Kevin Myers
 > (Filed: 14/12/2003)

 > The local council in High Wycombe has banned an advertisement on a library
 > notice-board for a carol service in the neighbouring All Saints church, on
 > the grounds that Buckinghamshire now has "a multi-faith community and
 > passions could be inflamed by religious issues".

In an American library you would find the carol service right under
the class schedule for Zen meditation. Maybe the European
sophisticates could learn something?

 > In France, a government
 > committee has advocated the banning of Muslim headscarves in schools.

According to _The Economist_, the proposed ban applies to ". . . all
'visible' religious symbols, crucifix and yarmulke included", in
hospitals and other state buildings as well as schools.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinylink.com/?J56giDrqRt" target="_blank">http://tinylink.com/?J56giDrqRt</a>

Resentment of the Muslim headscarf seems to be what's driving the ban,
but I think Myers's wording is misleading.

 > Each affair confirms that something irreversible has occurred in Europe:
 > Islam has taken root in what for the best part of 1,500 years was the
 > evangelical heart and administrative home of Christianity.

Judaism has been rooted there for as long. Islam is a close relative,
one might say a child, of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammed probably
got his monotheist inspiration from contact with Arab communities that
had converted to Judaism and Christianity.

Enlightenment tolerance should make room for any religion that isn't
itself incorrigibly intolerant. Need I say that the latter
qualification does not apply to Islam, Know-Nothing propaganda
notwithstanding?

 > The worst consequence of Enoch Powell's "rivers of blood" speech was that it
 > prevented all reasoned debate about immigration. Anyone who questioned
 > immigration was promptly locked up in an intellectual box called "racism",
 > to be reviled, mocked and ignored.

I don't know much about the European immigration debate, but this kind
of hysterical shrieking is common in the U.S. It's amazing how loud
people get when they complain about being silenced.

The truth in the U.S. is that the absolute necessity of some
immigration control is the almost unquestioned orthodoxy, and calls
for a moratorium on immigration get more attention than calls for open
borders.

It is true that people who agitate for tighter immigration controls
are sometimes unfairly accused of racism. But some immigration
opponents do use blatantly racist arguments and, when called on it,
falsely claim they are accused of racism "only" because they oppose
immigration.

 > But there are extremes which have
 > no parallel in Christianity, nor even in communism or Nazism: the suicide
 > bomber who believes that paradise awaits those who die in the act of the
 > killing the infidel is a creature for whom the European mind, and European
 > institutions have been wholly unprepared.

Nonsense. Religious martyrdom and self-sacrificing battlefield heroics
have rich histories in European tradition. Crusaders received
indulgences, and the pagan Norse are said to have believed that heroes
fallen in battle went straight to Valhalla.

Modern Western peoples do seem to have an aversion to sending warriors
on missions from which fewer than one in ten return. I don't see that
big a difference between 10% and 0%. It's still _dulce et decorum_ for
those who don't come back.

Btw, don't Americans have a greater aversion to suicide missions than
Europeans? I thought that was the point of the famous joke about the
UN team on the airplane.

 > And at a less extreme level,
 > though the experience of communism has prepared them intellectually for the
 > idea of national disloyalty, Europeans are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal
 > with an abiding mass loyalty to foreign entities by their fellow citizens.

Again I think my country has some lessons to teach, particularly from
our mistakes. In WW2 our government mistreated the Japanese on the
pretext that they were disloyal, even though their own intelligence
services had determined that they were not. It seems intelligence
always gets ignored when it is politically inconvenient.

 > But I'd be interested to know
 > what proportion of the Muslim population of Bradford or Blackburn, Paris or
 > Marseilles, are "moderate" in the way I understand the word, or how many
 > European Muslims genuinely yearn for the foundation of the khilafa, a single
 > Islamic world run on religious lines.
 > But what about the alienation which so many European Muslims feel towards
 > the states they inhabit? How many young British Muslims have been racially
 > abused by police officers? And how many French Muslims live lives of
 > desperation, violence and exclusion in the vile concrete cites which
 > surround Paris, Lyons and Marseilles?
 > These are not irrelevant questions,

They are difficult questions to answer with much certainty or
precision.

 > if only because they touch upon one of
 > the key features of western European life, one which is absent entirely from
 > Muslim societies: the notion of social justice for all, regardless of creed.

If this is such a key feature, why are the French hot under the collar
over some veils, and why does Myers take it for granted that some
number of "young British Muslims have been racially abused"?

 > But it is a liberal fallacy simply to connect social conditions with
 > terrorism. Slums tend to produce lumpen-criminals rather than religious or
 > political fanatics: the Islamo-fascist murderers of 9/11 came from affluent
 > families. Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber and petty felon, is the exception to
 > the rule that Islamic fundamentalists tend to be well-educated and
 > law-abiding.

This is a subject on which I would like to see more hard data.

Terrorists who travel the world may disproportionately include those
who can finance their own travel. The suicide bombers of Palestine, or
Sri Lanka, may show a different profile.

 > The stark reality, palatable or otherwise, is that
 > Islam is now the rising church of England.

Melodrama.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 629



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: The New Church of England [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

David Tomlin wrote:

 > "ROBBIE" wrote
 > ....
 >
  > > The local council in High Wycombe has banned an advertisement on a library
  > > notice-board for a carol service in the neighbouring All Saints church, on
  > > the grounds that Buckinghamshire now has "a multi-faith community and
  > > passions could be inflamed by religious issues".
 >
 > In an American library you would find the carol service right under
 > the class schedule for Zen meditation. Maybe the European
 > sophisticates could learn something?

.....

Tonight in San Francisco I saw a flyer for a Buddhist event with a drawing of
Santa Claus in lotus position.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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word_chemist

External


Since: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 264



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The New Church of England [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"David Tomlin" <davtomcat RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f38da74.0312162103.35d2b74e@posting.google.com...

 >
 >
 > I don't know much about the European immigration debate

That's the problem: Americans who come bowling in with the 'oh you peoplle
are unnecessarily shrieking' don't realise that the immigration/race thing
here is quite different to the US's; unfortunately we have ended up saddled
with american idealogies on the subject.

, but this kind
 > of hysterical shrieking is common in the U.S. It's amazing how loud
 > people get when they complain about being silenced.

Is it? Isn't this rather an ingenuous thing to say here?


 >
 > The truth in the U.S. is that the absolute necessity of some
 > immigration control is the almost unquestioned orthodoxy, and calls
 > for a moratorium on immigration get more attention than calls for open
 > borders.
 >
 > It is true that people who agitate for tighter immigration controls
 > are sometimes unfairly accused of racism. But some immigration
 > opponents do use blatantly racist arguments

Which politician or informer that is high in the public and media eye have
used blatantly racist arguments against immigration? This is a genuine
question.

and, when called on it,
 > falsely claim they are accused of racism "only" because they oppose
 > immigration.
 >

'Racism', as defined by campus students and arsehole college professors has
become a huge mexican stand off of a growth industry.



  > > But there are extremes which have
  > > no parallel in Christianity, nor even in communism or Nazism: the
suicide
  > > bomber who believes that paradise awaits those who die in the act of the
  > > killing the infidel is a creature for whom the European mind, and
European
  > > institutions have been wholly unprepared.
 >
 > Nonsense. Religious martyrdom and self-sacrificing battlefield heroics
 > have rich histories in European tradition. Crusaders received
 > indulgences, and the pagan Norse are said to have believed that heroes
 > fallen in battle went straight to Valhalla.

A pedantic point but he asked for it by not saying 'modern european mind'.


 >
 > Modern Western peoples do seem to have an aversion to sending warriors
 > on missions from which fewer than one in ten return. I don't see that
 > big a difference between 10% and 0%. It's still _dulce et decorum_ for
 > those who don't come back.
 >
 > Btw, don't Americans have a greater aversion to suicide missions than
 > Europeans? I thought that was the point of the famous joke about the
 > UN team on the airplane.
 >
  > > And at a less extreme level,
  > > though the experience of communism has prepared them intellectually for
the
  > > idea of national disloyalty, Europeans are hopelessly ill-equipped to
deal
  > > with an abiding mass loyalty to foreign entities by their fellow
citizens.
 >
 > Again I think my country has some lessons to teach, particularly from
 > our mistakes. In WW2 our government mistreated the Japanese on the
 > pretext that they were disloyal, even though their own intelligence
 > services had determined that they were not. It seems intelligence
 > always gets ignored when it is politically inconvenient.

You may have a point but Nationality and Religion are, obviously, a
different ball game.


 >
  > > But I'd be interested to know
  > > what proportion of the Muslim population of Bradford or Blackburn, Paris
or
  > > Marseilles, are "moderate" in the way I understand the word, or how many
  > > European Muslims genuinely yearn for the foundation of the khilafa, a
single
  > > Islamic world run on religious lines.
  > > But what about the alienation which so many European Muslims feel
towards
  > > the states they inhabit? How many young British Muslims have been
racially
  > > abused by police officers? And how many French Muslims live lives of
  > > desperation, violence and exclusion in the vile concrete cites which
  > > surround Paris, Lyons and Marseilles?
  > > These are not irrelevant questions,
 >
 > They are difficult questions to answer with much certainty or
 > precision.
 >
  > > if only because they touch upon one of
  > > the key features of western European life, one which is absent entirely
from
  > > Muslim societies: the notion of social justice for all, regardless of
creed.
 >
 > If this is such a key feature, why are the French hot under the collar
 > over some veils, and why does Myers take it for granted that some
 > number of "young British Muslims have been racially abused"?

I can't speak about the French- they are a law unto themselves. Here, there
have been abuses within the police force and between people, that is part of
human nature; however we have a 'notion' of social justice for all, whereas
the muslim societies don't; that is the point I think he is making anyway.


 >
  > > But it is a liberal fallacy simply to connect social conditions with
  > > terrorism. Slums tend to produce lumpen-criminals rather than religious
or
  > > political fanatics: the Islamo-fascist murderers of 9/11 came from
affluent
  > > families. Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber and petty felon, is the
exception to
  > > the rule that Islamic fundamentalists tend to be well-educated and
  > > law-abiding.
 >
 > This is a subject on which I would like to see more hard data.
 >
 > Terrorists who travel the world may disproportionately include those
 > who can finance their own travel. The suicide bombers of Palestine, or
 > Sri Lanka, may show a different profile.
 >
  > > The stark reality, palatable or otherwise, is that
  > > Islam is now the rising church of England.
 >
 > Melodrama.

It is rising and it is in England. The Church of England is in terminal
decline. He maybe grandstanding but he has an interesting point.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davtomcat

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 78



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:35 pm
Post subject: Re: The New Church of England [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"ROBBIE" wrote

 > "David Tomlin" wrote

 > , but this kind
  > > of hysterical shrieking is common in the U.S. It's amazing how loud
  > > people get when they complain about being silenced.

 > Is it? Isn't this rather an ingenuous thing to say here?

I don't think so. I do think you have a point that I am missing.

 > Which politician or informer that is high in the public and media eye have
 > used blatantly racist arguments against immigration?

Peter Brimelow, author of the anti-immigration bible _Alien Nation_.
He identifies himself as a "white nationalist", while dismissing as a
"smear" the observation that he is a racist.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.vdare.com/pb/front_page.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vdare.com/pb/front_page.htm</a>

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.vdare.com/pb/control_borders.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vdare.com/pb/control_borders.htm</a>

 > 'Racism', as defined by campus students and arsehole college professors has
 > become a huge mexican stand off of a growth industry.

Certainly. But when someone plainly says that a good reason for
limiting immigration is to keep the average skin tone of the country
from getting darker, I call that racism.

   > > > But there are extremes which have
   > > > no parallel in Christianity, nor even in communism or Nazism: the
 > suicide
   > > > bomber who believes that paradise awaits those who die in the act of the
   > > > killing the infidel is a creature for whom the European mind, and
 > European
   > > > institutions have been wholly unprepared.

  > > Nonsense. Religious martyrdom and self-sacrificing battlefield heroics
  > > have rich histories in European tradition. Crusaders received
  > > indulgences, and the pagan Norse are said to have believed that heroes
  > > fallen in battle went straight to Valhalla.

 > A pedantic point but he asked for it by not saying 'modern european mind'.

Europeans aren't ignorant of their cultural heritage. Religious
martyrdom may be currently out of fashion, but secular ideologies like
nationalism and democracy are still believed to call for such
sacrifice. The real issue is the unwillingness of many to recognize
that resistance to neo-colonialism is such a cause for many
non-Europeans.

 > You may have a point but Nationality and Religion are, obviously, a
 > different ball game.

I'm not sure I understand the metaphor. Religion, nationality, and
political loyalty are related to one another in different ways among
different peoples. So, I would say there are many "ball games", not
just one labeled "nationality" and another labeled "religion".

I don't think political loyalties based on religion are necessarily
stronger than those based on nationalism, if that is what you mean to
suggest.

As it happens, the Japanese had a form of nationalism that was
reinforced by religion.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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