CoH reading order, redux

In message
<news:G9Yii.4311$zA4.1118@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Gregory
Hernandez" <gregrosa RemoveThis @earthlink.net> spoke these staves:
>

<snip>

> I don't know if there is anything else that would really further
> the narrative is there?

Not really a part of the CoH (though the epilogue to the published
book is taken from there), but 'The Wanderings of Húrin' in /The War
of the Jewels/ (HoMe11) tells the story of what happened to Húrin
after his release (though it stops before he goes to Doriath or
Nargothrond, so those parts only exist in pre-LotR versions).

Some of the hints in CoH, in particular in the debate between Húrin
and Morgoth, to the early history of Men fit very well with
descriptions associated with the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth' in
/Morgoth's Ring/ (HoMe10). But I don't think that this can be said to
'further the narrative' any more than any of the Silm chapters
preceding 'Of Túrin Turambar' do.

> I think someone mentioned that the Lays of Beleriand have more
> information about certain events and/or places. Or am I
> misremembering?

The Lay of the Children of Húrin adds some details of description and
probably some minor events (I haven't done an actual comparison):
there's a description in the first appendix to /The Children of
Húrin/, where CRT runs a comparison between, IIRC, the descriptions
of the approach to Nargothrond by Túrin and Gwindor in the lay and
the narrative. My impression is that this passage is very
representative for the kind of differences between the versions.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was
standing on the shoulders of giants.
- Sir Isaac Newton
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"Gregory Hernandez" spoke these staves:
> <snip>
>> I don't know if there is anything else that would really further
>> the narrative, is there?

"Troels Forchhammer" responded:
[minor snip]
>
> 'The Wanderings of Húrin' in /The War
> of the Jewels/ (HoMe11) tells the story of what happened to Húrin
> after his release (though it stops before he goes to Doriath or
> Nargothrond, so those parts only exist in pre-LotR versions).
>
> Some of the hints in CoH, in particular in the debate between Húrin
> and Morgoth, to the early history of Men fit very well with
> descriptions associated with the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth' in
> /Morgoth's Ring/ (HoMe10). But I don't think that this can be said to
> 'further the narrative' any more than any of the Silm chapters
> preceding 'Of Túrin Turambar' do.

Thanks, T! So we have two extra bits, then: in HoME 10 & 11. Good to
know. Much appreciated, pardner!
Greg
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On Jul 6, 10:05 pm, "Gregory Hernandez" <gregr....TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Actually, upon re-reading Troels post, I see that only HoME 11 adds anything
> to the story, the "Wanderings of Hurin". Gotcha, T.

And it adds a lot.

Some of it is contradictory, the main example that I remember
being who buried Morwen.
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> Thanks, T! So we have two extra bits, then: in HoME 10 & 11. Good to
> know. Much appreciated, pardner!
> Greg
>
Actually, upon re-reading Troels post, I see that only HoME 11 adds anything
to the story, the "Wanderings of Hurin". Gotcha, T.

Greg
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On Jul 7, 4:01 pm, "Gregory Hernandez" <gregr....DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Also, as an aside, just to show how complete a novice I am, I didn't realize
> that the history of Tolkien's writing of "The Hobbit" was quite so complex
> as to merit a two volume study. That, in addition to the Annotated Hobbit,
> which I already have.

I wonder if this two-volume study is going a bit too far. Maybe
Christopher was right when he said, "It's significance for Middle-
earth lies in what it would do, not in what it was." (HoMe VI,
Foreword)
 >> Stay informed about: CoH reading order, redux 

So yeah, thanks all for hipping me to the "Wanderings of Hurin" in HoME XI.
I'm adding that volume to UT, and BoLT 1 and 2, which will supplement my
reading of the CoH and Silm. that I already have. Boy, I'm glad that my
birthday is coming up. Gotta hit my peeps up for these additions to my
(expanding) library.

Guess I gotta cross Deadwood seasons 2 and 3 off the list until Christmas.
Note to self: make more friends.

Also, as an aside, just to show how complete a novice I am, I didn't realize
that the history of Tolkien's writing of "The Hobbit" was quite so complex
as to merit a two volume study. That, in addition to the Annotated Hobbit,
which I already have.

Lotsa goodies to occupy one for a while. Like tracking down a copy of "The
Road Goes Ever On" 3rd printing, with CD. And then getting a new copy of my
favorite of Tolkien's children's stories, the wonderful "Father Christmas
Letters". Altogether, I'm hopeful that when we get around to some of the
HoME CotW I'll have read enough so that I won't just be scratching the
noodle in befuddlement.

Greg
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"Calvin"
> I wonder if this two-volume study is going a bit too far. Maybe
> Christopher was right when he said, "[TH]'s significance for Middle-
> earth lies in what it would do, not in what it was." (HoMe VI,
> Foreword)

That might be a bit too dismissive of the book, if you ask me. TH is like
Bombadil: they might not fit in all that well with the rest of the Middle
Earth saga, but they certainly give it a nice flavor.
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On Jul 7, 11:55 pm, "Gregory Hernandez" <gregr... DeleteThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:
> "Calvin" (wrote):
> > I wonder if this two-volume study is going a bit too far. Maybe
> > Christopher was right when he said, "[TH]'s significance for Middle-
> > earth lies in what it would do, not in what it was." (HoMe VI,
> > Foreword)
>
> That might be a bit too dismissive of the book, if you ask me. TH is like
> Bombadil: they might not fit in all that well with the rest of the Middle
> Earth saga, but they certainly give it a nice flavor.

I guess I was just trying to rationalize not bothering with the
two-volume study of The Hobbit. The Annotated Hobbit is quite
enough for me, I hope.

But of course The Hobbit is a much beloved part of the whole
thing, and I remember with nostalgia my first encounter
with it in 1966.

As for Bombadil, he is absolutely essential, in my opinion, and
I never agree with those people, such as Peter Jackson, who
think it's ok to leave him out of the story. Though there is much
more to Bombadil than this, he is the only being in Middle-earth
who is not affected by the Ring, and that adds something to the
story that should never be omitted, in my opinion.
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On Jul 8, 2:02 pm, "Gregory Hernandez" <gregr... DeleteThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:
> I know I'm a semi-heretic in liking Peter Jackson's adaptation of LotR, but
> I agree that it would have been really cool if they could have made room for
> Tom Bombadil in the films. Didn't I read somewhere that Peter Jackson never
> explicitly states that the encounters with Bombadil DIDN'T happen, just that
> it isn't shown in the movies? I wonder: does anyone know if they actually
> did make any attempt at filming the sequences with Bombadil?

In the DVD Extended Edition of The Two Towers some of
Bombadil's words are given to Treebeard when Merry and
Pippin become entangled in the roots of a malevolent tree,
but that's all that I've ever heard about.

I like the extended editions fairly well, but not the theatrical
versions, because the EE's restore many very good scenes
that got cut out of the theatrical versions for various reasons,
such as length and pacing. Some examples:

FotR: brief scene of the Sackville Bagginses;
Frodo and Sam seeing the Elves passing going west;
camping near Bilbo's stone trolls;
Sam's attempts at poetry;
Galadriel giving gifts to the Fellowship

TT: longer Emin Muil sequence, including
Sam's use of rope given by Galadriel;
Merry and Pippin drinking Ent draughts
Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's final scene with Faramir

RotK: the Voice of Saruman scene, and Saruman's end;
Merry's scene after Gandalf takes Pippin away to
Minas Tirith;
spectacular skulls scene in Paths of the Dead;
Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas meeting the ships,
killing Peter Jackson playing cameo;
Faramir and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing;
Frodo and Sam marching with the Orcs in Mordor;
Sam seeing star in Mordor (actually a Silmaril)

There are many more, but those are some off the top
of my head. I could never watch the chopped-up theatrical
versions again.
 >> Stay informed about: CoH reading order, redux 

I know I'm a semi-heretic in liking Peter Jackson's adaptation of LotR, but
I agree that it would have been really cool if they could have made room for
Tom Bombadil in the films. Didn't I read somewhere that Peter Jackson never
explicitly states that the encounters with Bombadil DIDN'T happen, just that
it isn't shown in the movies? I wonder: does anyone know if they actually
did make any attempt at filming the sequences with Bombadil?
 >> Stay informed about: CoH reading order, redux 

Gregory Hernandez wrote:
> I know I'm a semi-heretic in liking Peter Jackson's adaptation of LotR, but
> I agree that it would have been really cool if they could have made room for
> Tom Bombadil in the films.

Tolkien himself stated that if there was no time to cover
something properly it would be better to omit it completely.

Didn't I read somewhere that Peter Jackson never
> explicitly states that the encounters with Bombadil DIDN'T happen, just that
> it isn't shown in the movies?

Pippin is not familiar with Old Forest when Merry talks
about it in TT. Also Treebeard quotes some of Bombadil's
lines at least in extended version.

Morgil
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I got lucky in that the theatre we went to had a showing of the extended
editions of the first two films, followed by the premiere of the third
movie. Quite a marathon, but worth it!

Greg
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On Jul 8, 9:22 pm, Troels Forchhammer <Tro... DeleteThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>
wrote:
> ... (I do enjoy
> the films, though there are a handful of scenes where I cringe
> whenever I see them) ...

Having nothing to add to the discussion of Bombadil at
present, this tangent is taken:

The movies (extended editions only) do have an attraction
for me, but I don't see them as representing Tolkien,
except maybe in rare brief glimpses. I see them as sort
of a parallel world, not really Middle-earth, and a parallel
story, not told by Tolkien; as if they were histories being
written by a different and oddball historian, not the one
who originally recorded them. But the oddball historian
does have some access to the bare facts, so that the
history remains interesting, though he injects so much of
his own filler, where no filler is needed, and is so limited
by his own lack of subtlety, that I have to inject more
into the characters than he does, in order to make them
work for me. My main gripes about the oddball historian
are in the facts which he changes, and thus lessens the
historical story. Though many may disagree with this, I
do like the music that accompanies this version of history,
and the music is the main reason for my seeing the movies
multiple times, not just to hear it, but because Howard
Shore makes Peter Jackson's work better than it actually
is, in my opinion.
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