 |
|
|
|
Related Topics:
| What's up - Where have all the flowers gone? Daryl And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him. He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them. (Leonard Cohen) (remove nopax for e-mail)
Help in identifying a C. S. Lewis story - My may be totally wrong, but I was told a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away that C. S. Lewis wrote a story with roughly the following plot: A space traveller is marooned on a primitive planet. The not
Help in identifying a C. S. Lewis story - My may be totally wrong, but I was told a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away that C. S. Lewis wrote a story with roughly the following plot: A space traveller is marooned on a primitive planet. The not
Studies in Words - the murder of a word, happens in many C. S. Lewis, _Studies in Words_. I think CSL would have to at least chuckle at this: by Nate Thompson in In honor of the Academie The have..
grassroots Lewis condordance online? - <font course what would be really nice would be an online <font all of Lewis' known writings, including the letters, stray <font and..
|
|
|
Next: Need to find Lewis Quote
|
| Author |
Message |
External
Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 15
|
(Msg. 46) Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:39 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)
|
|
|
On 31 Jul 2003 04:00:33 GMT, darylgene.TakeThisOut@aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>> Johnson spamfree.TakeThisOut@nospam.com
>
>>Weird, you keep mentioning wonders beyond yourself, then you turn
>>around and insist that the ultimate reality has to be the way you
>>understand it and no other.
>
>Heaven knows why I am biting on this troll but:
>
>Reality is reality, ultimate or otherwise, it only exists in one way. It would
>be gross stupidity to assume it existed in a manner other than the way you
>understood it to exist.
>
>
It would also be gross stupidity to assume that everyone has a correct
understanding of that reality. And that is what I was pointing out.
In other words one should have enough humility to acknowledge he might
be mistaken about the ultimate nature of reality.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
|
| Back to top |
|
 | |
External
Since: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 35
|
(Msg. 47) Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
m.TakeThisOut@mooreeffoc.com wrote in message news:<151153ac89cbd11612c9cc897d6a822c.TakeThisOut@free.teranews.com>...
> If by Ideal Diet you mean some detailed menu that would suit everyone,
> then obviously there isn't any. But it's still worth talking about the
> common factors, common requirements, etc, and taking multiple vitamins.
> I think the latter is the sort of thing Lewis and others meant by
> Natural Law. The common (somewhat abstract) factors. Not 'everyone
> should eat limes' but 'everyone needs vitamin C'. The MDA, the Food
> Pyramid, and list of common poisions to avoid.
>
These examples are all too typical. RDA charts, for instance, are
compromises, designed for a hypothetical "average" person---there are
special purpose multivitamins sold for children, pregnant women, the
elderly, and so on. The food pyramid is a political diagram, designed to
balance the various special interests at the USDA. My medicine cabinet is
full of common poisons---to be taken as directed. General principles
for nutrition are a not-as-good substitute for a diet tailored to individual
needs.
This is exactly what Lewis *doesn't* believe about morality. He
believes in a quite specific list of rules which don't admit shading for
individual cases. Adultery is not permissible in his book just because
your spouse snores or because you have a rare and unexercised
capacity for love. To justify this rigidity, Lewis makes universalist
claims couched in the language of idealism. As an idealist myself---a
mathematician, in fact---I am not impressed by unsupported claims of
universality. If indeed Lewis ever made a serious attempt to justify his
claims, I have not come across it, though it must be admitted that I have
not read many of his explicitly Christian books.
-Michael Larsen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 145
|
(Msg. 48) Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 31 Jul 2003 17:21:46 -0700, larsen.DeleteThis@math.indiana.edu (Michael Larsen)
wrote:
>m@mooreeffoc.com wrote in message news:<151153ac89cbd11612c9cc897d6a822c.DeleteThis@free.teranews.com>...
>
>> If by Ideal Diet you mean some detailed menu that would suit everyone,
>> then obviously there isn't any. But it's still worth talking about the
>> common factors, common requirements, etc, and taking multiple vitamins.
>> I think the latter is the sort of thing Lewis and others meant by
>> Natural Law. The common (somewhat abstract) factors. Not 'everyone
>> should eat limes' but 'everyone needs vitamin C'. The MDA, the Food
>> Pyramid, and list of common poisions to avoid.
>>
>These examples are all too typical. RDA charts, for instance, are
>compromises, designed for a hypothetical "average" person---there are
>special purpose multivitamins sold for children, pregnant women, the
>elderly, and so on. The food pyramid is a political diagram, designed to
>balance the various special interests at the USDA. My medicine cabinet is
>full of common poisons---to be taken as directed. General principles
>for nutrition are a not-as-good substitute for a diet tailored to individual
>needs.
What convenient term may we use for whatever it was your sceptic did
believe in? Things that he said applied to all humans?
Mary >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 49) Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>Johnson spamfree DeleteThis @nospam.com writes:
>It would also be gross stupidity to assume that everyone has a correct
>understanding of that reality. And that is what I was pointing out.
>In other words one should have enough humility to acknowledge he might
>be mistaken about the ultimate nature of reality.
>
Humility has nothing to do with it, a person must base their actions and value
judgments on their best understanding of reality. You might mentally consider
that that 600 foot drop at your next step is illusion but you don't base your
actions on it.
>he might
>be mistaken about the ultimate nature of reality.
>
One would not expect the Author to be mistaken about the nature of His work. I
have sufficient evidence to convince me that I understand who that is. Hedging
one's bets is not always the best strategy.
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 50) Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 5:12 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>m@mooreeffoc.com writes:
>I see a kind of heirarchy or algorithm in the headings of the 813.
Everyone has a heirarchy, implicit if not explicit, and the two often collide.
Which one reason I don't think the 813 represents anything other than an
attempt to sell the circus to the proletariat. People don't USE it, it is not
the way they run their lives.
> I don't think we acquire the proper
>>standard until we become "a new creation". Perhaps I am overly Pauline but I
>>mistrust the guidance of "the flesh".
>That sounds more like disagreeing with me than with Lewis.  He said
>it had to be taught -- in the nursery and by the poets.
Has to be taught by the Holy Spirit, it doesn't take otherwise.
>I think the word 'natural' is being used in quite different senses here.
>
????
Natural man? Lewis defined nature as "that which goes on by itself". As opposed
to supernatural (spiritual). IIRC we were deciding if the moral code proper to
a man was "wired in" or if it was revealed. My position is (and has been) that
the 813 is inferior to the Sermon on the Mount, that it is more productive to
bring someone into a proper relationship with the Trinity than try to convince
them that they OUGHT to do thus and so.
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 15
|
(Msg. 51) Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 01 Aug 2003 01:26:34 GMT, darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>>Johnson spamfree.DeleteThis@nospam.com writes:
>
>
>
>>It would also be gross stupidity to assume that everyone has a correct
>>understanding of that reality. And that is what I was pointing out.
>>In other words one should have enough humility to acknowledge he might
>>be mistaken about the ultimate nature of reality.
>>
>
>Humility has nothing to do with it, a person must base their actions and value
>judgments on their best understanding of reality.
This doesn't negate the need for humility.
Nor is it applicable to my point. Did I say one shouldn't have beliefs
or try to understand reality?
>You might mentally consider
>that that 600 foot drop at your next step is illusion but you don't base your
>actions on it.
>
So? Again, this doesn't apply to what I was talking about. Now if I
was a nihilist.....
>>he might
>>be mistaken about the ultimate nature of reality.
>>
>
>One would not expect the Author to be mistaken about the nature of His work. I
>have sufficient evidence to convince me that I understand who that is. Hedging
>one's bets is not always the best strategy.
>
Admitting one may be mistaken is not hedging one's bets. Nor does it
mean one can't hold to a belief system.
Who knows, with a little humility, a believer may be open to letting
that Author reveal the errors in his understanding?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 65
|
(Msg. 52) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 31 Jul 2003 03:57:00 GMT, darylgene.RemoveThis@aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>Not the law Annie, it is the Word that must be internalized.
 All morality comes from one center. And people have always looked
to that center.
Conscience. I use that word in the affirmative as good conscience-
the impulse to do good beyond what the ego tells one to do. It's
very often used in the negative as that bad feeling one gets when one
hasn't followed a principle- one wouldn't know about conscience unless
one had done something wrong. Probably a combination. Then Christ
tells me, Be perfect. Fully enlightened conscience. Sigh...
Since my confrere et soeur left the garden, I'm bound to be
colorblind and tone deaf, and my conscience is bound to fail me. CSL:
humans know what they ought to do, but though they try, they don't do
it. And I had better meditate on that fact day and night. The
faithful conscience is increasingly better informed by grace.
[BTW: Christian churchmen have been as failing in good conscience as
any other people. And more's the pity. I'm re-reading _Witchcraft_ by
Charles Williams. Now, there is a troubling study in conscience.]
All the best,
Ann<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 53) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>Johnson spamfree.TakeThisOut@nospam.com writes:
>This doesn't negate the need for humility.
>
You, however, picked the wrong target, Ann's humility has more provence in this
group than you could hope to match.
>Nor is it applicable to my point. Did I say one shouldn't have beliefs
>or try to understand reality?
You were implying that it was improper to share or promote the view of reality
one holds in deference to views of reality one doesn't hold.
>>You might mentally consider
>>that that 600 foot drop at your next step is illusion but you don't base
>your
>>actions on it.
>>
>So? Again, this doesn't apply to what I was talking about. Now if I
>was a nihilist.....
If you are convinced someone is in peril because of a mistaken view of reality,
aren't you almost obligated to dissuade them from that view?
>Who knows, with a little humility, a believer may be open to letting
>that Author reveal the errors in his understanding?
Physician, heal thyself
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 54) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>AJA ahnemann RemoveThis @microdsi.net writes:
>Conscience. I use that word in the affirmative as good conscience-
>the impulse to do good beyond what the ego tells one to do.
> It's
>very often used in the negative as that bad feeling one gets when one
>hasn't followed a principle- one wouldn't know about conscience unless
>one had done something wrong.
Impulse, feeling ... I see it more as a clash of values or a settling in of
empathy after we have wronged someone. We know how we feel and we (sometimes
too late) can put ourselves in another's shoes. But if our values are distorted
our conscience is warped as well, a good deal of "The Great Divorce" pretty
much touches on that.
The ability to empathize also varies a great deal. I don't see our conscience
responding to some ideal principle and I would never, never, never confuse it
with the "voice" of the Holy Spirit.
>Then Christ
>tells me, Be perfect. Fully enlightened conscience. Sigh..
Hierarachy in proper order, values aligned as they should be, the conscience is
still active but it is at peace as well. God's in His heaven and all's right
with the world.
>Since my confrere et soeur left the garden, I'm bound to be
>colorblind and tone deaf, and my conscience is bound to fail me.
CSL
Yet notre pere remains to color our world and sing to us.
You KNOW He hasn't gone Ann, there are whispers in the wind and you likely hear
them better than I.
>humans know what they ought to do, but though they try, they don't do
>it. And I had better meditate on that fact day and night. The
>faithful conscience is increasingly better informed by grace.
By grace and by love. But I don't think humans really know what they ought to
do. That is the reason their values are off the mark (as in Divorce).
>[BTW: Christian churchmen have been as failing in good conscience as
>any other people.
We still need Christ, we still fail, we aren't perfect yet. Why would anyone
expect otherwise?
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 15
|
(Msg. 55) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
It would be helpful, Daryl, if you addressed the points I was actually
making rather than what you imagine their implications to be. I
refuse to be put in the position of trying to defend something I never
said.
On 02 Aug 2003 05:06:14 GMT, darylgene DeleteThis @aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>>Johnson spamfree DeleteThis @nospam.com writes:
>
>>This doesn't negate the need for humility.
>
>>
>
>You, however, picked the wrong target, Ann's humility has more provence in this
>group than you could hope to match.
>
So? I care little about anyone's "provence" in this group.
>>Nor is it applicable to my point. Did I say one shouldn't have beliefs
>>or try to understand reality?
>
>You were implying that it was improper to share or promote the view of reality
>one holds in deference to views of reality one doesn't hold.
>
Not at all. Here is what I said:
"It would also be gross stupidity to assume that everyone has a
correct understanding of that reality. And that is what I was
pointing out. In other words one should have enough humility to
acknowledge he might be mistaken about the ultimate nature of
reality."
The implications you are drawing exist only in your head.
>>>You might mentally consider
>>>that that 600 foot drop at your next step is illusion but you don't base
>>your
>>>actions on it.
>>>
>>So? Again, this doesn't apply to what I was talking about. Now if I
>>was a nihilist.....
>
>If you are convinced someone is in peril because of a mistaken view of reality,
>aren't you almost obligated to dissuade them from that view?
>
This doesn't negate the need for humility in recognizing one's own
views about the ultimate nature of reality might be mistaken.
>>Who knows, with a little humility, a believer may be open to letting
>>that Author reveal the errors in his understanding?
>
>Physician, heal thyself
>
A great example of how not to dissuade someone else.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 26, 2003
Posts: 15
|
(Msg. 56) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 01 Aug 2003 02:12:13 GMT, darylgene DeleteThis @aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>>I see a kind of heirarchy or algorithm in the headings of the 813.
>
>Everyone has a heirarchy, implicit if not explicit, and the two often collide.
>Which one reason I don't think the 813 represents anything other than an
>attempt to sell the circus to the proletariat. People don't USE it, it is not
>the way they run their lives.
Not sure I get your reference to the circus, but you make a good point
about the usefulness of the 813. Very strange to even think of
someone using such an algorithm for settling serious moral issues.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 57) Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 11:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>Johnson spamfree.TakeThisOut@nospam.com writes:
>>You, however, picked the wrong target, Ann's humility has more provence in
>this
>>group than you could hope to match.
>>
>So? I care little about anyone's "provence" in this group.
So why should this group care about what you say?
>Not at all. Here is what I said:
>"It would also be gross stupidity to assume that everyone has a
>correct understanding of that reality.
Your first comment was addressed to Ann assuming that she lacked humility and
wanted to impose her view of reality on everyone; having long experience with
her, and knowing the absurdity of such a supposition, I responded.
> In other words one should have enough humility to
>acknowledge he might be mistaken about the ultimate nature of
>reality."
It depends on the source of the knowledge.
>If you are convinced someone is in peril because of a mistaken view of
>reality,
>>aren't you almost obligated to dissuade them from that view?
>This doesn't negate the need for humility in recognizing one's own
>views about the ultimate nature of reality might be mistaken.
We ought to be humble before God who, after all, laid the foundations of the
universe, what I don't understand is how you expect this humility to be
expressed vis-a-vis the discussions we have here.
>>>Who knows, with a little humility, a believer may be open to letting
>>>that Author reveal the errors in his understanding?
>>
>>Physician, heal thyself
>>
>
>A great example of how not to dissuade someone else.
To advise them to apply their own recommendations to themselves? Seems
reasonable to me.
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 145
|
(Msg. 58) Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:58 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 02 Aug 2003 20:21:36 GMT, darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
The troll who signs as 'Johnson spamfree.DeleteThis@nospam.com' writes:
/snip/
>> In other words one should have enough humility to
>>acknowledge he might be mistaken about the ultimate nature of
>>reality."
>
>It depends on the source of the knowledge.
And of course it's impossible to be mistaken about the source of the
knowledge.
Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 261
|
(Msg. 59) Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
> m.RemoveThis@mooreeffoc.com writes:
>>It depends on the source of the knowledge.
>
>And of course it's impossible to be mistaken about the source of the
>knowledge.
nope, but you learn.
Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
(remove nopax for e-mail)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 844
|
(Msg. 60) Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:34 am
Post subject: Re: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
m.DeleteThis@mooreeffoc.com wrote:
> On 27 Jul 2003 01:58:56 GMT, darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
>
> /snip troll/
>
> >Many people don't have a sense that killing plants is wrong...Ditto
>
> The Jainas and Hindus I know say the ideal thing is to live on milk and
> truits, things given voluntarily with no killing of either plants or
> animals. (Eat the fruit, plant the seed. Many fruits seem designed for
> this. They give the food to induce the animals to carry their seeds (and
> deposit some fertilizer around them) ).
>
> When that's not practical, they work up the food chain in order of how
> much pain or emotional suffering it causes the creature. Plants are less
> sensitive, animals more. Unsprouted seeds like rice nearly non-feeling.
> Etc.
>
> Also search 'frutarian'.
>
> Mary
>
> There's also collateral damage, damage to worms by digging potatoes,
> etc. So some avoid root vegetables.
What do they think about pulling up weeds to help the crops grow? >> Stay informed about: Colorblind or Tonedeaf Consciences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
|
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Profile
Private Messages
Log in
