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CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir

 
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none35

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Since: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 12



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:25 am
Post subject: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir
Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)

The Departure of Boromir
Book III,
Chapter 1
The Two Towers

This being the first chapter of "The Two Towers", any discussion on the
title itself can be thrown in here.


This chapter starts and ends with Aragorn trying to find out what
happens, and to figure out what course of action to take. Everything he
has done so far, and in that day in particular, seems to have been
"ill-fated." This despair continues in him until he decides to pursue
and save Merry and Pippin, for then his heart "speaks clearly" to him.

The chapter begins when Aragorn follows the hobbit's footprints, and
sits on the same high seat that Frodo sat upon, but he sees nothing that
would help him. One small note: Tolkien informs us that Aragorn would
(if he could) have seen an eagle slowly descending, far in the North. [1].

Suddenly he hears cries and orcs in the woodlands below, and then the
horn of Boromir blows, and 'smote the hills.' [2] Aragorn rushes down
the hill headlong ready to do battle with the cry "Elendil!"

When he found Boromir, he was sitting against a tree with orcs lying
dead all around him. (Cf. the film version of this event, with
fighting). Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.) He tells him to
not worry about Minas Tirith. [3]

Aragorn now weeps, perplexed, trying to figure out what to do now that
everything he had been striving for had ended in ruin. By this time,
Legolas and Gimli silently creep through the trees as if they are
hunting (i.e. moving by stealth, in silence.) They had fought, all
Legolas' arrows were spent. They quickly decide that they don't have
time to bury Boromir, and they must try to rescue Merry and Pippin.

They search the orc bodies, finding the knives of Merry and Pippin. They
find goblin soldiers who were bigger than orcs [4] and had differnt
swords, and a white hand on their sheilds, and an "S" rune on their
helms. They quickly guess that this means Saruman. [5]

They lay Boromir in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
feet, and place him in the river, letting him go. The book says rumour
has it that his body was washed out into the Great sea. [6]

They go back to their camp, deduce that Sam and Frodo have left for
Mordor, and then follow their own way, going after the orcs who captured
Merry and Pippin. [7]

Aragorn remarks that all three races will remember this chase.


Comments/Questions


[1] Is this eagle Gwaihir, who was going to pick Gandalf up from the
mountain after he killed the Balrog? What do we know about which days
these events occured on?


[2] This was not meant to be taken literally, but what else could "smote
the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"

[3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?

[4] Aragorn makes a simple mistake here, by not asking Boromir about
whether Frodo was taken by the orcs or not.


[5] What does a "black field" look like?

[6] "he will not return from mountain and sea." What is the
significance of this? There might be some poem or words from which this
phrase is derived, bt what could it be?


[7] Whenever I think of this trampling in the wild, I always imagine
this Bible verse about the Messiah, "A broken reed He will not break,
and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully
bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He
has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:1-4)" The contrast
with orcs is obvious. As I have said before, some of these verses must
have meant something to Tolkien, if he was literate in Christianity.


Other comments, go right ahead.

Hasan

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stephen2

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Since: Feb 11, 2004
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:33 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <none.DeleteThis@nospam.org> wrote:

: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?

Swart means dark skinned.

Stephen

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heldenib

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Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 269



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:27 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hashemon Urtasman <none.RemoveThis@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
 > The Departure of Boromir

Thank you Hasan, for very well 'facilitating' this chapter! This may
also be a good moment to remark, that I noticed in
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://parasha.maoltuile.org/," target="_blank">http://parasha.maoltuile.org/,</a> that the next 2 chapters are as yet not
accounted for.
 >
 > This being the first chapter of "The Two Towers", any discussion on the
 > title itself can be thrown in here.
 >
At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it
are dominated by Othanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of
Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; (...). But the
author of this, is not accounted for.
 >
 > Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
 > to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
 > and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.)

Yes, that is how I read it too. But IMO it is ambiguously worded. One
could argue even that 'few had gained such a victory over so many
orcs'.

 > They lay Boromir

(in a boat)

 > in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
 > feet, (snip)

Strange custom.

 > [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
 >
Though I will leave this question to the native speakers, my
dictionary says something like: darkish, blackish. Zwart means black,
in Dutch, German: schwarz.

 > Other comments, go right ahead.

A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
or spoken?
B) Interesting, that Sauron 'does not use white'.
C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly hurt" to the dead
Boromir? (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
D) Do Aragorn and Legolas make up the nice song for Boromir on the
spot? Usually in LOTR it is said or suggested the song was made
*later*.

Henriette<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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cbdunkerson

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Since: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:11 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:cbo3hv$1di0$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...

 > Swart means dark skinned.

Yes, but there has always been some question of 'how dark' Tolkien intended
it to mean. He seems to have used it for a whole range of pigmentations.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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graeme

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.c
om>, Hashemon Urtasman <none.TakeThisOut@nospam.org> writes
 >They search the orc bodies, finding the knives of Merry and Pippin. They
 >find goblin soldiers who were bigger than orcs [4] and had differnt
 >swords, and a white hand on their sheilds, and an "S" rune on their
 >helms. They quickly guess that this means Saruman. [5]

[ snip ]

 >[5] What does a "black field" look like?

In heraldry the "field" is the background, upon which all the other
patterns and symbols are displayed. In the blazon (the written
description of the arms) the first word gives the colour of the field.
In this case, it would be "sable a hand argent".
--
Graeme Thomas<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mightymartianc1

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Since: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 678



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:20 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 28 Jun 2004 04:27:15 -0700,
Henriette <heldenib RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
 > or spoken?

He's probably well on the way to thinking of himself as god of Middle Earth

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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sparchimedes99

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hashemon Urtasman <none.RemoveThis@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
[snip good summary and points]
I've got some questions as far as funeral rites are concerned. Why is Aragorn
so sure that the Great River will carry the funeral boat? Does he know
about Ulmo's power in the river? Is there any special significance attached
to sending the body to the ocean? Dwarves cremate their dead; Elves'
bodies fall into ashes at once; Men of Gondor build tombs;
other Men (and Hobbits) bury their dead. Any other ideas?

Archie
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john25

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Since: Jan 02, 2004
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Hashemon Urtasman" <none.DeleteThis@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 >
 > [2] This was not meant to be taken literally, but what else could "smote
 > the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"
 >
'Smote' is past tense of 'smite', strike. I thought that the word means
that the sound of the horn echoed from the surrounding hills.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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chriskern99

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:27 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 28 Jun 2004 03:33:19 GMT, stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com posted the following:

 >In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <none.DeleteThis@nospam.org> wrote:
 >
 >: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
 >
 >Swart means dark skinned.

However, the definition of "dark" varies depending on the usage of the
term. English writings have identified Mediterranean peoples as
"swart" or "swarthy", for instance.

-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jet

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Since: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 106



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:27 pm
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Chris Kern" <chriskern99.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ldsvd016pug98o038d4an2smth0u9q9kbh@4ax.com...
 > On 28 Jun 2004 03:33:19 GMT, stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com posted the following:
 >
  > >In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <none.TakeThisOut@nospam.org> wrote:
  > >
  > >: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
  > >
  > >Swart means dark skinned.
 >
 > However, the definition of "dark" varies depending on the usage of the
 > term. English writings have identified Mediterranean peoples as
 > "swart" or "swarthy", for instance.


And the Gypsys (Romanies) have always been described
as "swarthy".


--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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cbdunkerson

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Since: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:36 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Henriette" <heldenib RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.0406280327.2f9f46b2@posting.google.com...

 > At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
 > "Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
 > second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it
 > are dominated by Othanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of
 > Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; (...). But the
 > author of this, is not accounted for.

Descriptive Bibliography covers the origin of that note in detail;
"4 January 1954 Rayner Unwin sends Tolkien a rough draft of the note about
TT and RK that follows the text at the end of FR."

"23 February 1954 ... He also returns, rewritten, the note for the last page
of FR."

"19 March 1954 Proofs of the note on pronunciation and final note for FR,
and of other pages with blocks, are sent to Tolkien."

"29 March 1954 Tolkien returns the sent him on 19 March, finds an error in
the Ring verse (bk. 1, ch. 2), corrected before publication."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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stephen2

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Chris Kern <chriskern99.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
: On 28 Jun 2004 03:33:19 GMT, stephen.RemoveThis@nomail.com posted the following:

:>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <none.RemoveThis@nospam.org> wrote:
:>
:>: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
:>
:>Swart means dark skinned.

: However, the definition of "dark" varies depending on the usage of the
: term. English writings have identified Mediterranean peoples as
: "swart" or "swarthy", for instance.

: -Chris

Do they use "swart" to describe Mediterranean peoples? I have seen
"swarthy" used, but not "swart". I believe Tolkien only uses "swarthy"
when describing humans, and only uses "swart" when describing Orcs. I
do not know if there is any significance to that.

Stephen
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theswain1

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Since: Jun 15, 2004
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"swart" not only refers to the color, but can also indicate
one's moral condition: malignant, baleful, evil, a connotation
that swarthy often lacks.

stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com wrote:
 >
 > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Chris Kern <chriskern99.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
 > : On 28 Jun 2004 03:33:19 GMT, stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com posted the following:
 >
 > :>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <none.TakeThisOut@nospam.org> wrote:
 > :>
 > :>: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
 > :>
 > :>Swart means dark skinned.
 >
 > : However, the definition of "dark" varies depending on the usage of the
 > : term. English writings have identified Mediterranean peoples as
 > : "swart" or "swarthy", for instance.
 >
 > : -Chris
 >
 > Do they use "swart" to describe Mediterranean peoples? I have seen
 > "swarthy" used, but not "swart". I believe Tolkien only uses "swarthy"
 > when describing humans, and only uses "swart" when describing Orcs. I
 > do not know if there is any significance to that.
 >
 > Stephen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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stephen2

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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Archie <sparchimedes99am DeleteThis @mail.ru> wrote:
: Hashemon Urtasman <none DeleteThis @nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
: [snip good summary and points]
: I've got some questions as far as funeral rites are concerned. Why is Aragorn
: so sure that the Great River will carry the funeral boat? Does he know
: about Ulmo's power in the river? Is there any special significance attached
: to sending the body to the ocean? Dwarves cremate their dead;

Dwarves only cremate their dead in rare circumstances. They prefer
to bury their dead in stone tombs.

: Elves' bodies fall into ashes at once;

Only Feanor did that. He was special.

Stephen
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aelfwina

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Posts: 225



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:03 am
Post subject: Re: CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Hashemon Urtasman" <none RemoveThis @nospam.org> wrote in message
news:HcMDc.575666$Ar.574611@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 > The Departure of Boromir
 > Book III,
 > Chapter 1
 > The Two Towers
  >>
(snip summary)
 > [1] Is this eagle Gwaihir, who was going to pick Gandalf up from the
 > mountain after he killed the Balrog? What do we know about which days
 > these events occured on?
 >
I have always thought it was Gwaihir, but have never been sure whether it
was before or after he picked up Gandalf
 >
 > [2] This was not meant to be taken literally, but what else could "smote
 > the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"

I always think of "smote" as "striking a mightly blow", which would mean to
me that the sound of the horn was *really* loud.
 >
 > [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
 >
 > [4] Aragorn makes a simple mistake here, by not asking Boromir about
 > whether Frodo was taken by the orcs or not.

Yes. But caught in the emotion of the moment, an understandable one.
 >
 >
 > [5] What does a "black field" look like?

"Field" is herald-speak for background color on a coat of arms or device.
(actually it should be "sable", but JRRT avoided French words mostly)
 >
 > [6] "he will not return from mountain and sea." What is the
 > significance of this? There might be some poem or words from which this
 > phrase is derived, bt what could it be?
 >
 >
 > [7] Whenever I think of this trampling in the wild, I always imagine
 > this Bible verse about the Messiah, "A broken reed He will not break,
 > and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully
 > bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He
 > has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:1-4)" The contrast
 > with orcs is obvious. As I have said before, some of these verses must
 > have meant something to Tolkien, if he was literate in Christianity.
 >
 >
 > Other comments, go right ahead.

One more: as beautiful as Boromir's funeral song was, I still think it was a
bit of a mistake to stand about singing while the Orcs are getting further
and further away with their hobbits.

 >
 > Hasan
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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