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tom

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Since: Nov 01, 2003
Posts: 324



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:38 pm
Post subject: new DT7 ending theory
Archived from groups: alt>books>stephen-king (more info?)

spoilers of course






















Ok, so everyone seems to be going on the assumption that Roland is sent back
in time at the end, to redo his quest. However, this makes many people
wonder (myself included) what to make of him suddenly having the horn of eld
instead of having left it behind at jericho hill. well how about this
idea--- the door roland goes through at the end is not a door back to the
past, but a door into a different roland in a slightly different world in
another part of the multiverse (another level of the tower). this roland did
stop to pick up the horn of eld, thats why he has it. I know this will
either be ignored, completely misunderstood, or both, but I figured what the
heck.

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amif

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Since: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 516



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"deathboy" <tom.TakeThisOut@deathboy.com> wrote in message
news:5r-dnR4GyOx6rf7cRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
 > spoilers of course
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Ok, so everyone seems to be going on the assumption that Roland is
 > sent back
 > in time at the end, to redo his quest. However, this makes many people
 > wonder (myself included) what to make of him suddenly having the horn
 > of eld
 > instead of having left it behind at jericho hill. well how about this
 > idea--- the door roland goes through at the end is not a door back to
 > the
 > past, but a door into a different roland in a slightly different world
 > in
 > another part of the multiverse (another level of the tower). this
 > roland did
 > stop to pick up the horn of eld, thats why he has it. I know this will
 > either be ignored, completely misunderstood, or both, but I figured
 > what the
 > heck.

Actually, that's pretty much what I figured, also . . .

Have a great day!

Ami
"Does anybody else in here remember Vera Lynn? Remember how she said
that we would meet again some sunny day?" -- Pink Floyd, The Wall<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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jholstei

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Since: Nov 01, 2003
Posts: 9



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:53 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <2sh08oF1ko7e3U1 DeleteThis @uni-berlin.de>,
"Ami Fairchild" <amif DeleteThis @delphidude.com> wrote:

 > "deathboy" <tom DeleteThis @deathboy.com> wrote in message
 > news:5r-dnR4GyOx6rf7cRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
  > > Ok, so everyone seems to be going on the assumption that Roland is
  > > sent back
  > > in time at the end, to redo his quest. However, this makes many people
  > > wonder (myself included) what to make of him suddenly having the horn
  > > of eld
  > > instead of having left it behind at jericho hill. well how about this
  > > idea--- the door roland goes through at the end is not a door back to
  > > the
  > > past, but a door into a different roland in a slightly different world
  > > in
  > > another part of the multiverse (another level of the tower). this
  > > roland did
  > > stop to pick up the horn of eld, thats why he has it. I know this will
  > > either be ignored, completely misunderstood, or both, but I figured
  > > what the
  > > heck.
 >
 > Actually, that's pretty much what I figured, also . . .

It makes sense. This was one of two interpretations I took from the
ending. Either:

a) Roland has to save the Tower in every universe, or...

b) The quest for the Tower is necessary for the Tower's (Gan's)
continued existance. Similar to Douglas Adams argument about God, it is
the quest for the Tower which sustains the Tower's continued existance,
like an endless Moebius loop.

I like that Stephen King chose not to spell out the meaning of the
ending. I continue to ponder what exactly the ending means.

-Jeremy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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amif

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Since: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 516



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jeremy Holstein" <jholstei.DeleteThis@crocker.com> wrote in message
news:jholstei-C7E3BA.09530706102004@netnews.comcast.net...
 >
 > It makes sense. This was one of two interpretations I took from the
 > ending. Either:
 >
 > a) Roland has to save the Tower in every universe, or...
 >
 > b) The quest for the Tower is necessary for the Tower's (Gan's)
 > continued existance. Similar to Douglas Adams argument about God, it
 > is
 > the quest for the Tower which sustains the Tower's continued
 > existance,
 > like an endless Moebius loop.
 >
 > I like that Stephen King chose not to spell out the meaning of the
 > ending. I continue to ponder what exactly the ending means.

I agree. If he'd spelled it out, it wouldn't give us as much fun going
"Huh? What did he mean by *that*?" LOL!

Have a great day!

Ami
"Does anybody else in here remember Vera Lynn? Remember how she said
that we would meet again some sunny day?" -- Pink Floyd, The Wall<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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loki

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Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 196



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:37 am
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Ami Fairchild" <amif RemoveThis @delphidude.com> wrote in
news:2sjfpsF1kud6tU1@uni-berlin.de:

 > "Jeremy Holstein" <jholstei RemoveThis @crocker.com> wrote in message
 > news:jholstei-C7E3BA.09530706102004@netnews.comcast.net...
  >>
  >> It makes sense. This was one of two interpretations I took
from the
  >> ending. Either:
  >>
  >> a) Roland has to save the Tower in every universe, or...
  >>
  >> b) The quest for the Tower is necessary for the Tower's
(Gan's)
  >> continued existance. Similar to Douglas Adams argument
about God, it
  >> is
  >> the quest for the Tower which sustains the Tower's
continued
  >> existance,
  >> like an endless Moebius loop.
  >>
  >> I like that Stephen King chose not to spell out the meaning
of the
  >> ending. I continue to ponder what exactly the ending
means.
 >
 > I agree. If he'd spelled it out, it wouldn't give us as much
fun going
 > "Huh? What did he mean by *that*?" LOL!
 >
 > Have a great day!
 >
 > Ami
 > "Does anybody else in here remember Vera Lynn? Remember how
she said
 > that we would meet again some sunny day?" -- Pink Floyd, The
Wall
 >
 >
 >

For any author, this would probably be considered bad
writing...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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isobutane

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Since: Nov 03, 2003
Posts: 64



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:23 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory (spoilers) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

..>For any author, this would probably be c.onsidered bad
 >.writing...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
Actually, it mirrors King's views on Lord of the Flies...a good ending isn't an
ending at all, it's food for thought, reason to ponder. For those who don't
remember the reference, check "Low Men In Yellow Coats" after Bobby finishes
reading LOTF.

Speaking of low men, why don't Jake or Callahan see those black threads in
front of their eyes as they invade the Dixie Pig? Certainly they have the
taheen's attention. Or feel the backs of their eyes itch?

"LOST PET

We have lost our Black Lab Susannah Mio. We miss her very much. If found,
please return to the Dixie Pig. There will be a VERY LARGE REWARD."

Mark
The Catman
 >^..^<
isobutane.TakeThisOut@aol.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/mark_rosengarten" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/mark_rosengarten</a>
Owner/Coordinator of the Neko Ultraportable Solar Observatory
Fun WITH The Sun for Everyone!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tinyskier

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Since: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:02 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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   >>> I like that Stephen King chose not to spell out the meaning
 >of the
   >>> ending. I continue to ponder what exactly the ending
 >means.
  >>
  >> I agree. If he'd spelled it out, it wouldn't give us as much
 >fun going
  >> "Huh? What did he mean by *that*?" LOL!
  >>
  >> Have a great day!
  >>
  >> Ami
  >> "Does anybody else in here remember Vera Lynn? Remember how
 >she said
  >> that we would meet again some sunny day?" -- Pink Floyd, The
 >Wall
  >>
  >>
  >>
 >
 >For any author, this would probably be considered bad
 >writing...

Well, there's a difference between leaving an ending open to interpretation
without completely spelling things out, and leaving readers without a friggin'
clue as to what happened. I think this is the former.

I find this ending kind of annoying, though I usually love endings where it
leaves you with a couple of possiblities. Can't think of many books like that,
but the movies Vanilla Sky and Total Recall come to mind. Whatever you think of
the quality of the movies themselves, the endings were pretty cool. As opposed
to say, 2001, which left me slack-jawed, wondering what the fuck the purpose of
that was. I suppose if I read Clarke's book it'd be understandable, but the
movie is simply awful storytelling.

George

``Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we.'' - George W. Bush<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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none1

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Since: Jun 07, 2004
Posts: 34



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 > As opposed
 > to say, 2001, which left me slack-jawed, wondering what the fuck the
 > purpose of
 > that was. I suppose if I read Clarke's book it'd be understandable, but
 > the
 > movie is simply awful storytelling.
 >
 > George

2001 is awful storytelling? Depends on what you think a story is...
The images are the film - not the narrative.Without the images, the "story"
lasts about 3 minutes and is almost non-existent.
Look at it with open eyes, open mind and outside the restrictive narrative
box you are used to. Definitely of film of its time.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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hppybutchr

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Since: Nov 17, 2003
Posts: 166



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:24 am
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 >I like that Stephen King chose not to spell out the meaning of the
 >ending. I continue to ponder what exactly the ending means.
 >
 >-Jeremy

Its one of the few times he ever has, and I couldn't be more thankful. No
ending could hold up 30 years of expectations, and this one manages to please
so well, and leave things so perfectly justified to come to whatever conclusion
you: the reader want. My belief here, is -that- is what the Tower is meant to
infuse.

Art and imagination of various medium permeate throughout the tales. Gan is
the entity to which all art and imagination are built, this open ending, allows
for just that.

Couldnt have been happier with it!

~Jeremy
The Happy Butcher<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tinyskier

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Since: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:32 am
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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  >> As opposed
  >> to say, 2001, which left me slack-jawed, wondering what the fuck the
  >> purpose of
  >> that was. I suppose if I read Clarke's book it'd be understandable, but
  >> the
  >> movie is simply awful storytelling.
  >>
  >> George
 >
 >2001 is awful storytelling? Depends on what you think a story is...
 >The images are the film - not the narrative.Without the images, the "story"
 >lasts about 3 minutes and is almost non-existent.
 >Look at it with open eyes, open mind and outside the restrictive narrative
 >box you are used to. Definitely of film of its time.


Ah, well, personally, I think it's probably the most overrated film of all
time. I had to force myself to watch the last half of it, telling myself it HAD
to get better, but it never did. I'll give props to the special effects, which,
with the exception of the apeman things at the beginning still stand up well
against the latest FX. And I imagine it might have had more impact 35 years ago
or so, but it's just a snoozefest. The acting is terrible, particularly in the
'spaceport' or whatever they called it. There's huge chunks of the film where
all it does is show what at the time would have been neat futuristic stuff,
that doesn't advance the story one bit. The picture phone, the stewardess
clomping through the 'plane', the space module landing....landing...landing...I
go and have dinner, dessert and a cigar, then come back and it's STILL coming
down for a landing. The stuff at the end with the facial contortions and the
room and the fetus just doesn't make much sense. And yes, the story as a whole
is rather simplistic in the first place, so it shouldn't be too hard to get it
across.

Even the music is distracting, though I know that's because "Zarathustra" and
"Blue Danube" have been overused specifically because they were in this movie.

A director is a storyteller. If you're telling a story, it should at the very
least be decipherable. Although I don't care much for any of Kubrick's films
(Hey, now we're kinda on topic again!) with the exception of Full Metal Jacket,
at least you could tell what was happening in them.

But...a lot of people seem to like it for some reason that escapes me
completely.

George

``Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we.'' - George W. Bush<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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data311

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Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 3



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"deathboy" <tom.RemoveThis@deathboy.com> wrote in message
news:5r-dnR4GyOx6rf7cRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
 > spoilers of course
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Ok, so everyone seems to be going on the assumption that Roland is sent
back
 > in time at the end, to redo his quest. However, this makes many people
 > wonder (myself included) what to make of him suddenly having the horn of
eld
 > instead of having left it behind at jericho hill. well how about this
 > idea--- the door roland goes through at the end is not a door back to the
 > past, but a door into a different roland in a slightly different world in
 > another part of the multiverse (another level of the tower). this roland
did
 > stop to pick up the horn of eld, thats why he has it. I know this will
 > either be ignored, completely misunderstood, or both, but I figured what
the
 > heck.


Ok to me the ending was GREAT! One thing it did for me was keep it alive! I
don't belive that he will write further on the DT but it keeps the stories
in our minds never letting it truely end, and i love that fact!


Data<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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acetheta1

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Since: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 309



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:39 am
Post subject: Re: new DT7 ending theory [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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George Smith wrote:

  >>2001 is awful storytelling? Depends on what you think a story is...
  >>The images are the film - not the narrative.Without the images, the "story"
  >>lasts about 3 minutes and is almost non-existent.
  >>Look at it with open eyes, open mind and outside the restrictive narrative
  >>box you are used to. Definitely of film of its time.
 >
 >
 >
 > Ah, well, personally, I think it's probably the most overrated film of all
 > time. I had to force myself to watch the last half of it, telling myself it HAD
 > to get better, but it never did. I'll give props to the special effects, which,
 > with the exception of the apeman things at the beginning still stand up well
 > against the latest FX. And I imagine it might have had more impact 35 years ago
 > or so, but it's just a snoozefest. The acting is terrible, particularly in the
 > 'spaceport' or whatever they called it. There's huge chunks of the film where
 > all it does is show what at the time would have been neat futuristic stuff,
 > that doesn't advance the story one bit. The picture phone, the stewardess
 > clomping through the 'plane', the space module landing....landing...landing...I
 > go and have dinner, dessert and a cigar, then come back and it's STILL coming
 > down for a landing. The stuff at the end with the facial contortions and the
 > room and the fetus just doesn't make much sense. And yes, the story as a whole
 > is rather simplistic in the first place, so it shouldn't be too hard to get it
 > across.
 >
 > Even the music is distracting, though I know that's because "Zarathustra" and
 > "Blue Danube" have been overused specifically because they were in this movie.
 >
 > A director is a storyteller. If you're telling a story, it should at the very
 > least be decipherable. Although I don't care much for any of Kubrick's films
 > (Hey, now we're kinda on topic again!) with the exception of Full Metal Jacket,
 > at least you could tell what was happening in them.
 >
 > But...a lot of people seem to like it for some reason that escapes me
 > completely.

You're not alone. I have exactly the same opinion of the film.

The only Kubrick film I've ever truly enjoyed was _Doctor Strangelove_.
I laugh myself silly every time I watch it, and I've seen it over a
dozen times.


stePH
--
"A lion will exert himself to the utmost, even when entering the tiger's
den to throw baby rabbits off a cliff!" -- Moroboshi Ataru<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tinyskier

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Since: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:40 pm
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 >The only Kubrick film I've ever truly enjoyed was _Doctor Strangelove_.
 > I laugh myself silly every time I watch it, and I've seen it over a
 >dozen times.

That's one I haven't seen, I'll have to check it out, then. Haven't exactly
been scouring the shelves for the Kubrick stuff, you see....

George

``Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we.'' - George W. Bush<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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theonesixthsen

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Since: Nov 30, 2003
Posts: 46



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:11 am
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I think its interesting that someone brings up Vanilla Sky into the
discussion of the DT. I rented the special edition DVD of Vanilla Sky
when it came out for rent. If you watch some of the featurettes and
listen to some of the commentary, it becomes pretty apparent that
Cameron Crowe had no idea what the original movie was about. There was
a scene where papers are being lined up on teh floor and the second
unit director basically says that he has no idea what this scene means
in the context of the film. When Crowe is broached on the topic, he
basically says, "Well, it was in the original" The saving grace for
Vanilla Sky was a pretty killer performance by Tom Cruise, otherwise I
think Crowe would be taking a huge beating for that flick.

Moral of the story? Don't tell a story if you have no idea what you
are trying to say.

I cannot count the utter cheapness I felt when reading DT7. Eddie gets
killed pretty lamely. No blaze of glory. Nothing commersurate with the
depth of his character and how much time King spent on him. Does Eddie
die because it furthers the story? Or does Eddie die because at the
1/3 to 1/2 mark of the book, you need to start reducing the storyline
to something more managable. Hence Eddie died not for the sake of the
story, but for the sake of getting the story told in an economical
way. When Nick died in The Stand, that death meant something. There
was a point to it. The point was for Flagg's most formidable opponent
(arguably) would get eliminated and eventually force Larry to 'lead'
at some point. You felt bad when Nick died, you could see the buildup
of tension and its horrible conclusion. When Eddie died, it just
happened. Then Jake takes an equally lame death. Stephen Hunter said
it best once, "It's one thing to die to get the job done, but theres
no sense in just dying just to die."

I'm sorry but there are such writing techniques called building
tension and pacing that King discusses in On Writing. King doesn't
give us a 'story' with DT7, he gives us flat exposition. It's fucking
lazy.

Just as lazy as Roland having to do the whole damn thing over again
because he didn't want to pick up some horn.

This too is 'economical' King no longer has to explain what really
happens to Cort, Cuthbert and Alain in any detail. Yes, they all die,
but you never get the sense that their deaths equaled the time King
gave them in the series. No need to actually provide a true
'antagonist' for Roland to fight. Hey you can eliminate all flashbacks
to Roland's world and Jericho Hill and the fall of his civilization.

You know what would have been a decent ending? If Eddie, Susannah and
Jake sacrificed everything for Roland to get to the Tower. Then the
Crimson King could have given Roland passage at the cost of their
blood on the Tower's doorstep. To me, that would have true to the
characters and the story, the idea of Roland capping each of his Ka
Tet in the back of the head in his single minded pursuit of the Tower.

Would it have been that hard for King? To make the Tower a figurative
Moby Dick for Roland? And for as much as King loves this "Harry
Potter" homage, I think he fails to see the draw of the Harry Potter
stories. It's about an ordinary boy who becomes exceptional based on
his choices. That's its what we do, not what we are or what our legacy
is that defines us as people. It's Roland's choices that make him
tragic. Consider the first four DT stories

DT1 - Roland chooses the Man in Black over Jake.
DT2 - Eddie chooses to deny his addiction/ Susannah chooses to deny
her evil Janus
DT3 - Roland chooses to save Jake, cost be damned.
DT4 - Roland and Susan choose to love each other at an unbearable cost

Sacrifice. Regret. Consequences.

That's what develops a character. It's what makes you care about a
character. I still like to believe that a good story tries to
entertain but it also tries to make the reader consider a larger
question about the human condition.

I enjoyed almost everything in the first four books. But the ending to
DT7 is just plain fucking lazy in my book.
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endymion91

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Since: Mar 20, 2004
Posts: 50



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:18 am
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I've seen discussion of how minor it is for Roland to not have picked up the
horn. Don't know if this has been discussed and I missed it, but reading
the Browning poem at the end of the book, Roland has the horn when he gets
to the tower. So I assume the importance of the event is that SK didn't
just use the poem to inspire him, but wanted to stay true to it.

--
Dennis/Endy

http://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/

~Dancing us from darkest night is the rhythm of love
Powered on by the beating of hearts~ -XTC
--
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