Dark to Good

oops i read it too fast i guess and assumed it was dunedain with an r
 >> Stay informed about: Dark to Good 

On 24 Sep 2005 08:30:59 -0700, "Mumakil Trainer"
<shagrat_13 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> posted the following:

>You're sure it's drunedain and not dunedain?

No. Druedain and Dunedain are two different things, and there's no
such thing as Drunedain.

-Chris
 >> Stay informed about: Dark to Good 

detectivedelspooner wrote:

> Last night I was thinking... what if Gondor or Rohan could make good
> orcs? Or use balrogs for the good side? Would it be possible? For the
> balrogs, you probably couldn't because they seem to be evil by
> themselves. And the orcs were created by torturing elves, and made by
> the dark powers so I doubt that someone like Legolas could make a good

Tolkien posed himself this self-same issue quite a few times, if what
Christopher Tolkien says in HoME is true. Apparently Tolkien decided that
the Orcs and the Druedain - you remember them, the woses? - were related,
and regarded the other as renegades.

That would make "good orcs" a certainty.

Tolkien would've been driven by theological argument to make that -
Catholicism doesn't allow for someone to cut himself off completely from
divine grace, except by personal decision, and as the orcs were twisted by
one of the Powers, they had made none of those decisions themselves.
> orc or an orc at all. Then I got to thinking about the other beasts
> Sauron used and his allies used, like the Mumakil and the mountain
> trolls. The mountain trolls were really impartial, they'd kill anything
> that got in their way. The mumakil are good for transportation and you
> could probably use them for good. Wouldn't it be neat if Aragorn and
> Theoden could order everyone to kill the orcs and the guys on the
> mumakils, but not the mumakils? Maybe they could put Gondorian and
> Rohan armies on the Mumakil's back, and they could march to the black
> gate. Do you think they could knock it down? What do you think?


--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Dark to Good 

In article <MPG.1d9f1ebe1255b921989883.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>,
the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm says...
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:49:33 +1200 in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Tux
> Wonder-Dog favored us with...
> > Tolkien posed himself this self-same issue quite a few times, if what
> > Christopher Tolkien says in HoME is true. Apparently Tolkien decided that
> > the Orcs and the Druedain - you remember them, the woses? - were related,
> > and regarded the other as renegades.
>
> I can remember several variant decisions by Tolkien on the origin of
> Orcs. I don't remember what you say about Orcs and Druedain, but I
> don't think it's accurate to say he "decided" that as though it were
> a final decision. He made a lot of decisions on doubtful points, then
> weeks or months or years later he decided them again, differently. We
> don't have anything definitive (except what he published) because,
> given the way he worked, there was always the possibility of anything
> unpublished getting radically changed yet again.

It is not that JRRT 'decided', but rather he wrote what 'some
(unfriendly folk) thought' about their relatedness. The Eldar did not
agree.

This is probably what is being referred to:
"To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth
must have bred the Orcs from such a stock [the Druedain] the Eldar
answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred
Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his
Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as
is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." But some thought,
nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for
their special enmity. Orcs and Drugs each regarded the other as
renegades. [Author's note.]"
Endnote 5 in The Druedain, UT
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark to Good 

Tar-Elenion wrote:

> In article <MPG.1d9f1ebe1255b921989883 DeleteThis @news.individual.net>,
> the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm says...
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:49:33 +1200 in rec.arts.books.tolkien, Tux
>> Wonder-Dog favored us with...
>> > Tolkien posed himself this self-same issue quite a few times, if what
>> > Christopher Tolkien says in HoME is true. Apparently Tolkien decided
>> > that the Orcs and the Druedain - you remember them, the woses? - were
>> > related, and regarded the other as renegades.
>>
>> I can remember several variant decisions by Tolkien on the origin of
>> Orcs. I don't remember what you say about Orcs and Druedain, but I
>> don't think it's accurate to say he "decided" that as though it were
>> a final decision. He made a lot of decisions on doubtful points, then
>> weeks or months or years later he decided them again, differently. We
>> don't have anything definitive (except what he published) because,
>> given the way he worked, there was always the possibility of anything
>> unpublished getting radically changed yet again.
>
> It is not that JRRT 'decided', but rather he wrote what 'some
> (unfriendly folk) thought' about their relatedness. The Eldar did not
> agree.
>
> This is probably what is being referred to:
> "To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth
> must have bred the Orcs from such a stock [the Druedain] the Eldar
> answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred
> Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his
> Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as
> is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." But some thought,
> nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for
> their special enmity. Orcs and Drugs each regarded the other as
> renegades. [Author's note.]"
> Endnote 5 in The Druedain, UT

That is indeed the text I was referring to. (FWIW - shameless plug -, I
used that as the basis for some of my stories, stories which grew out of
personal fanfic which were never good enough, but which I developed into my
Alpha Centaurian conworld. The Lakhabrech - the Free Blood - were
descended from Hunts of Nu Ineya Khara-Ansha - the People of the Sacred
Hunt - who went "feral" and decided to live their own lives.

Many thanks.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Dark to Good