The Day After - a minor nitpick

"William George Ferguson" <wmgfrgsn DeleteThis @newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:5vfan11v48l0gr3qp765ursdhk2g40im07@4ax.com...
> Kitty says to Nightcrawler that she's reminded of the Old Testament (the
> Passover to be precise). Kitty would never call it the Old Testament
> (she's very much a practicing Jew). Nightcrawler might say 'the Old
> Testament' but she would say 'the scripture' or 'the holy books' or 'the
> Torah', or some such.
>
So you are saying that we need more Jewish writers?
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

"William George Ferguson" <wmgfrgsn RemoveThis @newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:5vfan11v48l0gr3qp765ursdhk2g40im07@4ax.com...
> Kitty says to Nightcrawler that she's reminded of the Old Testament (the
> Passover to be precise). Kitty would never call it the Old Testament
> (she's very much a practicing Jew). Nightcrawler might say 'the Old
> Testament' but she would say 'the scripture' or 'the holy books' or 'the
> Torah', or some such.

As noted over on comicboards.com/xmb/ , Kitty is A) Not especially observant
and B) Is talking to some she knows is much more devout in his Christianity
than she is in Judaism, and C) she is quite well read, so she used the term
her friend is more familiar for his convenience.

Same way as even if I'm a brilliant chemist, I'm still more likely to talk
about "aspirin" to a layman than "acetate of salicylic acid" because THEY'LL
understand better than I do.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

On 11 Nov 2005 20:16:06 -0800, "prestorjon" <prestorjon DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:

><<Kitty says to Nightcrawler that she's reminded of the Old Testament
>(the
>Passover to be precise). Kitty would never call it the Old Testament
>(she's very much a practicing Jew).>>
>
>I might quibble with that characterization. We know that when the Xmen
>encountered Dracula she was faithful enough to hurt him with her star
>of david, but I don't think we've seen anything to imply that she's
>particularly religious.

Refer to the original Brood saga. Kitty was very concerned because, after
being jerked around, possessed, and comafied, she had lost track of the
days, and no longer knew what day was the Sabbath (any rabbi, of course,
could have assured her that there was provision in the scripture for that,
not specifically alien mud-dauber wasps, but generally forces outside your
control physically preventing you from keeping the Sabbath).

Kitty wasn't in-your-face about it, and we never saw her or had reference
to her going to temple (doesn't mean she didn't, of course), but she was
at the least far more observant than, say, Willow Rosenberg. Beside the
above scene form fairly early in her X-Men career, the Days of Future
Passed storyline started because the X-Men were, for all intents and
purposes, in D.C. accompanying Kitty while she spoke for her grandmother
(I guess the sliding timeline would make it her great-grandmother now) at
a Holocaust memorial.

Her father was not only observant but orthodox. That was one of the plot
points in the running sidebar story of the breakup and divorce of Kitty's
parents.

I don't know that we 'need more Jewish writers'. I'd more likely say
Jewish editors, or at least more paying attention to detail.

And equally of course, it isn't picking on Judaism, comics seem to be
equal opportunity in getting details wrong, whether it's Judaism,
Catholocism, Islam, Buddhism, or whatever.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

<<Refer to the original Brood saga. Kitty was very concerned because,
after
being jerked around, possessed, and comafied, she had lost track of the
days, and no longer knew what day was the Sabbath >>

Fair enough. Never read the Brood Saga. My point was that since then
I haven;t seen a lot ot indicate that she's observant. I only ever
recall seeing her at services on special ocassions, and I don't recall
any evidence that she's attempting to keep kosher. Compare this to
Nightcrawler who clearly has a very active religious life.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

I still say they're bunnies.

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses
And what's with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies, bunnies
It must be bunnies...
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn RemoveThis @newsguy.com> wrote in
news:5vfan11v48l0gr3qp765ursdhk2g40im07@4ax.com:

> Kitty says to Nightcrawler that she's reminded of the Old Testament
> (the Passover to be precise). Kitty would never call it the Old
> Testament (she's very much a practicing Jew). Nightcrawler might say
> 'the Old Testament' but she would say 'the scripture' or 'the holy
> books' or 'the Torah', or some such.

Unless she's saying that for the sake of clarity since most everyone she
knows is Christian.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

<rja.carnegie.DeleteThis@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1131886390.352169.191170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > There's also a major problem with THE DAY AFTER in the handling of
> > > genetics.
> > >
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > >
> Depending who you talk to, all mutant powers arise from one "X-Factor",
> which I think must be a particular gene or a small set of genes. I
> like to imagine that it involves an especially efficient metabolism of
> energy, because plenty of mutants have powers that don't make physical
> sense in terms of energy.

Not so much "efficient" as "in apparent complete violation of every law of
nature we understand"

> No X-Factor, no powers.
>
> But what happens if you clone a mutant? I ask because Mr. Sinister
> presumably is still around - House of M Sinister appeared in _Cable and
> Deadpool_ - and he's into cloning. He also had samples of lots of
> mutants' genes, but the Scarlet Witch maybe wiped out those, too.

If it had been a medically derived cancellation, I'd say they'd be intact,
but since it was done by Chaos Magic, or whatever the hell she actually
uses, I imagine any samples are also worthless now.

> In real genes, there's a lot of apparently non-functional DNA. The
> idea of real-world gene therapy is to insert genes into chromosomes,
> either replacing what's there or adding on. Results are mixed so far,
> but I don't see this as impossible.

Except there may be something about the X_factor gene that is essentially
unreproducable. Some four-dimensional twist that might explain the power
sources used.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

<synsidar.RemoveThis@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
news:1131911357.920815.116150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Brian Doyle wrote:
> > <synsidar.RemoveThis@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1131826003.761531.136370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > William George Ferguson wrote:
> > > > Kitty says to Nightcrawler that she's reminded of the Old Testament
(the
> > > > Passover to be precise). Kitty would never call it the Old
Testament
> > > > (she's very much a practicing Jew). Nightcrawler might say 'the Old
> > > > Testament' but she would say 'the scripture' or 'the holy books' or
'the
> > > > Torah', or some such.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > I have a theory, it could be bunnies
> > >
> > > There's also a major problem with THE DAY AFTER in the handling of
> > > genetics.
> > >
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > >

> Before writers or fans can start claiming that the mutant genes are
> somehow different from normal genes, they have to show that they
> understand real-world genetics.

No they don't, they only have to understand how their own fantasy genetics
works. The real world of genetics is irrelevant in that respect.

> Remember that the non-mutant paranormals (e.g., Spider-Man) are somatic
> mutants; given the similarities in powers between the mutant and
> non-mutant paranormals, the mutations in, say, mitochondrial DNA
> ((MtDNA) between the two groups could be virtually identical.

They could, but they're not in the MU, where Sentinels can ID a single
mutant in a crowd, but would blip over Spider-Man because he doesn't have an
active X-factor.

> As far as procedures are concerned, restoring the deleted genes would
> be trivial, a non-issue in terms of plotting. The most Marvel Editorial
> could do is claim that the restored genes wouldn't work--but then why
> delete them?

Why not?

> The number of affected mutants is also a non-issue, since
> the bulk of them were and will remain non-entities; the number was just
> an attempt to shock. The only mutants that matter are the heroes and
> villains.

And where do they come from before they become heroes or villains? The
general population.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

Brian Doyle wrote:
> <rja.carnegie.RemoveThis@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1131886390.352169.191170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > > There's also a major problem with THE DAY AFTER in the handling of
> > > > genetics.
> > > >
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > >
> > Depending who you talk to, all mutant powers arise from one "X-Factor",
> > which I think must be a particular gene or a small set of genes. I
> > like to imagine that it involves an especially efficient metabolism of
> > energy, because plenty of mutants have powers that don't make physical
> > sense in terms of energy.
>
> Not so much "efficient" as "in apparent complete violation of every law of
> nature we understand"
>
> > No X-Factor, no powers.
> >
> > But what happens if you clone a mutant? I ask because Mr. Sinister
> > presumably is still around - House of M Sinister appeared in _Cable and
> > Deadpool_ - and he's into cloning. He also had samples of lots of
> > mutants' genes, but the Scarlet Witch maybe wiped out those, too.
>
> If it had been a medically derived cancellation, I'd say they'd be intact,
> but since it was done by Chaos Magic, or whatever the hell she actually
> uses, I imagine any samples are also worthless now.
>
> > In real genes, there's a lot of apparently non-functional DNA. The
> > idea of real-world gene therapy is to insert genes into chromosomes,
> > either replacing what's there or adding on. Results are mixed so far,
> > but I don't see this as impossible.
>
> Except there may be something about the X_factor gene that is essentially
> unreproducable. Some four-dimensional twist that might explain the power
> sources used.

Yeah, my bugbear... Perhaps you're thinking of thiotimoline? That
would probably mean that mutant powers draw energy from your body's
natural resources in the future which you may or may not get to have?
Or maybe from the natural body resources of all your possible mutant
descendants! Maybe all mutants in all time!

I dunno what to say after that (which may be more me than you). Wait,
yes I do, say it with me: "LETS ROCK!!!!"
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

synsidar DeleteThis @eudoramail.com wrote:
>
> The relevance of this info to Marvel's "No More Mutants"
> storyline is that the human genome is by no means limited in size or
> structure. Attempting to "fix" the genome in place would mean an
> end to human reproduction, an obviously ridiculous notion. The
> elasticity of the genome also means that correcting deletions is, in
> technological terms, trivial. As long as one has a map of the
> previously existing genes, all the researcher would have to do is
> assemble the DNA string or strings, choose a carrier mechanism, and
> insert the replacement string, rather like fixing a broken Tinker Toy
> device. The lengths one has to go to to suppose that Wanda made such a
> fix impossible (eliminating all existing samples of mutant genes;
> eliminating records) makes the supposition asinine, and forces a reader
> to think that Wanda was being manipulated by a much higher power, if
> not God Himself.

If we discard common sense for a moment, suppose the x-factor gene is
energetic /right there in the DNA/, never mind when being expressed as
proteins. Maybe it's an atomic-scale Cosmic Cube... Anyway, something
that provides a target for Wanda to hit.

Of course the X-Men have computer records of mutant genes; they can
synthesise it if it doesn't exist - and apparently it does exist
anyway, because enough of the X-Men do still have it. Although maybe
they can't synthesise it if it is a Cosmic Cube...

As for preventing future mutants, suppose she writes /into/ every human
gene, lots and lots of copies of the original Legacy Virus. Like
retroviruses that embed themselves into ordinary DNA and stay there,
not infecious but ubiquitous. Then, as soon as you make someone a
mutant, they contract Legacy symptoms and die. Nasty.
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

<rja.carnegie.DeleteThis@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1131994600.755284.122540@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Brian Doyle wrote:
> > <rja.carnegie.DeleteThis@excite.com> wrote in message
> > news:1131886390.352169.191170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > > > There's also a major problem with THE DAY AFTER in the handling of
> > > > > genetics.
> > > > >
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > > GENETICS BOMB!
> > > > >

> > Except there may be something about the X_factor gene that is
essentially
> > unreproducable. Some four-dimensional twist that might explain the power
> > sources used.
>
> Yeah, my bugbear... Perhaps you're thinking of thiotimoline?

Dr Asimov would be proud!

> That would probably mean that mutant powers draw energy from your body's
> natural resources in the future which you may or may not get to have?

Actually, that was Rachel's problem with the Phoenix Force.

> Or maybe from the natural body resources of all your possible mutant
> descendants! Maybe all mutants in all time!

I like to think that somewhere out there is a dimension where the heroes
have the precisely opposite powers to ours to balance it out. Professor
Xavier, who cancels psi powers by draining psionic energy; Fireman, who
releases the energy from molecules frozen by Bobby; Basilisk who can
neutralise any kinetic energy with his eye beams... and so on!

> I dunno what to say after that (which may be more me than you). Wait,
> yes I do, say it with me: "LETS ROCK!!!!"

Time to be Evil!!!!

Strangely, I feel better after that!
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

rja.carnegie.RemoveThis@excite.com wrote:
> synsidar.RemoveThis@eudoramail.com wrote:
> >
> > The relevance of this info to Marvel's "No More Mutants"
> > storyline is that the human genome is by no means limited in size or
> > structure. Attempting to "fix" the genome in place would mean an
> > end to human reproduction, an obviously ridiculous notion. The
> > elasticity of the genome also means that correcting deletions is, in
> > technological terms, trivial. As long as one has a map of the
> > previously existing genes, all the researcher would have to do is
> > assemble the DNA string or strings, choose a carrier mechanism, and
> > insert the replacement string, rather like fixing a broken Tinker Toy
> > device. The lengths one has to go to to suppose that Wanda made such a
> > fix impossible (eliminating all existing samples of mutant genes;
> > eliminating records) makes the supposition asinine, and forces a reader
> > to think that Wanda was being manipulated by a much higher power, if
> > not God Himself.
>
> If we discard common sense for a moment, suppose the x-factor gene is
> energetic /right there in the DNA/, never mind when being expressed as
> proteins. Maybe it's an atomic-scale Cosmic Cube... Anyway, something
> that provides a target for Wanda to hit.
>
> Of course the X-Men have computer records of mutant genes; they can
> synthesise it if it doesn't exist - and apparently it does exist
> anyway, because enough of the X-Men do still have it. Although maybe
> they can't synthesise it if it is a Cosmic Cube...
>
> As for preventing future mutants, suppose she writes /into/ every human
> gene, lots and lots of copies of the original Legacy Virus. Like
> retroviruses that embed themselves into ordinary DNA and stay there,
> not infecious but ubiquitous. Then, as soon as you make someone a
> mutant, they contract Legacy symptoms and die. Nasty.

I'm not averse to the idea of the human genome containing a genetic
bomb, something as simple as a protein complex that would initiate
immediate, unstoppable metabolic or neurological failure. I recently
suggested on r.a.c.m.u. that the Celestials could have inserted such a
bomb into the (mutant) human genome. They would have a way to eliminate
mutants or humans in general quickly, without any fuss.

I'm not sure how such a plot device could be used, though, without
having to rewrite the dialogue in THE DAY AFTER. Deletions are quite
different from genetic changes, even though the word "deletion" is
open to interpretation. Deletion of a single conserved site in a gene
can render the gene nonfunctional, even if the remainder of the gene is
intact. Still, if the merry mutants have genetic maps on file, the
scale of the deletion (parts of genes, entire genes) doesn't matter.
Sage's "Even the potential to become a
mutant has been excised from the human genome," is particularly bad
writing, because the sentence is meaningless. Taken at face value, that
would mean no more paranormals, because physical changes, even Peter
Parker's, require some genetic (somatic) changes. That's obviously
not the case, though, so Claremont is apparently attempting to say that
several genes have been erased (although Sage already said that) and/or
restrictions on changes to the genome are in place, which she
couldn't know. So, the sentence is just overreaching gibberish.

One thing is clear to me: Claremont's (Marvel's) plot device forces
a reader to believe that Wanda is being manipulated. She doesn't have
omniscience, so no matter how hard she wished to eliminate mutants, she
couldn't affect a gazillion things that she had *no idea* existed. To
suppose that her wish caused "n" number of things to happen turns
the story into something for five-year-olds who are entertained by
picture books. A curse on mutants to prevent them from expressing
powers is still the simplest approach I can think of to justify "No
more mutants," although that requires Wanda to invoke a higher power.
I don't see any way to rationalize the human genome containing alien
DNA or non-biological technology, although one could rationalize the
existence of quantum computers, utilizing bits of DNA, embedded in the
genome that access the energy the mutants wield. Such computers could
also regulate the access of energy by mutants (permit or deny), but
that would be different from the dialogue in THE DAY AFTER. Wanda (or
her controller) would have to know about them to be able to alter their
programming.

Reading about the human genome is interesting, because the actual
contents are so different from what many people probably assume they
are. How many people think that the genome is some nearly pristine
construction, with a fixed length, fixed number of genes, etc., when
the genome is much more like a junkyard, accepting organic debris from
organisms that wander by and filled with junk that sometimes gets in
the way of the machinery. The nature of the genome is an argument
against Intelligent Design.

SRS
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick 

synsidar.TakeThisOut@eudoramail.com wrote:
>>Why not?
> [SNIP]
> Because the nature of the real-world human genome makes such deletions
> trivially easy to correct, unless a writer goes to the trouble of
> actually attempting to detail how the "mutant" genome is different.

((snipped your explanation of how real-world scientists would insert the gene.))

I'm think though, so what. That would be fine if they could take a former
mutant, figure out what they originally had, where in the gene sequence that
mutancy was expressed, figure out what was removed or moved, and figure out how
to reinsert that gene into the genome so that it would propogate throughout the
rest of the person's body to express itself 'right now' so they could get their
mutant powers back.

I think it's too much a hassle for the general population of mutants.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these
Trials, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
 >> Stay informed about: The Day After - a minor nitpick