Death and Elves.

"Crimson Castle" <removeDobvious_crimson_castle.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:mkJwb.26928$aT.11135@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they
get
> reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means?
>
> Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were
> "returned" ?


Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in
quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths
(The halls do not come across as a place of partying and get-togethers with
old friends, rather it is depicted as a more solitary place of quite
contemplation). Then after a variable amount of time has passed, (depending
on the whim of Mandos presumably), they can ask be re-embodied and return to
the world, whereupon they step out of the Halls of Mandos and find
themselves in Valinor (of course some elves might not wish to be
re-embodied, its their choice).

Now, once re-embodied and living in Aman, they could decide to take a ship
back to Middle-earth once more, however this doesn't seem to happen very
often, in fact Glorfindal is the only one known to have done this, so it is
likely to have been a very rare occurrence.
If you think about it, after dying horribly in all the strife of
Middle-earth, you would probably choose to leave it to its fate, as you
would have had enough, esp. in the third Age with so many elves leaving
anyway.

An interesting thing I found out recently, is that apparently even Men go to
the Halls for a while, before shunting off this mortal coil to go 'where
elves know not'.

Douglas
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In article <bpvs83$hjl$1@titan.btinternet.com>, Douglas Eckhart
<douglas.eckhart DeleteThis @btinternet.com> says...
>
> "Crimson Castle" <removeDobvious_crimson_castle DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:mkJwb.26928$aT.11135@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> > Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were
> > "returned" ?
>
>
> Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in
> quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths
> (The halls do not come across as a place of partying and get-togethers with
> old friends, rather it is depicted as a more solitary place of quite
> contemplation). Then after a variable amount of time has passed, (depending
> on the whim of Mandos presumably), they can ask be re-embodied and return to
> the world, whereupon they step out of the Halls of Mandos and find
> themselves in Valinor (of course some elves might not wish to be
> re-embodied, its their choice).

Tolkien seems to me to have been feeling his way towards the idea that
true and sincere contrition was necessary before an Elvish fea could
leave Mandos. Once an Elf had sincerely repented of his or her mistakes
and evil deeds and returned to a state of grace (as it were), he or she
could depart. In a way, they are their own gaolers until they see fit to
release themselves -- and this is harder than it might sound. Can you
imagine Feanor ever truly repenting of what he did? Although Feanor is a
special case; Tolkien remarked of him in a letter that he was 'referred
to the One' although why this was done to Feanor and not Morgoth is
anyone's guess. It's an interesting notion of Purgatory being about
abasement of ego, pride and so forth. Note that Finrod and Glorfindel,
two noble Elves who sacrificed themselves to save others, seem to have
been restored to grace and re-embodied fairly quickly.

I suspect that an Elf not wanting to be re-embodied would be a falling-
away from Elvish 'right nature': Elves were 'designed' to be in the
world, and even Miriel eventually re-inhabited her body. Finwe gave up
his right to be re-embodied in return for this boon (even Miriel
eventually came to want to exercise her skills and 'live' again).

Honest repentance as a means of returning to Good features as a theme in
several places, although usually the character *fails* to do so: Melkor
after his imprisonment, Sauron (an interesting case: he tried to repent
but couldn't bring himself to submit to the Valar because of his fear
and pride, and so eventually fell back into evil ways), Saruman when
Gandalf offers him a chance, Gollum before Sam calls him a 'sneak.'
Tolkien called it a 'trembling point' where the character *might* have
chosen a different path. An exception to the negative trend is Boromir,
who redeemed himself defending Merry and Pippin and 'died well.'
--
Matthew
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:05:06 GMT,
Crimson Castle <removeDobvious_crimson_castle.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When Elves die, and their spirits returns back to Middle-Earth, do they get
> reborn via the womb again or are they returned through another means?
>
> Did Tolkien have any Elven characters in his works who died and were
> "returned" ?

Not all Elves return to Middle Earth upon re-embodiment. It really depends
on where they were from to begin with. If they were High Elves, then upon
death they were re-embodied in Aman, otherwise they returned to Middle
Earth.

As to how they were re-embodied, that conception changed. Originally
Tolkien thought they were reborn in their young. Later, as I recall, the
conception that the Valar were actually involved in the re-embodiment arose.

As to an example of a re-embodied Elf, there is Glorifindel.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @) or mightymartianca.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca
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"Douglas Eckhart" <douglas.eckhart.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bpvs83

> Their spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they reside for a while in
> quite solitude, perhaps contemplating the events that led to their deaths

Thank you everyone for responding so nicely. I have a problem remembering a
lot of the terms and names used and therefore I made my question rather
vaguely to avoid offending anyone.

I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead Elves
could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits would be unable
to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name right.

I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go to
Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then?
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Quoth "Crimson Castle" <removeDobvious_crimson_castle.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> in
article <xN3xb.28263$aT.15477@news-server.bigpond.net.au>:
> I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead
> Elves could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits
> would be unable to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name
> right.

Hmm. Actually, I'd guess that you remember that from either
_Morgoth's Ring_ or from my FAQ: I'm pretty sure it's not in _The
Silmarillion_ as published. (Well, from my FAQ or some other
online(?) resource, but most other Tolkien information sites that
I've seen don't go into quite the degree of detail on these issues
that mine does.)

> I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call
> to go to Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then?

I think that Feanor probably would heed the call, actually: he
rebelled against the Valar, but after he died he may have had a bit
more perspective. Also, if he realized that the choice was between
Mandos and his mortal enemy Morgoth, I think he'd choose Mandos
without hesitation. (On the other hand, Feanor's spirit was strong
enough that he could probably have refused both summons and wandered
the world alone.)

But all those arguments are basically moot: there's at least one
direct statement that Feanor would be held in Mandos until the end of
the world, so that makes it pretty clear that he went there.

Steuard Jensen
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"Crimson Castle" <removeDobvious_crimson_castle.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:xN3xb.28263$aT.15477@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go
> to Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then?

Fëanor may have despised the Valar, including Mandos, but he utterly
hated and detested Morgoth. But who knows? If it were purely a choice for
a slain Elf between Mandos and Morgoth, then Fëanor's choice to go to Mandos
so as to avoid Morgoth may have been his first act of humility on the road
to redemption?

Karasu.
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"Crimson Castle" <removeDobvious_crimson_castle RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
message
>
> I remember reading from the Silmarillion that the spirit of the dead Elves
> could refuse the call of Mandos - and if so - their spirits would be
unable
> to resist the call of Melkor - hope I got the name right.
>
> I guess someone like Feanor was an Elf who would not heed the call to go
to
> Mandos... and probably he would join Melkor then?
>
>
All Elves heard the call, I believe.
I think the call you're referring to where Elves might refuse, was directed
towards Elves that never wandered West or learned about the Valar.
When they died they might feel a natural urge to go to Mandos but might not
having no knowledge of him.
I don't think that an Elf like Feanor who has seen/met/talked to/(had lunch
with?) Mandos would resist.
And Steuard has mentioned the quote about the final fate of Feanor.
So if an Elf refused this would be unnatural and wrong.
Tolkien said that these spirits who refused would be harmful in some ways to
Man.
I always thought that Tolkien was trying to explain what Ghost were in his
mythology.
In Tolkiens early drafts there were spirits, leprechauns,fairies and all
kinds of mystical beings.
I wish he didn't drop it all in his later writings.
Oh well.

T.A.
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