Duty and Destiny

Pardon me, I seem to have dropped a couple of lines in hitting "send".
They're corrected below.

Emerald at elfmailwithoutspam.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.invalid wrote on 3/26/04 11:09
AM:

 > In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's duty and
 > fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of good vs. evil.
 > (Yes, of course, we know that. Only framing my question here.) The
 > drive/need/willingness to wear the mantle of Duty and/or Destiny, pursuing
 > them against the odds, regardless of personal sacrifice, seems the most
 > salient feature shared by epic "good guys". If you will, this willingness
 > is what makes them the good guys, even develops their goodness into
 > greatness.
 >
 > Is it equally a truism that JRRT's "bad guys" become bad because of their
 > unwillingness to accept the concepts of Duty and Destiny? Their
 > unwillingness to play the cards originally dealt them by The Hand of Life?
 > It would seem so to me. Probably a manifestation of the mythos underlying
Christianity.
 >
 > Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?

--
Emerald Elbereth

A Place Where Emeralds Grow
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Emerald wrote:
 >
 > Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?

If "start" means "start-of-creation", I don't think so. Melkor
seems jealous very early, but I believe even he was created good.

If "start" means "when we first meet him or her", Gollum comes to
mind. As well as the goblins and Orcs. But Gollum stands out
because of the hope that he will be redeemed and end up good.

--
Glenn Holliday holliday.RemoveThis@acm.org<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Emerald" <elfmailwithoutspam.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:BC89C0FD.16A3A%elfmailwithoutspam@bellsouth.net.invalid...




<snip>

   > > > Is it equally a truism that JRRT's "bad guys" become bad because of
their
  > > unwillingness to accept the concepts of Duty and Destiny? Their
  > > unwillingness to play the cards originally dealt them by The Hand of
Life?
  > > It would seem so to me. Probably a manifestation of the mythos
underlying
 > Christianity.
  > >

  > > Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
 >
 > --
 > Emerald Elbereth
 >

Gandalf sez " Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so"


Alan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Emerald" <elfmailwithoutspam.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:BC89BFDD.169DD%elfmailwithoutspam@bellsouth.net.invalid...
 > In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's duty and
 > fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of good vs. evil.

Duty yes, but I don't think that "destiny" is as big a deal, and I
certainly don't think them as closely interconnected with each
other as you seem to imply.

Some people (like Turin Turambar) had dark dooms upon them.
In those case there'd be nothing wrong with trying to fight
against your perceived "fate".

Also check out Ulmo's words to Tuor in "Unfinished Tales". Ulmo
seems to represent a breach in the walls of Doom, a "light where
darkness is decreed".

Aris Katsaris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Emerald Elbereth wrote:
 >In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's duty and
 >fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of good vs. evil.
 >(Yes, of course, we know that. Only framing my question here.) The
 >drive/need/willingness to wear the mantle of Duty and/or Destiny, pursuing
 >them against the odds, regardless of personal sacrifice, seems the most
 >salient feature shared by epic "good guys".
It seems that there is some confusion between Duty and Destiny here.
 > ... If you will, this willingness is what makes them the good guys,
Not sure. Sauron was most probably willing to fulfill his "Duty" of bringing
order to Middle-Earth.

 > even develops their goodness into greatness.
Agreed (but weaklings are hard to find in Tolkien's world - even Butterbur
with his soft belly volunteers to help the Resistance as far as he can).

 >Is it equally a truism that JRRT's "bad guys" become bad because of their
 >unwillingness to accept the concepts of Duty and Destiny?
Mmm. First and foremost Tolkien was a _Catholic_ writer. Destiny
is most likely absent from his books, being replaced and augmented
with Providence.

Tolkien's bad guys (except the mysterious race of Orcs) become "bad guys"
because they do evil and they mean evil. No more, no less.
 > ...Their
 >unwillingness to play the cards originally dealt them by The Hand of Life?
That's class conscience and 'know your place'
[...]
 >Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
No. {The Orcish conundrum notwithstanding}
Even Melkor (as described in temporal terms in the Ainulindale) was
not evil from "the beginning".

Archie

P.S. I know at least 3 NG Regulars who are likely to comment on your post
much better than me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Glenn Holliday <holliday RemoveThis @acm.org> wrote:
: If "start" means "when we first meet him or her", Gollum comes to
: mind. As well as the goblins and Orcs. But Gollum stands out
: because of the hope that he will be redeemed and end up good.

By the time we "meet" Saruman he is evil. Likewise Grima.

Stephen
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Alan Reynolds at alanandlouise.TakeThisOut@rochford78.freeserve.co.uk wrote on 3/26/04
12:15 PM:

 >
 > "Emerald" <elfmailwithoutspam.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
 > news:BC89C0FD.16A3A%elfmailwithoutspam@bellsouth.net.invalid...
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > <snip>
 >
   >>>> Is it equally a truism that JRRT's "bad guys" become bad because of
 > their
   >>> unwillingness to accept the concepts of Duty and Destiny? Their
   >>> unwillingness to play the cards originally dealt them by The Hand of
 > Life?
   >>> It would seem so to me. Probably a manifestation of the mythos
 > underlying
  >> Christianity.
   >>>
 >
   >>> Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
  >>
  >> --
  >> Emerald Elbereth
  >>
 >
 > Gandalf sez " Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so"
 >
 >
 > Alan
 >
 >
Yes, he does. Is there a general principle involved, would you say, in
their becoming evil (or for that matter, in what makes the heroic characters
heroic) as I have more or less suggested? A common etiology?

Emerald<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Aris Katsaris at katsaris DeleteThis @otenet.gr wrote on 3/26/04 1:13 PM:

 >
 > "Emerald" <elfmailwithoutspam DeleteThis @bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
 > news:BC89BFDD.169DD%elfmailwithoutspam@bellsouth.net.invalid...
  >> In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's duty and
  >> fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of good vs. evil.
 >
 > Duty yes, but I don't think that "destiny" is as big a deal, and I
 > certainly don't think them as closely interconnected with each
 > other as you seem to imply.
 >
 > Some people (like Turin Turambar) had dark dooms upon them.
 > In those case there'd be nothing wrong with trying to fight
 > against your perceived "fate".
 >
 > Also check out Ulmo's words to Tuor in "Unfinished Tales". Ulmo
 > seems to represent a breach in the walls of Doom, a "light where
 > darkness is decreed".
 >
 > Aris Katsaris
 >
 >
Thanks, I will. As yet, I haven't read "Unfinished Tales".

Emerald<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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the softrat at softrat DeleteThis @pobox.com wrote on 3/26/04 1:29 PM:

 > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:09:17 -0500, Emerald
 > <elfmailwithoutspam DeleteThis @bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
  >>
  >> Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
 >
 > The closest would be Melkor/Morgoth who became 'bad' very, very early
 > in the timeline of Tolkien's universe (during the Creation). No other
 > creatures did: they were corrupted by Melkor.

Yes, Melkor fits my hypothesis rather well, I think. Tell me this: would
you say that those corrupted by Melkor had an actual choice, or did they not
have the power to choose?

Emerald<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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  > >Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
 > No. {The Orcish conundrum notwithstanding}
 > Even Melkor (as described in temporal terms in the Ainulindale) was
 > not evil from "the beginning".
 >
 > Archie
 >
 > P.S. I know at least 3 NG Regulars who are likely to comment on your post
 > much better than me.

Long time lurker here, just delurking for a bit to chip with this
conversation, a Tolkien fan - but I do stand to be corrected here.
Isn't there a bit in the Silmarilion, where Eru tells Melkor that
there is nothing that he can do that doesn't ultimately fit in with
his (meaning Eru's) over all plan ? It occurs fairly early on - and
I think that's the general gist, if not quoted correctly.

Probably been debated, but doesn't that have implications for destiny
overall ? Meaning it's not really Melkor's fault that he turned out as
he did as such and what about Feanor ?

Also, not wanting to go off topic for the thread, but a side question
(before I go back to lurking , but if that quote that I gave above
was almost correct - then why did Sauron, or indeed any of the bad
guys in Tolkien's world act the way they did ? They must have known
that at the end of all things, anything done in Arda would have been
fairly transient in the grand scheme of things.

Enjoying the posts in the group, just my two pennies - back to lurking
!

Cheers,

Jon<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:14:58 -0500, Emerald
<elfmailwithoutspam.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
 >
 >Yes, Melkor fits my hypothesis rather well, I think. Tell me this: would
 >you say that those corrupted by Melkor had an actual choice, or did they not
 >have the power to choose?
 >
They had the power to choose, as did Melkor himself. Arien *could*
have been a balrog, but she chose not to be.

the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand. -- Steven
Wright<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jchomer RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk (Jon) wrote in message news:<bc3c22c4.0403271113.4077409 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
   > > >Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?
  > > No. {The Orcish conundrum notwithstanding}
  > > Even Melkor (as described in temporal terms in the Ainulindale) was
  > > not evil from "the beginning".
  > >
  > > Archie
  > >
  > > P.S. I know at least 3 NG Regulars who are likely to comment on your post
  > > much better than me.
 >
 > Long time lurker here, just delurking for a bit to chip with this
 > conversation, a Tolkien fan - but I do stand to be corrected here.
 > Isn't there a bit in the Silmarilion, where Eru tells Melkor that
 > there is nothing that he can do that doesn't ultimately fit in with
 > his (meaning Eru's) over all plan ? It occurs fairly early on - and
 > I think that's the general gist, if not quoted correctly.
 >
 > Probably been debated, but doesn't that have implications for destiny
 > overall ? Meaning it's not really Melkor's fault that he turned out as
 > he did as such and what about Feanor ?

Is this the quote?

"...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath
not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my
despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument
in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not
imagined." And a couple of paragraphs on:
"And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thought of thy mind,
and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary
to its glory."

I took this to mean that, while whatever Melkor or anyone else does is
their choice, Eru will take their choices/actions and work them into
the overall plan. I don't recall anyone in all of Tolkien's corpus
acting like automata, except near the end of LoTR when he wrote about
some in Sauron's army acting bereft of will (but there he makes a
point of saying the men fought on)when the Ring/Sauron were destroyed.
 >
 > Also, not wanting to go off topic for the thread, but a side question
 > (before I go back to lurking , but if that quote that I gave above
 > was almost correct - then why did Sauron, or indeed any of the bad
 > guys in Tolkien's world act the way they did ? They must have known
 > that at the end of all things, anything done in Arda would have been
 > fairly transient in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, you'd think they'd have enough sense to figure out that they
can't fight God. But since they were prideful and arrogant enough to
rebel in the first place, they are going to be too proud to admit they
screwed up and ask God to take them back.
 >
 > Enjoying the posts in the group, just my two pennies - back to lurking
 > !
 >
 > Cheers,
 >
 > Jon

Aw, come back little lurker, come back! <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In message <news:bc3c22c4.0403271113.4077409@posting.google.com>
jchomer DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk (Jon) enriched us with:
 >
 > Isn't there a bit in the Silmarilion, where Eru tells Melkor that
 > there is nothing that he can do that doesn't ultimately fit in
 > with his (meaning Eru's) over all plan ?

Almost - I suppose you mean this:

"And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of
thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of
the whole and tributary to its glory."

The meaning of this is exemplified in Eru's words to Ulmo:
" And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how
here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath
made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter
cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of
thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and
the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and
fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire
nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the
height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists;
and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these
clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom
thou lovest.'"
from the /Ainulindale/.

 > Probably been debated, but doesn't that have implications for
 > destiny overall ? Meaning it's not really Melkor's fault that he
 > turned out as he did as such and what about Feanor ?

That is not the impression I get. My impression is that Free Will is
not limited by this, but that the actions of Evil ultimately will only
serve to heighten the glory of Creation.

 > why did Sauron, or indeed any of the bad guys in Tolkien's world act
 > the way they did ? They must have known that at the end of all
 > things, anything done in Arda would have been fairly transient in the
 > grand scheme of things.

I'm not sure that I can express myself coherently on this, but
basically I think that Evil must remain inexcplicable. In Tolkien's
universe Evil is basically equivalent to the rebellion against Eru; and
in that rebellion lies immanent the belief that the rebel can disregard
or override Eru's will.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

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