Duty and Destiny

Matthew Bladen wrote:

> Sauron and Saruman seem to fall for more or less the same reason: a
> desire to bring about what they believe to be the 'greater good' by
> whatever means are necessary - in other words, interposing their own
> judgement between Eru and his creations.

I think the "by whatever means necessary" is key to heading down the
path of evil in Tolkien's mythos. Sauron wanted order -- not a bad thing
in itself, but was willing to enslave the world to accomplish it.

Saruman (originally) and Gandalf were sent to ME to effect Sauron's
downfall -- also a good thing. Saruman's fall began when he was willing
to match force with force. Eventually, he ended up desiring power in and
of itself.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:09:17 -0500, Emerald
<elfmailwithoutspam DeleteThis @bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:

 >In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's duty and
 >fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of good vs. evil.
 >(Yes, of course, we know that. Only framing my question here.) The
 >drive/need/willingness to wear the mantle of Duty and/or Destiny, pursuing
 >them against the odds, regardless of personal sacrifice, seems the most
 >salient feature shared by epic "good guys". If you will, this willingness
 >is what makes them the good guys, even develops their goodness into
 >greatness.
 >
 >Is it equally a truism that JRRT's "bad guys" become bad because of their
 >unwillingness to accept the concepts of Duty and Destiny? Their
 >unwillingness to play the cards originally dealt them by The Hand of Life?

That's an interesting thought, but I think it's too harsh to say they
become "bad guys." Frodo could have declined the Quest without loss
of honor, though that he accepted it and did his best to complete it
earned him great honor indeed.

There is that little duel of sayings between Gimli and Elrond when the
Fellowship sets off, in which I understand Elrond to be saying that
there is leeway and that no one (save Frodo) is bound to complete the
quest or go any further than his heart wishes. Gimli is a little more
inflexible, not understanding, perhaps, that too tight a commitment to
Duty can break someone and cause more harm than good.

Too, members of the Fellowship were offered the chance to stay in
Lorien rather than to continue on, and had any done so (aside from
Frodo and Aragorn, who each had something to do), no one would have
thought the less of them; that they all chose to go on led to great
deeds and honor for them all.

Certainly, though, it is as you say for the good guys -- that they go
on because they perceive it is right to do so, and so, if successful,
earn great honor and achieve great things.

 >Is there a character in the Tolkien universe who simply started out bad?

No, not even Melkor. But with him it wasn't Duty or Destiny, but an
attempt to create something outside of Iluvatar's will:

  "'...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played
  that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter
  the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall
  prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more
  wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

  "Then...Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret
  anger...."

Now, if he had just talked out that secret anger....

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:


 > " And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how
 > here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath
 > made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter
 > cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of
 > thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and
 > the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and
 > fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire
 > nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the
 > height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists;
 > and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these
 > clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom
 > thou lovest.'"
 > from the /Ainulindale/.

I have always thought this one of the most beautiful and hopeful
passages in Tolkien's writings.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

in <4bb40450.0403271730.59358a2.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>,
zett <yzetta.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> enriched us with:
 >
 > jchomer.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk (Jon) wrote in message
 > news:<bc3c22c4.0403271113.4077409.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>...
  >>

<snip>

  >> Isn't there a bit in the Silmarilion, where Eru tells Melkor that
  >> there is nothing that he can do that doesn't ultimately fit in with
  >> his (meaning Eru's) over all plan ?
[...]
 >
 > Is this the quote?

<exclamation of irritation with self!>

I knew that there was another quotation, but I just couldn't find it when I
went looking - thanks, Zett.

 > I took this to mean that, while whatever Melkor or anyone else does is
 > their choice, Eru will take their choices/actions and work them into
 > the overall plan.

Exactly.

 > I don't recall anyone in all of Tolkien's corpus acting like automata,

There's a passage also in letter #153 (1954):
" To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in
my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way [...] to
make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free
Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is only operative
within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist,
it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever
betides: sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, [...]
So in this myth, it is 'feigned' [...] that He gave special
'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created
beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made
should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within
limits, and of course subject to certain commands or
prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did,
and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord',
these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban
against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men.
They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the
physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking'
the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins,
abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures
begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote
'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because
by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their
actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World,
which is God's and ultimately good.)"

And clearer (though not as detailed) in letter #181 (1956):
"... According to the fable Elves and Men were the first of
these intrusions, made indeed while the 'story' was still only
a story and not 'realized' ; they were not therefore in any
sense conceived or made by the gods, the Valar, and were
called the Eruhíni or 'Children of God', and were for the
Valar an incalculable element: that is they were rational
creatures of free will in regard to God, of the same
historical rank as the Valar, though of far smaller spiritual
and intellectual power and status."

As I read this all of the Ainur and the Eruhíni - including Morgoth and
other rebels against Eru - really did have a Free Will and the rebels
proceeded along the path of evil by their own choice. That Eru ascertains,
as per the quotation you gave, that he can and will turn even their
greatest evils to be for the betterment of his creation does not, IMO, bear
on the freedom of the original intend.

 > except near the end of LoTR when he wrote about some in Sauron's army
 > acting bereft of will (but there he makes a point of saying the men
 > fought on) when the Ring/Sauron were destroyed.

I suppose you're thinking of these passages from VI,4 'The Field of
Cormallen':
"... and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled,
doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their
hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove
them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its
will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of
their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.
[...]
As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits
their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will
wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the
creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran
hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast
themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and
dark lightless places far from hope."

I didn't read that as the creatures of Sauron (the Orcs, Trolls and
"spell-enslaved" beasts in particular) were bereft of their free will as
such, but rather that Sauron by his power and the force of his own will had
subdued the will of these servants (which was, perhaps, not very strong in
the beginning) and that once the driving force provided by Sauron's power
and will was gone, they awoke with terror - driving some of them mad.

<snip>

 > Yeah, you'd think they'd have enough sense to figure out that they
 > can't fight God. But since they were prideful and arrogant enough to
 > rebel in the first place, they are going to be too proud to admit they
 > screwed up and ask God to take them back.

And if they were prideful and arrogant enough to rebel in the first place,
they would (I think necessarily) believe that they /could/ indeed put
themselves above or beyond Eru's will.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than
ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things.
Discworld scientists at work (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

in <fEH9c.3720$z%1.942@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
Bill O'Meally <OMeallyMD RemoveThis @wise.rr.com> enriched us with:
 >
 > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
 >
 >
  >> " And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said:
[...]
  >> And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy
  >> friend, whom thou lovest.'"
  >> from the /Ainulindale/.
 >
 > I have always thought this one of the most beautiful and hopeful
 > passages in Tolkien's writings.

Aye.
I usually find a new 'among me favourites' passage every few pages when I
read his books, but this one does stand out - as does, IMO, Ulmo's speech
to Tuor in UT (I'm very fond of archaisms - possibly because we don't use
that in Danish, almost everything is modernised).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

in <hmue60p9chrnbnm2ca820c9ist58dmb9nk.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.DeleteThis@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
 >
 > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:09:17 -0500, Emerald
 > <elfmailwithoutspam.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
  >>
  >> In epic literature such as tH and LOtR the themes of doing one's
  >> duty and fulfilling one's destiny are as paramount as the theme of
  >> good vs. evil.

<snip>

 > Certainly, though, it is as you say for the good guys -- that they go
 > on because they perceive it is right to do so, and so, if successful,
 > earn great honor and achieve great things.

This relates also, in my mind, to Sam and Frodo's conversation on the
Stairs of Cirith Ungol about stories. In particular Sam's philosophising
about being a part of a story,
"Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually - their
paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had
lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't.
And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been
forgotten. We hear about those as just went on - and not all
to a good end, mind you; at least not to what folk inside a
story and not outside it call a good end."

This sounds very much like a program statement by the character Tolkien
himself described as the "chief hero" of the tale. As far as I read this,
Sam (and, I believe, Tolkien) attaches no blame to those who turned back,
but almost pities them.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to
anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

 > This sounds very much like a program statement by the character
 > Tolkien himself described as the "chief hero" of the tale. As far as
 > I read this, Sam (and, I believe, Tolkien) attaches no blame to those
 > who turned back, but almost pities them.

As exemplified by the way Aragorn pitied the members of the host that
became horror-stricken upon approaching the desolation before the Black
Gate:

"Aragorn looked at them, and there was pity in his eyes rather than
wrath; for these were young men from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or
husbandmen from Lossarnach, and to them Mordor had been from childhood a
name of evil, and yet unreal, a legend that had no part in their simple
life; and now they walked like men in a hideous dream made true, and
they understood not this war nor why fate should lead them to such a
pass.
'Go!' said Aragorn. 'But keep what honor you may, and do not run!
And there is a task which you may attempt and so be not wholly shamed.
Take your way south-west till you come to Cair Andros, and if that is
still held by enemies, as I think, then re-take it, if you can; and hold
it to the last defense of Gondor and Rohan!'
Then some being shamed by his mercy overcame their fear and went on,
and the others took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their
measure that they could turn to, and they departed..."
'The Black Gate Opens'

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:04:02 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
<OMeallyMD DeleteThis @wise.rr.com> wrote:

 >Troels Forchhammer wrote:
 >
  >> This sounds very much like a program statement by the character
  >> Tolkien himself described as the "chief hero" of the tale. As far as
  >> I read this, Sam (and, I believe, Tolkien) attaches no blame to those
  >> who turned back, but almost pities them.
 >
 >As exemplified by the way Aragorn pitied the members of the host that
 >became horror-stricken upon approaching the desolation before the Black
 >Gate:

And Faramir, in a more general sense, in Appendix A: "He read the
hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him
sooner to pity than to scorn."

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
<snip initial parts of discussion>
 > There's a passage also in letter #153 (1954):
 > " To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in
 > my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way [...] to
 > make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free
 > Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is only operative
 > within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist,
 > it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever
 > betides: sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, [...]
 > So in this myth, it is 'feigned' [...] that He gave special
 > 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created
 > beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made
 > should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within
 > limits, and of course subject to certain commands or
 > prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did,
 > and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord',
 > these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban
 > against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men.
 > They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the
 > physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking'
 > the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins,
 > abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures
 > begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote
 > 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because
 > by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their
 > actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World,
 > which is God's and ultimately good.)"
<snip>

IDHTBIFOM, but doesn't Tolkien also wonder if, by allowing for this kind
of begetting by the 'Diabolus Morgoth', he was committing heresy? I seem
to recall a Letter addressed to a cleric, a bishop perhaps?, regarding
this question. I'll look it up when I get home.

- Ciaran S.
______________________________________________
 > There is no doubt that in real life, the zombies of Dawn2
 > would be scarier and deadlier.

"It's sentences like this that make Usenet worthwhile."
Kevin Cogliano<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
 > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:04:02 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
 > <OMeallyMD.TakeThisOut@wise.rr.com> wrote:
 >
  >> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
  >>
   >>> This sounds very much like a program statement by the character
   >>> Tolkien himself described as the "chief hero" of the tale. As far as
   >>> I read this, Sam (and, I believe, Tolkien) attaches no blame to
   >>> those who turned back, but almost pities them.
  >>
  >> As exemplified by the way Aragorn pitied the members of the host that
  >> became horror-stricken upon approaching the desolation before the
  >> Black Gate:
 >
 > And Faramir, in a more general sense, in Appendix A: "He read the
 > hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him
 > sooner to pity than to scorn."
 >
 > Barb

And one should never "scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart."
Pity is so critically important to Tolkien. I see pity and free will as
the pivots of Tolkien's morality; and pity, freely chosen by the heart, is
the principal measure of goodness in the book.

- Ciaran S.
______________________________________________
 > There is no doubt that in real life, the zombies of Dawn2
 > would be scarier and deadlier.

"It's sentences like this that make Usenet worthwhile."
Kevin Cogliano<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

Shanahan wrote:

 > IDHTBIFOM, but doesn't Tolkien also wonder if, by allowing for this
 > kind of begetting by the 'Diabolus Morgoth', he was committing
 > heresy? I seem to recall a Letter addressed to a cleric, a bishop
 > perhaps?, regarding this question. I'll look it up when I get home.

Could you be thinking of a letter to W.H. Auden, where he is discussing
/orcs/?

12 May 1965
"[Auden had asked Tolkien if the notion of the Orcs, an entire race that
was irredeemably wicked, was not heretical]

With regard to /The Lord of the Rings/, I cannot claim to be a
sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or
not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with
formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be
consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted
somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are
not evil in origin..."
/Letters/ #269, p.355

Just as Frodo suggests that the orcs were not evil in origin, we also
know that Morgoth was not evil at first either, though he turned from
Eru very early.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

in <4068c7b5$1@news.netacc.net>,
Shanahan <pogued RemoveThis @redsuspenders.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> And one should never "scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart."
> Pity is so critically important to Tolkien. I see pity and free will
> as the pivots of Tolkien's morality; and pity, freely chosen by the
> heart, is the principal measure of goodness in the book.

And of course Tolkien reveals in /Letters/ just how important he thought
pity to be for the story - "the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own
'salvation' is achieved by his previous /pity/ and forgiveness of injury."
(#181) and several other quotations. The quest only succeeded - Sauron was
only defeated - due to Pity.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true.
- Niels Bohr, to a young physicist
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny 

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:01:23 -0500, "Shanahan"
<pogued RemoveThis @redsuspenders.com> wrote:

>And one should never "scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart."
>Pity is so critically important to Tolkien. I see pity and free will as
>the pivots of Tolkien's morality; and pity, freely chosen by the heart, is
>the principal measure of goodness in the book.

Yes, considering all that has been mentioned, as well as how important
it was for Bilbo to start his ownership of the Ring with Pity.

One might say that the Ring could subvert even this noble feeling,
considering Gandalf's:

"Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark
Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by
pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do
good."

Imagine becoming a Dark Lord by wanting to do good! And yet Gandalf
no doubt understood the peril quite clearly.

Yet, with all this discussion of pity, another passage takes on more
meaning, perhaps that the experience of the Ring, absent the desire
for strength and with humility, could actually foster Pity of a purer
sort than even Gandalf could imagine, though here JRRT never uses the
word:

"Sam's hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath
and the memory of evil. It would be just to slay this
treacherous, murderous creature, just and many times
deserved; and also it seemed the only safe thing to do.
But deep in his heart there was something that
estrained him: he could not strike this thing lying in the
dust, forlorn, ruinous, utterly wretched. He himself, though
only for a little while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly
he guessed the agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body,
enslaved to that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever
again in life."

Had Sam not pitied Gollum and his sword hand not wavered, the entire
Quest would have been a failure. Hmmm...did Sam outdo even Gandalf,
in this sense, when the test came?

Barb
 >> Stay informed about: Duty and Destiny