Dwarf subsistence

Stan Brown wrote:
> Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:09:56 +0100 from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>> Basically I think this covers the two suggestions that I've seen in
>> literature -- either the secluded vales or the things that grow in
>> darkness. In Tolkien's other descriptions of 'things that grow in
>> darkness' they don't really appear to me as viable alternatives for a
>> nourishing diet
>
> Don't forget fish in underground rivers. They would be wholesome, I
> think.
>
Yes: they kept Gollum going for quite a while.

> But I don't know what the Dwarves would do for carbohydrates.
>
> Do they need them? Dwarves are different from Elves and Men. While
> undoubtedly they must take some sustenance, and those living among
> other people seem to eat what those people eat, we don't know what
> are the minimum requirements to sustain Dwarvish life.
>
Very true. And we also don't know what they eat at home.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Sean wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> But I don't know what the Dwarves would do for carbohydrates.
>
> When Snow White arrives at the Dwarves' house she finds plenty
> of carbohydrates. She even bakes a pie (with steam vents supplied
> by cooperative songbirds stepping on the crust).
>
>> Do they need them? Dwarves are different from Elves and Men.
>
> Dwarves are indeed a race apart, but they still have to eat
> (as did Thorin & Co. at Bag End). Where do they get their provisions?
> Not from the mines they work (mushrooms aside). Obviously they trade
> their mineral products for food.
>
I always assumed trade would provide their main source of food.

> This is why Durin slept for so long. He had to wait for the Dawn
> of Agriculture.
>
LOL!!

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Raven wrote:

<snip>

> We don't know if there were more than these three exits. Gimli
> certainly did not know of that at Silvertine save as a rumour. But it
> would seem to me that the Dwarves would not have made many doors into
> their impregnable fortress for a foe to force an entrance through. They
> might or might not have made a few into high places on the montainsides,
> for gardening, for fresh air, for foraging, for spying.

Of course, there were 'window's into Moria, so surely they would need to
gain access to the outside of the mountain to be able to dig through the
rock and create openings.

> These glens and
> shelves would have been chosen so that only on wing or through Moria
> could one reach them. Thus an army of foes could not use them, and the
> Dwarves could focus their defence on the two gates.

That does sound very likely to me.

> But they could also
> not use those doors to escape - I somehow doubt that BASEjumping was a
> frequently practiced pastime among the peoples of Middle-earth.
>
I bet anyone that did try it would have been caught by a passing eagle:
they're two-a-penny in Middle-earth!

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Morgil wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong kirjoitti:
>
>> "There is even a chance that Dwarves are there [i.e. Moria], and that
>> in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found."
>> (FotR, A Journey in the Dark)
>>
>> Now, Balin occupied Moria in 2989, but no more is heard from the
>> colony after 2994, when it is wiped out. The Company enters Moria in
>> 3019, 25 years after the last contact was heard. So Gandalf is clearly
>> of the opinion that the Dwarves could have survived 25 years trapped
>> within Moria without any outside supplies. Unless he was simply
>> manipulating Gloin into supporting his plan to enter Moria, and I
>> don't think that is likely. Besides, if it wasn't possible Gimli would
>> have contradicted him.
>>
>> So I was wondering just how this could be possible, and what it is
>> that they would have been living on. I can't off the top of my head
>> think of any examples of what or how Dwarves cultivate. The only thing
>> that occurs to me is that they were using the lower parts of the Misty
>> Mountains for cultivation, either on inaccessible natural plateaus or
>> by terracing, such as what the Incas achieved in the Andes.
>>
>> Any alternative suggestions?
>
> 1) They might not have been trapped. Could be just that the
> messengers they sent had been killed on the dangerous journey.
> Or the enemy activity could ahve prevented them from sending
> messengers at all. As far as Gandalf knew that is.
>
True, I hadn't thought of that. Of course, Sauron's messenger to Erebor
promises that "...the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever" (FotR, The
Council of Elrond) if Dain reveals where the hobbit who took the Ring
is, which implies that it is no longer in Dwarvish hands again. But
then, Sauron could be bluffing, or else offering to recognise a
situation that already exists.

> 2) They probably had large stockpile of cram. Not as yummy as
> lembas, but maybe enough to keep dwarf alive for a decade or two.
>
I also hadn't thought of that. Do we know how long cram keeps for?

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Bill O'Meally wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>> I did consider that possibility, but don't fungi need organic
>> materials to grow on in the first place?
>
> Two words: Dwarf Dung.
>
Ewwww!!!

Hmmm... I wonder if they could eat orc...

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:09:56 +0100 from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>> Basically I think this covers the two suggestions that I've seen in
>> literature -- either the secluded vales or the things that grow in
>> darkness. In Tolkien's other descriptions of 'things that grow in
>> darkness' they don't really appear to me as viable alternatives for a
>> nourishing diet
>
> Don't forget fish in underground rivers. They would be wholesome, I
> think.
>
> But I don't know what the Dwarves would do for carbohydrates.

Who needs them? Inuit lived healthier lives on a pure Atkins diet - fish,
seals, caribou, polar bears and the odd whale. I suspect, if anything, a
diet of fish would be more deficient in fats than carbohydrates.

> Do they need them? Dwarves are different from Elves and Men. While
> undoubtedly they must take some sustenance, and those living among
> other people seem to eat what those people eat, we don't know what
> are the minimum requirements to sustain Dwarvish life.

Rock cakes...
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

On Dec 25, 9:23 am, "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.....DeleteThis@ojevind.lang> wrote:
> "WindSparrow" <andi.windspar....DeleteThis@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:011314f7-36fc-4e51-bdea-ee4558b6ec57@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...

>
> So we have: cram, various stores of other kind, perhaps subterranean fish,
> perhaps stuff acquired from the slopes of the Misty Mountains. Or perhaps
> Tolkien showed his usual indifference to such mundane matters as how food
> and other goods and services are produced.
>
> Öjevind


In this case, there's another possibility, Gandalf said it was
_possible_, not that he thought it was likely. Gandalf knwos that Eru
is full of surprises, after all, and that's why he rarely speaks of
anything in the future as being utterly certain or utterly impossible.

Tolkien was indifferent to the mundane details of life in the early
versions of the story. The most extreme version of that would be the
idea of a living world full of animals and plants abent sunlight, one
that went on for ages. In later years he was trying to rework things
to correct that problem. For example, the above joke that Durin had
to sleep until agriculture started is actually not entirely
improbable, Eru insisted that the Elves enter the world before the
Dwarves, and so the Dwarves have always had someone to trade with.
They're probably _capable_ of farming, and I'm sure they've done it at
times, but it's not really their thing.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

"WindSparrow" <andi.windsparrow.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:011314f7-36fc-4e51-bdea-ee4558b6ec57@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
> Do we know how long cram keeps for?
>>
>> Jamie
>
> It's like Twinkies. As long as you don't open the package, for-darn-
> near-ever.

So we have: cram, various stores of other kind, perhaps subterranean fish,
perhaps stuff acquired from the slopes of the Misty Mountains. Or perhaps
Tolkien showed his usual indifference to such mundane matters as how food
and other goods and services are produced.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Johnny1a wrote:

> On Dec 25, 9:23 am, "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.... RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote:
>> "WindSparrow" <andi.windspar... RemoveThis @gmail.com> skrev i
>>
meddelandetnews:011314f7-36fc-4e51-bdea-ee4558b6ec57@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> So we have: cram, various stores of other kind, perhaps subterranean
>> fish, perhaps stuff acquired from the slopes of the Misty Mountains. Or
>> perhaps Tolkien showed his usual indifference to such mundane matters as
>> how food and other goods and services are produced.
>
> In this case, there's another possibility, Gandalf said it was
> _possible_, not that he thought it was likely. Gandalf knwos that Eru
> is full of surprises, after all, and that's why he rarely speaks of
> anything in the future as being utterly certain or utterly impossible.

Yes, I never really felt Gandalf expected to meet Balin & Co....

> Tolkien was indifferent to the mundane details of life in the early
> versions of the story. The most extreme version of that would be the
> idea of a living world full of animals and plants abent sunlight, one
> that went on for ages.

Well, that of course, was different. That was before Eru had even
introduced photosynthesis. It was definitely a world that only existed
with a continuous input of "manna".

> In later years he was trying to rework things
> to correct that problem.

I don't think so. I believe he always intended that the world into which
the Firstborn were introduced would not operate under the physics of our
current universe.

[Dwarves are]
> probably _capable_ of farming, and I'm sure they've done it at
> times, but it's not really their thing.

It seems unlikely - they'd have to let their womenfolk see daylight...
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

In article <011314f7-36fc-4e51-bdea-ee4558b6ec57
@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>, andi.windsparrow RemoveThis @gmail.com says...
> Do we know how long cram keeps for?
> >
> > Jamie
>
> It's like Twinkies. As long as you don't open the package, for-darn-
> near-ever.
>
Indeed:
"...it is biscuitish, keeps good indefinitely...", TH, Ch XIII 'Not at
home'.

--
Pete Gray

'Veni, Vidi, Velcro' - I came, I saw, I stuck around
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

In the chapter 'Of Dwarves and Men', in The Peoples of Middle Earth
there is a section called 'Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men'
in which Tolkien mentions how men became the chief providers of food
which the dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners and
makers of things of craft. This is alluded to by Thorin in the first
chapter of the Hobbit, when he is telling Bilbo of the history of the
dragon he mentions how in the great days of Erebor the Dwarves never had
to bother with finding or growing food because they could trade for it
with men.

Of course Tolkien doesn't explain how such a great civilisation as Moria
could be supported, unless the dwarves were very friendly with the Elves
of Lorien, which doesn't seem that likely in many versions of the story.
It's not only how the dwarves fed themselves which doesn't match the
real world, the more obvious example is Mordor (or Angband in the First
Age). The description of Frodo's jouney across Mordor makes it clear
that Gorgoroth is basically a desert, yet it supports a huge number of
soldiers as well as Sauron's industrial machine. Tolkien says that there
were great wagons bringing food from the area of Lake Nurn in the south.

The problem is that the horses or oxen towing the wagons would need food
and water on the way, basically they would consume much of their own
load. Before the steam engine such a food supply could only be provided
by ship (eg Rome supplied with grain from North Africa via the port of
Ostia and barges up the Tiber). But Mordor has no great rivers and is
not on the sea. Angband is similar to Moria, but it is located in what
seems to be a sub arctic region with the elves and men occupying all the
food producing areas nearby. To provide food to Angband wagons would
have to travel across the north of Beleriand far to the north of the
elvish realms, through what would seem to be artic or sub artic regions.

In his earlier days Tolkien seemed happy to describe Middle earth as a
place where our world's scientific rules don't apply, eg the sun and
moon being created thousands of years after the Earth, an Elvish
civilisation supported by plants growing only on starlight, huge numbers
of orcs and dwarves living in underground caves with no obvious source
of food. Later he wanted to make Middle earth more closely aligned with
our world, but probably realised it was impossible to do without
altering the story too much.

Jim

Johnny1a wrote:
> On Dec 25, 9:23 am, "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.... RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote:
>> "WindSparrow" <andi.windspar... RemoveThis @gmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:011314f7-36fc-4e51-bdea-ee4558b6ec57@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
>
>> So we have: cram, various stores of other kind, perhaps subterranean fish,
>> perhaps stuff acquired from the slopes of the Misty Mountains. Or perhaps
>> Tolkien showed his usual indifference to such mundane matters as how food
>> and other goods and services are produced.
>>
>> Öjevind
>
>
> In this case, there's another possibility, Gandalf said it was
> _possible_, not that he thought it was likely. Gandalf knwos that Eru
> is full of surprises, after all, and that's why he rarely speaks of
> anything in the future as being utterly certain or utterly impossible.
>
> Tolkien was indifferent to the mundane details of life in the early
> versions of the story. The most extreme version of that would be the
> idea of a living world full of animals and plants abent sunlight, one
> that went on for ages. In later years he was trying to rework things
> to correct that problem. For example, the above joke that Durin had
> to sleep until agriculture started is actually not entirely
> improbable, Eru insisted that the Elves enter the world before the
> Dwarves, and so the Dwarves have always had someone to trade with.
> They're probably _capable_ of farming, and I'm sure they've done it at
> times, but it's not really their thing.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

"Jim Harker" <jnharker RemoveThis @netspace.net.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:flfral$2mk0$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> In the chapter 'Of Dwarves and Men', in The Peoples of Middle Earth there
> is a section called 'Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men' in which
> Tolkien mentions how men became the chief providers of food which the
> dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners and makers of
> things of craft. This is alluded to by Thorin in the first chapter of the
> Hobbit, when he is telling Bilbo of the history of the dragon he mentions
> how in the great days of Erebor the Dwarves never had to bother with
> finding or growing food because they could trade for it with men.
>
> Of course Tolkien doesn't explain how such a great civilisation as Moria
> could be supported, unless the dwarves were very friendly with the Elves
> of Lorien, which doesn't seem that likely in many versions of the story.

They probably got the food from the Elves of Hollin, or from humans living
west of the Misty Mountains. Some food may even have been supplied by the
Dunlendings.

> It's not only how the dwarves fed themselves which doesn't match the real
> world, the more obvious example is Mordor (or Angband in the First Age).
> The description of Frodo's jouney across Mordor makes it clear that
> Gorgoroth is basically a desert, yet it supports a huge number of soldiers
> as well as Sauron's industrial machine. Tolkien says that there were great
> wagons bringing food from the area of Lake Nurn in the south.
>
> The problem is that the horses or oxen towing the wagons would need food
> and water on the way, basically they would consume much of their own load.
> Before the steam engine such a food supply could only be provided by ship
> (eg Rome supplied with grain from North Africa via the port of Ostia and
> barges up the Tiber). But Mordor has no great rivers and is not on the
> sea. Angband is similar to Moria, but it is located in what seems to be a
> sub arctic region with the elves and men occupying all the food producing
> areas nearby. To provide food to Angband wagons would have to travel
> across the north of Beleriand far to the north of the elvish realms,
> through what would seem to be artic or sub artic regions.

I can more or less accept the thought of Mordor being supplied with
provisions from the Nurnen area; but as you say, it is hard to understand
how Angband and Utumno could be fed.

> In his earlier days Tolkien seemed happy to describe Middle earth as a
> place where our world's scientific rules don't apply, eg the sun and moon
> being created thousands of years after the Earth, an Elvish civilisation
> supported by plants growing only on starlight, huge numbers of orcs and
> dwarves living in underground caves with no obvious source of food. Later
> he wanted to make Middle earth more closely aligned with our world, but
> probably realised it was impossible to do without altering the story too
> much.

I agree with this. Of course, an escape hatch is provided in the form of
statements that the stories of the Elder Days were "the mythology fo
Middle-earth", that is to say, they were not necessarily the literal truth.
However, that is a bit hard to accept in the knowledge that there were still
some Elves around (Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborm and Glorfindel, for example)
who had clear personal memories of the Elder Days.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> I can more or less accept the thought of Mordor being supplied with
> provisions from the Nurnen area; but as you say, it is hard to understand
> how Angband and Utumno could be fed.

Wasn't Angband in the Arctic? It would have had a short but intense
growing season (long daylight hours) capable of producing giant cabbages
and other crops. Also there's an Arctic fishery and caribou/reindeer
to convert tundra vegetation such as moss and lichens into edible
protein.

However, I understand that orcs are swarthy, whereas light skin
pigmentation is associated with Vitamin D production from sunlight
absorption. If the Angband orcs were Vitamin D deficient they'd
have had problems with bone mineralization and rickets (in orclings).

I'm less certain about the dietary requirements of other Angband
residents such as balrogs and fire-drakes. The best dragon comparison
might be a commonly domesticated reptile such as the iguana.
However this species is adapted to a diet of tree leaves which is
probably less valid than, say, the carnivorous monitor lizard:
http://www.molon.de/galleries/Malaysia/EastCoast/Perhentian/Kecil/img.php?pic=14

Other foods present different potential problems. Some vegetables
contain chemicals which bind to iodine, making it unusable by the
dragon. These chemicals are known as "goitrogens". Iodine is vital for
proper functioning of the thyroid gland, which monitors several
metabolic functions. Iodine deficiency caused by ingesting these
iodine-binders produces goiter, a serious disease that can be fatal. For
this reason, vegetables or fruits that are goitrogenic must be excluded
from the fire drake's diet.
-- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/iguanadiet.html

As for balrogs, the caregiver should ensure that the creature receives
a well balanced diet as well as plenty of exercise, especially the wing
muscles (yes I am firmly in the winged-balrog camp). The reason that
the Moria balrog didn't fly on its descent was that Gandalf had hewed
its primary flight tendons with Glamdring.

Sean_Q_
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