Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le..

Bree wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2006 18:13:23 -0800, nystulc DeleteThis @cs.com wrote:
>
> >Bree wrote:

> The dwarfs imaginations were full of something very dull and limited (ie
> the stable) and they felt only irritation and resentment toward it.
> Lewis's imagination, even while he was an atheist, was full of colorful
> rich mythic material and literature, which he loved.
>

Which is quite a different thing than experiencing in the existance of
God. Myths are concretes, (and like Christ) provide a concievable
picture of a force or truth, you can believe them and never sense the
presence or the movement of the divine. Scripture says there are truths
that are spiritually discerned and that, for me at least, is certainly
true. In "A Grief Observed" Lewis speaks of not being able to sense the
nearness of God, as he could usually, that is not a mythical
perspective, that is experiential. The dwarves were not suffering, imo,
from a lack of imagination but from "They have eyes and see not"
syndrome.

Daryl
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Bree wrote:
> The dwarfs imaginations were full of something very dull and limited (ie
> the stable) and they felt only irritation and resentment toward it.
> Lewis's imagination, even while he was an atheist, was full of colorful
> rich mythic material and literature, which he loved.

I still think you are comparing apples and oranges. Apart from their
inability to perceive paradise, there is no indication that the dwarfs
are any substantially less imaginative than anyone else in Narnia. In
any event, even if we assume that they do suffer from defective
imaginations, the example of Orual seems to rule out the idea that
Lewis sees any essential connection. (The dwarfs are also short, but
it would be perilous to conclude that there is any connection between
their height and their misperception of paradise as a stable). In any
event, it seems to me that the ability to perceive a stable, where
there is no stable, requires some imagination.

> >The problem with the Dwarfs, and with Queen Orual, is not so much that
> >they disbelieve in Aslan or God or "The Gods", but rather that they
> >distrust and fear the Divine and do not believe that the Divine entity
> >is on their side.
>
> That certainly describes Orual, but some of the Naria dwarfs, at one time
> or another, disbelieved in the existence of Aslan -- ie Trumpkin, and
> perhaps Nikabrik. I'm not sure about the dwarfs of THE LAST BATTLE, but I
> think their attitude may have included some disbelief as well.

If we are talking about LAST BATTLE, the dwarfs in question all started
out as believers in Aslan, and were in fact ready to march to the Salt
Mines of Calormen, simply because it was Aslan's orders. After they
saw Puzzle, and realized they had been "taken in", they became very
distrustful, and determined not to be "taken in" ever again.

Their main problem is distrust and fear. Note that Aslan does not
permit Tash to take the Dwarfs, and their ultimate fate remains
undetermined.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

On 1 Feb 2006 19:37:21 -0800, nystulc.TakeThisOut@cs.com wrote:

>Bree wrote:
>> The dwarfs imaginations were full of something very dull and limited (ie
>> the stable) and they felt only irritation and resentment toward it.
>> Lewis's imagination, even while he was an atheist, was full of colorful
>> rich mythic material and literature, which he loved.

/moved/
> In any
>event, it seems to me that the ability to perceive a stable, where
>there is no stable, requires some imagination.

That's why I spoke of 'the dwarfs imaginations'. Whatever word is used
(imagination, consciousness, attention....), Lewis' was full of colorful
supernatural things he loved (even when he thought them untrue) and the
dwarfs /noun/ was full of dull things they hated (even tho they thought
them true).

/snip/

>> >The problem with the Dwarfs, and with Queen Orual, is not so much that
>> >they disbelieve in Aslan or God or "The Gods", but rather that they
>> >distrust and fear the Divine and do not believe that the Divine entity
>> >is on their side.
>>
>> That certainly describes Orual, but some of the Naria dwarfs, at one time
>> or another, disbelieved in the existence of Aslan -- ie Trumpkin, and
>> perhaps Nikabrik. I'm not sure about the dwarfs of THE LAST BATTLE, but I
>> think their attitude may have included some disbelief as well.
>
>If we are talking about LAST BATTLE, the dwarfs in question all started
>out as believers in Aslan, and were in fact ready to march to the Salt
>Mines of Calormen, simply because it was Aslan's orders. After they
>saw Puzzle, and realized they had been "taken in", they became very
>distrustful, and determined not to be "taken in" ever again.

To me that suggested that from now on they weren't going to believe in the
real Aslan either; it's at this point that their disbelief began. (One
reason I read it this way, is that I see it as a parallel to the rise of
materialism after the Reformation. My reading is influenced by the Marxist
dwarfs in THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS.)


>Their main problem is distrust and fear. Note that Aslan does not
>permit Tash to take the Dwarfs, and their ultimate fate remains
>undetermined.

True; Lewis did seem rather fond of atheists.



Bree
--
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Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
Aslan.

These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
Dwarfs can only
perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
solid to them.
However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
fruit of Paradise.

Examples below:

Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
wall?

Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
the fire?
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

SS13 wrote:

> On Mar 16, 7:30 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru... RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
> > gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
> > the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
> > Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
> > are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
> > like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
> > the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
> > what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
> > believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
> > Aslan.
> >
> > These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
> > the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
> > The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
> > Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
> > Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
> > the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
> > Dwarfs can only
> > perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
> > Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
> > they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
> > solid to them.
> > However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
> > Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
> > fruit of Paradise.
> >
> > Examples below:
> >
> > Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
> > the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
> > What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
> > imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
> > wall?
> >
> > Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
> > stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
> > conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
> > the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
> > the fire?
>
> This hole situation is Lewis's answer on the science, which by then
> already found many things disturbing to a Christian: That people can
> emerge via evolution, and that Universe is HUGE - so huge it's
> unbelievable that it was all created only for humans.
>
> Therefore, Lewis believed that some truth can NOT be verified by
> scientific method (oserve reality - make cojections- create a view on
> a question), but MUST BE BELIEVED to begin with, and if you don't
> believe, you NEVER get any results that could say you God really
> exists, as your experiments have different results from experiments of
> those who believe.
>
> So no "my results say there is no God and that's why I don't believe
> in it", but "You don't believe and THEREFORE you get "scientific"
> results as if it is no God."

Would Lewis also say that people who don't believe in the paranormal won't get
any experimental results indicative of the existence of paranormal phenomena
(telepathy, telekinesis, ghosts, etc.) BECAUSE they don't believe in the
paranormal?
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

On Mar 16, 7:30 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
> gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
> the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
> Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
> are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
> like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
> the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
> what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
> believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
> Aslan.
>
> These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
> the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
> The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
> Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
> Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
> the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
> Dwarfs can only
> perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
> Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
> they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
> solid to them.
> However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
> Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
> fruit of Paradise.
>
> Examples below:
>
> Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
> the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
> What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
> imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
> wall?
>
> Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
> stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
> conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
> the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
> the fire?

This hole situation is Lewis's answer on the science, which by then
already found many things disturbing to a Christian: That people can
emerge via evolution, and that Universe is HUGE - so huge it's
unbelievable that it was all created only for humans.

Therefore, Lewis believed that some truth can NOT be verified by
scientific method (oserve reality - make cojections- create a view on
a question), but MUST BE BELIEVED to begin with, and if you don't
believe, you NEVER get any results that could say you God really
exists, as your experiments have different results from experiments of
those who believe.

So no "my results say there is no God and that's why I don't believe
in it", but "You don't believe and THEREFORE you get "scientific"
results as if it is no God."
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

On Mar 22, 5:45 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> SS13 wrote:
> > On Mar 16, 7:30 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
> > > gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
> > > the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
> > > Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
> > > are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
> > > like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
> > > the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
> > > what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
> > > believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
> > > Aslan.
>
> > > These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
> > > the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
> > > The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
> > > Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
> > > Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
> > > the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
> > > Dwarfs can only
> > > perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
> > > Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
> > > they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
> > > solid to them.
> > > However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
> > > Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
> > > fruit of Paradise.
>
> > > Examples below:
>
> > > Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
> > > the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
> > > What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
> > > imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
> > > wall?
>
> > > Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
> > > stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
> > > conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
> > > the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
> > > the fire?
>
> > This hole situation is Lewis's answer on the science, which by then
> > already found many things disturbing to a Christian: That people can
> > emerge via evolution, and that Universe is HUGE - so huge it's
> > unbelievable that it was all created only for humans.
>
> > Therefore, Lewis believed that some truth can NOT be verified by
> > scientific method (oserve reality - make cojections- create a view on
> > a question), but MUST BE BELIEVED to begin with, and if you don't
> > believe, you NEVER get any results that could say you God really
> > exists, as your experiments have different results from experiments of
> > those who believe.
>
> > So no "my results say there is no God and that's why I don't believe
> > in it", but "You don't believe and THEREFORE you get "scientific"
> > results as if it is no God."
>
> Would Lewis also say that people who don't believe in the paranormal won't get
> any experimental results indicative of the existence of paranormal phenomena
> (telepathy, telekinesis, ghosts, etc.) BECAUSE they don't believe in the
> paranormal?

To some extent, yes.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

Bree wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:43:58 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Bree wrote:
> >
> >> You have a good imagination and interesting ideas. You might be good at
> >> writing fan-fiction. Have you looked at Narnia fan-fiction sites? Or Xanth
> >> fan-fic?
> >
> >No to your 1st Q, yes to your 2nd Q.
> >
> >What do you think of the Dwarfs' reality being different from Tirian's
> >reality?
>
> I don't think Lewis's books are as heavy-duty as Xanth. Have you written
> Xanth fan-fiction? Perhaps you should try. Or if Narnia fan-fic is allowed,
> maybe you could use your ideas there.

I have read Xanth fan-fiction on the PATH website (Piers Anthony Thread).
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
Aslan.

These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
Dwarfs can only
perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
solid to them.
However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
fruit of Paradise.

Examples below:

Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
wall?

Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
the fire?
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in
news:47AC1F57.DAC131C9@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us:

....
> These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
> the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
> The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
> Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
> Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
> the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
> Dwarfs can only
> perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
> Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
> they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
> solid to them.
> However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
> Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
> fruit of Paradise.
>
> Examples below:
>
> Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
> the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
> What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside
> the imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the
> stable wall?
>
> Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes
> like stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
> conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood
> from the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able
> to see the fire?

With these clever "what ifs?" I think you're missing the point, which is
in the text of TLB before the examples of how the dwarf's self-created
"reality" differs from the archetypical Reality of paradise. Aslan says
(quoting from memory), in response to a compassionate protest of Lucy's
that the Dwarves are still miserable, "Come, and you will see what I can
and cannot do." Whereupon he creates the feast, etc.

These examples in the text highlight the fact that Aslan is powerless to
reach the Dwarves. The point is that that by their cynical, self-serving
attitudes and behavior they have succeeded in blocking out almost all of
the goodness and pleasure from their lives, shutting themselves up in a
locked, dark, dank stable because they *won't* be taken in again -- when
in fact they sit at the threshold of an infinite, green world of joy
where fear is impossible (see later in the book).

Yes, the Dwarves live in a "stable reality", but it is one of their own
making, and the point is that they sit in a dungeon that they have
crafted for themselves, rather than discovering the principles of the
Dwarves' prison.

RA
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le.. 

Chapter 13, "How The Dwarfs Refused To Be Taken In". King Tirian has
gone through a stable door to find a paradise that's much bigger than
the stable. In there, he found Digory and Polly from The Magician's
Nephew, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Eustace, and Jill. In the Stable Paradise
are also 11 Dwarfs, who can't perceive the paradise. To them, it looks
like an ordinary stable. They can't see anything in that stable because
the stable is enclosed and its night outside. Also, they can only smell
what would be in a stable. This is because those Dwarfs had ceased to
believe in Aslan or anything else, due to having been fooled by the fake
Aslan.

These Dwarfs appear to be in a reality which is slightly altered from
the reality inhabited by King Tirian and the other Friends of Narnia.
The Dwarfs are in a "Stable Reality" while Tirian et al are in a
Paradise Reality". However, "Paradise Reality" people can talk to the
Dwarfs, physically move the Dwarfs, and put solid objects in front of
the Dwarfs that the Dwarfs can pick up and even eat. However, the
Dwarfs can only
perceive sounds, smells, sights, and touches in terms of the "Stable
Reality" They can't see the light of the Paradise Reality. Also, if
they intersect the wall of the stable in their reality, the wall is
solid to them.
However, that same wall is nonexistent to people in the "Paradise
Reality", and they can see the light, smell the flowers, and eat the
fruit of Paradise.

Examples below:

Tirian swung one Dwarf out of the Dwarf circle, but he darted back to
the circle, rubbing his nose as if he had bumped into the stable wall.
What would have happened if Tirian had tried to take a Dwarf outside the
imaginary stable? Would the Dwarf have gotten crushed on the stable
wall?

Aslan conjured a glorious feast for the Dwarfs, but the food tastes like
stable food to the Dwarfs. What would have happened if Aslan had
conjured a bonfire for the Dwarfs with 1) Paradise wood, or 2) Wood from
the Narnia outside the stable. Would the Dwarfs have been able to see
the fire?
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarfs And Altered Realities In "The Last Battle" By CS Le..