Earendil in the sky tonight

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa5ee124100dece98bee1@news.odyssey.net...
 > The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
 > always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
 > Dipper.
 >
 > Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
 > as the morning star, or both?

It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
other planets.

Don't forget the Plough.

I don't think anyone ever does name constellations -- just individual stars.
I'm not sure astronomy (or astrology) was up Tolkien's alley at all.

Tsar Parmathule<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

It seems "the softrat" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown
 ><the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
  >>Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
  >>as the morning star, or both?

 >a) Earendil is Venus.
 >b) Venus is the Morning Star.
 >c) Venus is the Evening Star.

Well, of course I know that "the" morning star and "the" evening
star are the same planet. (There's a second "morning star"/"evening
star" combo, of course: Mercury. But it's visible a smaller
proportion of the time and less easy to see.)

My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
when they realized that the two were the same planet.

Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:24:19 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born"
<AtsarisbornNoSpam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

 >
 >"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
 >news:MPG.1aa5ee124100dece98bee1@news.odyssey.net...
  >> The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
  >> always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
  >> Dipper.
  >>
  >> Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
  >> as the morning star, or both?
 >
 >It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
 >sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
 >assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
 >moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
 >other planets.
 >
 >Don't forget the Plough.

The Plough is known as the Big Dipper in some parts of the world.


--
Alison<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

 > The Plough is known as the Big Dipper in some parts of the world.

as paul mccartney pointed out

earendil and morgil are alright tonight<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm>
wrote:

 >The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
 >always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
 >Dipper.
 >
 >Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
 >as the morning star, or both?

Careful now!

Next thng you know you'll be saying that Earendil is Satan!

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: hayesmstw DeleteThis @hotmail.com
Web: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
<oe-qf-sig>
"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1aa5ee124100dece98bee1@news.odyssey.net...
 > The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
 > always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
 > Dipper.
 >
 > Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
 > as the morning star, or both?
 >
 > --
 > Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com</font" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</font</a>>
 > Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
 > Tolkien letters FAQ:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</font" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</font" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</font" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

Ah, *that's* the diamond Lucy was looking for.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it. -- Groucho
Marx
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown=20
(the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm) said:

[snip]

 > My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.=20
 > Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure=20
 > when they realized that the two were the same planet.
 >=20
 > Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,=20
 > then the Evening Star would have been E=E4rendil since his ship rose=20
 > in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

Letter #297:

"To my mind the A-S uses [of Earendel] seem plainly to indicate that it=20
was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that=20
is what we now call _Venus_: the morning-star as it may be seen shining=20
brilliantly in the dawn, before the actual rising of the Sun. This is at=20
any rate how I took it. Before 1914 I wrote a 'poem' upon Earendel who=20
launched his ship like a bright spark from the havens of the Sun. I=20
adopted him into my mythology - in which he became a prime figure as a=20
mariner, and eventually as a herald star, and a sign of hope to men.=20
_Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima_ (II 329) 'hail Earendil brightest of=20
Stars' is derived at long remove from _=C9ala =C9arendel engla beorhtast_."

So if it has to be one or the other, it will be the morning star.

As a tangential point, I wonder what Frodo was supposed to be=20
'accessing' when he was inspired to cry "Aiya Earendil elenion=20
ancalima!" in Shelob's lair, since he 'knew not what he had spoken' and=20
another voice spoke through his own. I assume the line would have come=20
from a 'written-up' version of the story of Earendil and the War of=20
Wrath - perhaps as a battle-cry?=20
--=20
Matthew<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

Stan Brown wrote:

 > The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
 > always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
 > Dipper.
 >
 > Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
 > as the morning star, or both?

Both. Its two names indicates the time of day when it is seen. It took a
long time for people to realized that the T.M.S and T.E.S were one and
the same body.

Bob Kolker<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

It seems "Matthew Bladen" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown
 >(the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm) said:
  >> My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
  >> Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
  >> when they realized that the two were the same planet.
  >>
  >> Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
  >> then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
  >> in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).
 >
 >Letter #297:
 >
 >"To my mind the A-S uses [of Earendel] seem plainly to indicate that it
 >was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that
 >is what we now call _Venus_: the morning-star as it may be seen shining
 >brilliantly in the dawn, before the actual rising of the Sun."
 >
 >So if it has to be one or the other, it will be the morning star.

Thanks. I must have read that passage last spring, but I didn't
remember it at all.

 >As a tangential point, I wonder what Frodo was supposed to be
 >'accessing' when he was inspired to cry "Aiya Earendil elenion
 >ancalima!" in Shelob's lair,

I have wondered the same thing. Perhaps that came from the same
source as his "prophetic" dreams? -- not that that's much of an
answer, of course.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

"Robert J. Kolker" <bobkolker RemoveThis @NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<xs5%b.56298$Xp.267581@attbi_s54>...
 > Stan Brown wrote:
 >
  > > The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
  > > always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
  > > Dipper.
  > >
  > > Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
  > > as the morning star, or both?
 >
 > Both. Its two names indicates the time of day when it is seen. It took a
 > long time for people to realized that the T.M.S and T.E.S were one and
 > the same body.
 >
 > Bob Kolker

Strictly speaking Earendil is NOT Venus. Earendil has a Silmaril bound
to his brow as he sails Vingilot in the sky. It is the Silmaril that
we see.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:24:19 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born"
<AtsarisbornNoSpam RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
 >"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
  >> The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
  >> always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
  >> Dipper.
  >> Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
  >> as the morning star, or both?
 >
 >It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
 >sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
 >assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
 >moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
 >other planets.
 >
 >Don't forget the Plough.
 >
 >I don't think anyone ever does name constellations -- just individual stars.
 >I'm not sure astronomy (or astrology) was up Tolkien's alley at all.
 >
 >Tsar Parmathule
 >
Do you mean no one in the book names any constellations? I think
Remirrath, the Netted Stars, are probably a constellation (the Pleiades?).
Likewise Menelvagor/Orion 'with his shining belt', and the Sickle/Plough.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight 

"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:403c4a06.153634919@news.saix.net...
 > On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
  > >always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
  > >Dipper.
  > >
  > >Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
  > >as the morning star, or both?
 >
 > Careful now!
 >
 > Next thng you know you'll be saying that Earendil is Satan!

Hehe, exactly, since 'Lucifer' is the Roman name for Venus as the Morning
Star (Lucifer = 'Light bearer'). This is way before the Christians took his
name for the development of their Satan figure.
Lucifer is mentioned in Ovid among other texts.

However, if Lucifer was Venus as 'Morning star' what was Venus as 'Evening
Star' called?
Arwen? or is that Evenstar...

Douglas<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Earendil in the sky tonight