(First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette..

Hi Bill,

Even with the post-1978 attempt at rendering the information consistent and
intelligent, publishers have found ways to make matters obscure.

The peculiarities of Random House you have mentioned. Number order is not
relevant. The presence or absence of a "1" is more important than its
placement. I walked through my library this evening, pulling books at random
from various publishers. One thing I noticed is that the use of letters, e.g.,
"A" instead of "1", seems to be very much diminished. I agree with the comment
from "Book Editions" that methods vary even within a publishing house - and that
sometimes (a) because methods differ for types of books (fiction, history, etc)
and (b) because over the course of a period of time the publisher has refined
its method.

I pulled a few books from various publishers for comment.

Knopf. (Sample is Original Sin by P.D. James (1995)) All it says is "First
American Edition". No number line at all.

Harper Collins. (Sample is Daughter of Fortune by Isabel Allende (1999)). It
has the following number line:
00 01 02 03 [logo] 10 9 8 7 6
signifying a sixth printing made in year 2000. Note that the "1" if it were
there would be on the far right.

Viking. (Sample is Lake Wobegon Days by Garrison Keillor (1985)) . The
copyright page states "Seventh Printing October 1985". No number line. Note an
interesting detail on the dust jacket. In the lower right corner of the front
end flap there is the designation "09173085" which I believe must be
decipherable to indicate printing information.

Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. (Sample is A Case of Curiosities by Allen Kurzweil
(1992)). The copyright page reads (two lines):
First Edition
B C D E
That is directly in contrast to Random House. Whereas this sort of designation
at RH would guarantee you a first printing, here it means only a second printing.

The only conclusion is that even now, after such a push to standardize, only
minimal consistency has been achieved. I myself long for information about
number of copies per printing. Pantheon used to provide this information, e.g.,
Doctor Zhivago by Boris Pasternak. Then there were publishers that told you how
many printings in each month, so you knew what month your copy was printed in -
e.g., Macmillan, Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell. So we seem to have
lost information at the same time we have gained some.


Francis A. Miniter


Bill Palmer wrote:

 > Is it possible that John or Francis or Paghat or any of the
 > other distinguished contributors to the rec.collecting.books
 > forum can simplify the matter of print-run numbers and letters
 > regarding all or most questions of determining authentic first
 > editions?
 >
 > Yes, I realize there are all sorts of websites which attempt
 > this. Perhaps I may be visiting the wrong sites, but I have
 > found the "explanations" -- putting it as politely as
 > possible -- annoyingly skimpy here and dauntingly nebulous
 > there.
 >
 > Furthermore, when inquiring into the matter at bookshops,
 > I have received contradictory information from used and
 > rare book dealers.
 >
 > One insisted: "If a book says 'First Edition' and has a
 > sequence of numbers or letters beginning with a '1' or
 > sometimes an 'A' at the LEFT, it is likely a first edition,
 > except with Random House, which begins the sequence with a
 > '2'."
 >
 > That sounds simple enough. Unfortunately, another dealer
 > snorts that the statement above is "hooey." The second
 > dealer insists: "The '1' or the 'A' does not have to
 > be at the left at all. If the book says 'First Edition'
 > and has a '1' or an 'A' (not counting '10's" and double
 > 'A's", of course) ANYPLACE in the print-sequence line,
 > then the book is a first edition."
 >
 > Who is right? Or are they both wrong?
 >
 > Is it possible that any reader can either a) refer me
 > to a non-nebulous website which clarifies print-sequence
 > numbers or letters with relation to first editions and
 > does so succinctly or b) is there any reader who can post
 > approximately one screen of information clarifying the
 > matter, perhaps in an explanation which would answer
 > the question regarding most books where publishers use
 > print-run numbers or letters, though there are usually
 > odd exceptions to everything, so I would not anticipate
 > a posted response which would help in one-hundred percent
 > of the cases.
 >
 >
 > Mr. Palmer
 > Room 314<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

Francis A. Miniter wrote (and I snipped a bunch)

 > Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. (Sample is A Case of Curiosities by Allen Kurzweil
 > (1992)). The copyright page reads (two lines):
 > First Edition
 > B C D E
 > That is directly in contrast to Random House. Whereas this sort of designation
 > at RH would guarantee you a first printing, here it means only a second printing.

I think in 1992 HBJ was still using "B C D E" on its first printings
although, IIRC, it subsequently went to "A B C D" (with the First
Edition statement). So, this particular book should be a first.

Jon, comment?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

"ann greenfield" wrote...
 > Francis A. Miniter wrote (and I snipped a bunch)
 >
  > > Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. (Sample is A Case of Curiosities by Allen
Kurzweil
  > > (1992)). The copyright page reads (two lines):
  > > First Edition
  > > B C D E
  > > That is directly in contrast to Random House. Whereas this sort of
designation
  > > at RH would guarantee you a first printing, here it means only a second
printing.
 >
 > I think in 1992 HBJ was still using "B C D E" on its first printings
 > although, IIRC, it subsequently went to "A B C D" (with the First
 > Edition statement). So, this particular book should be a first.
 >
 > Jon, comment?

I have a FP of the Kurzweil book, and there's an A in the line.

The HBJ change from B lines to A lines, which was very inconsistent, took
place about 10 years earlier. Harcourt Brace/HBJ is one publisher for which
McBride is singularly unhelpful--mostly because HB/HBJ was all over the
board: Sometimes A lines, sometimes B; sometimes the FE slug was removed for
later printings, sometimes it stayed. To ID the first printing of any title
before the early '90s--by which time *only* A lines were used--it's best to
know the characteristics of the particular book, although the presence of
the FE statement is *generally* a reliable indicator on these earlier books.


--
Jon Meyers
(To reply, lose
your way)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

Newbie here. I have started collecting Dick Francis hardbacks, any edition,
signed or not, but preferably from the UK. I recently purchased 4 from
people on Ebay who claimed they were first editions. Knowing I was taking
my chances, I bid on them and won. When they arrived, the copyright info
said,

First published in Great Britain 1996
Copyright (c) Dick Francis 1996

with the year varying by book.

There is no line of numbers and no clear-cut "First Edition" notation. I
emailed someone at Penguin's US offices, and the answer was vague, but
mostly negative. Since the publisher kindly included mailing addresses for
several locations (UK, US, AUS, NZ), I'm seriously considering sending a
photocopy of the page and the dustjacket along with a letter asking for an
explanation.In the future, I'd like to be able to ask the Ebay sellers for a
scan of this page to determine the accuracy of their claim.

Has anyone ever tried this approach?

Can anyone offer any insights on these particular books given the
information I've included here?

Mamie K. Anding
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

"Mamie K. Anding" <hannah67 RemoveThis @swbell.net> wrote in message
news:aOSqd.25087$fC4.23105@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
 > Newbie here. I have started collecting Dick Francis hardbacks, any
edition,
 > signed or not, but preferably from the UK. I recently purchased 4 from
 > people on Ebay who claimed they were first editions. Knowing I was
taking
 > my chances, I bid on them and won. When they arrived, the copyright info
 > said,
 >
 > First published in Great Britain 1996
 > Copyright (c) Dick Francis 1996
 >
 > with the year varying by book.
 >
 > There is no line of numbers and no clear-cut "First Edition" notation.

...

I assume that what you mean by the above, is that the copyright info
said,

First published in Great Britain 19XX
Copyright (c) Dick Francis 19XX

with the XX varying according to the book ?

The normal rule of thumb - at least used to be for pre numberline
books etc - is that in the absence of any evidence to the contrary
such a book can be taken to be a first edition.

Not all publishers use numberlines and in the absence of specific
evidence to the contrary i.e. "second edition" "second printing"
etc the above description would lead you to suppose these were
indeed UK firsts.

If you don't mind me asking, what other notation - apart from a
numberline were you expecting ? As this varies from publisher
to publisher in any case.

Possibly one rule of thumb to follow when venturing into any new
area you're not sure of, is to make your first one or two purchases
from highly reputable dealers ( which you'll need to establish
for yourself ) and not worry too much about the price at that
stage. As then at least you'll be certain of what you should be
looking for subsequently, and this should help you avoid costly
mistakes.

....

 > In the future, I'd like to be able to ask the Ebay sellers for a
 > scan of this page to determine the accuracy of their claim.
 >

....

The "accuracy of their claim" would depend on the notations used
particular publishers. All of which differ.

The point being, that you have to know what you're looking for before
you start. And be in a position to prove that you are correct.

Your problem is that while one "authority" - for the sake of argument
in a reference book selling at say $50 - might say a particular notation
denotes a first for a particular publisher - another authority in very
scarce book - an author bibliography selling at say $200, might say it's
actually a second printing.

However a run-of-the-mill eBay vendor is under no real obligation to
keep up to date with all such specialist information. And can presumably
make a good living without doing so. If that's what you require then
you'll need to buy exclusively from professional and specialist dealers
I'm afraid.


michael adams

....



 > Has anyone ever tried this approach?
 >
 > Can anyone offer any insights on these particular books given the
 > information I've included here?
 >
 > Mamie K. Anding
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

"Mamie K. Anding" <hannah67.RemoveThis@swbell.net> wrote in message news:<aOSqd.25087$fC4.23105@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>...
 > Newbie here. I have started collecting Dick Francis hardbacks, any edition,
 > signed or not, but preferably from the UK. I recently purchased 4 from
 > people on Ebay who claimed they were first editions. Knowing I was taking
 > my chances, I bid on them and won. When they arrived, the copyright info
 > said,
 >
 > First published in Great Britain 1996
 > Copyright (c) Dick Francis 1996
 >
 > with the year varying by book.
 >
 > There is no line of numbers and no clear-cut "First Edition" notation. I
 > emailed someone at Penguin's US offices, and the answer was vague, but
 > mostly negative. Since the publisher kindly included mailing addresses for
 > several locations (UK, US, AUS, NZ), I'm seriously considering sending a
 > photocopy of the page and the dustjacket along with a letter asking for an
 > explanation.In the future, I'd like to be able to ask the Ebay sellers for a
 > scan of this page to determine the accuracy of their claim.
 >
 > Has anyone ever tried this approach?
 >
 > Can anyone offer any insights on these particular books given the
 > information I've included here?
 >
 > Mamie K. Anding

According to McBride, Penguin books published in the UK use "Published
in Great Britain and year" with no other indication of printings to
designate a first edition. It appears the books you have are a first
edition. Alternately, they may use the phrase, "First Published
(year)" with a number sequence.

Art Layton
Stamford CT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette.. 

"Art Layton" <shebadog.DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3d156562.0411300509.62c33a16@posting.google.com...
 > "Mamie K. Anding" <hannah67.DeleteThis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:<aOSqd.25087$fC4.23105@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>...
  > > Newbie here. I have started collecting Dick Francis hardbacks, any
edition,
  > > signed or not, but preferably from the UK. I recently purchased 4 from
  > > people on Ebay who claimed they were first editions. Knowing I was
taking
  > > my chances, I bid on them and won. When they arrived, the copyright
info
  > > said,
  > >
  > > First published in Great Britain 1996
  > > Copyright (c) Dick Francis 1996
  > >
  > > with the year varying by book.
  > >
  > > There is no line of numbers and no clear-cut "First Edition" notation.
I
  > > emailed someone at Penguin's US offices, and the answer was vague, but
  > > mostly negative. Since the publisher kindly included mailing addresses
for
  > > several locations (UK, US, AUS, NZ), I'm seriously considering sending
a
  > > photocopy of the page and the dustjacket along with a letter asking for
an
  > > explanation.In the future, I'd like to be able to ask the Ebay sellers
for a
  > > scan of this page to determine the accuracy of their claim.
  > >
  > > Has anyone ever tried this approach?
  > >
  > > Can anyone offer any insights on these particular books given the
  > > information I've included here?
  > >
  > > Mamie K. Anding
 >
 > According to McBride, Penguin books published in the UK use "Published
 > in Great Britain and year" with no other indication of printings to
 > designate a first edition. It appears the books you have are a first
 > edition. Alternately, they may use the phrase, "First Published
 > (year)" with a number sequence.

....

All Dick Francis UK hardbacks up until 1997 at least, were published
by Michael Joseph.

The OP presumably contacted the NY Penguin Office, because Michael
Joseph are part of the Penguin Group, having been taken over in
the 1980's. So whether they'd be of much help is another matter.

michael adams

....




 >
 > Art Layton
 > Stamford CT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: (First Edition) Sequence of Printing numbers (and/or lette..