Elf, Elven, Elvish as adjectives

The Consigliere (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
<Xns94CE6B2A1CB3ATheConsigliereHotmai RemoveThis @203.26.24.228> thusly:

 > Are there any rules to using the words Elf-, Elven and Elvish as
 > adjectives? As far as I can tell Tolkien seems to use them
 > interchangeably.

It's just a gut reaction.

"Elvish" may be regarded as a neutral form, "elven" sounds a bit more
archaic and/or poetic, "elf" as an adjective sounds a tad too casual or
careless.

There's also an implied difference in the speaker's thoughs touching the
Fair Folk. Again, "elvish" is a neutral form, "elven" has an air of respect
or deference to it, "elf-" by contrast sounds contemptuous or dismissive.

--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!

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 >> Stay informed about: Elf, Elven, Elvish as adjectives 

The Consigliere <the_consigliere.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94CE6B2A1CB3ATheConsigliereHotmai.TakeThisOut@203.26.24.228>...
 > Are there any rules to using the words Elf-, Elven and Elvish as
 > adjectives? As far as I can tell Tolkien seems to use them interchangeably.

The plural of elf is elves, not elfs. Elf is an archaic word (orig.
spelled aelf or alf) that occurs in Old Norse and Old English texts.

The rules for elf are, therefore, somewhat arcane in themselves.

I'd argue that an Elf-Lord is ok (singular), but you need to use
Elven-Lords
when talking about plural. Likewise for other words.

Elvish (that which seems elven or has the likeness of being elven)
seems an overly convoluted way to obscure what you're saying and
Tolkein's use is often by non-elves talking derisavly about elven
matters. I'd avoid it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Elf, Elven, Elvish as adjectives 

"Jonathan Day" <imipak.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >The plural of elf is elves, not elfs. Elf is an archaic word (orig.
 >spelled aelf or alf) that occurs in Old Norse and Old English texts.
 >
 >The rules for elf are, therefore, somewhat arcane in themselves.
 >
 >I'd argue that an Elf-Lord is ok (singular), but you need to use
 >Elven-Lords when talking about plural. Likewise for other words.

It's a little dangerous to reason in this way. Tolkien broke the
rules by using "Dwarves" instead of the correct "Dwarfs", as he
himself admitted in a letter. Yet now most people probably regard
"Dwarves" as correct and "Dwarfs" as wrong.

As for "Elf-lords" in particular, that form occurs 5 times in LotR
and Elven-lords occurs but once.

Regardless of English usage -- and I'm not sure I agree with you
about "Elf-lords" even in English -- regardless of that, I think
within a Tolkien context we have to accept his own spellings.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
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 >> Stay informed about: Elf, Elven, Elvish as adjectives 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:MPG.1aed08384e97289c98c248@news.odyssey.net:

 > Tolkien broke the rules by using "Dwarves" instead of the correct
 > "Dwarfs", as he himself admitted in a letter. Yet now most people
 > probably regard "Dwarves" as correct and "Dwarfs" as wrong.

I don't think the term 'dwarfs' are correct usage for Tolkien's
particular purpose. Here are some interesting quotes:

From Letter #236
"I deliberately used _dwarves_ etc. for a special purpose and effect -
that it has an effect can be gauged by comparing the passages with
substitutes _dwarfs_, especially in verse. Of course I do not expect
compositors of proof-readers to know that, or to know anything about the
history of the word 'dwarf'; but I should have thought it might have
occurred, if not to a compositor at least to a reader, that the author
would not have used consistently getting on for 300 times a particular
form, nor would your readers have passed it, if it was a mere casual
mistake in 'grammar'."

From LotR Appendix F:
"It may be observed that in this book as in _The Hobbits_ the form
_dwarves_ is use, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural...is
_dwarfs_. It should be _dwarrows_ (or _dwerrows_), if singular and
plural had each gone its own way down the years...memories have not been
fresh enough among Men to keep hold of the special plural for a race now
abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of the truth is
preserved...But in the Third Age something of their old character and
power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed; these are the
descendants of the Naugrim of the Eldar Days, in whose hearts still burn
the fire of Aulë the Smith, and the embers smoulder of their long grudge
against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in work of
stone that none have surpassed.
"It is to mark this that I have used the form _dwarves_, and remove
them a little from the sillier tales of these latter days."

I had always taken dwarfs = short humans and dwarve = Khazad.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Elf, Elven, Elvish as adjectives 

imipak RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Jonathan Day) wrote in
news:ae9c8308.0404181700.78f5d1b6@posting.google.com:

 > Tolkein's use is often by non-elves talking derisavly about elven
 > matters. I'd avoid it.

I am not so sure. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it is
quite complementary. Here are a two examples:

"He stood still enchanted, while the sweet syllables of the elvish song
fell like clear jewels of blended word and melody."

"The Elves spread for them a pavilion among the trees near the fountain,
and in ti they laid soft couches; then speaking words of peace in fair
elvish voices they left them."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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