Elric and the Elves

Gregory Hernandez wrote:

> I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord of
> the Rings. My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there
> some way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves
> in any way?

Sure if you want...

> The reason i ask is that Moorcock's elves originally come from another
> plane of existence, they became lost and wound up on the plane where they
> set up
> the first kingdom, which they rule for 10,000 years. They have an
> extraordinary knowledge of magic and can communicate with dragons and
> elementals.

There's some relationship (I know I just said this...). Moorcock's Elves
are related to Moorcock's Sidhe (Corum books), and the Sidhe come from
Gaelic mythology. Tolkien's mythology is more Germanic/Scandinavian, but
it's not as if he wasn't aware of the older myths of the British Isles.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

You're absolutely correct, the Sidhe were the ancestors of the
Melnibone'ans. I was wondering how the Sidhe came to the British Isles.

"Derek Broughton" <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:q92lj2-59b.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Gregory Hernandez wrote:
>
>> I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord
>> of
>> the Rings. My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there
>> some way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves
>> in any way?
>
> Sure if you want...
>
>> The reason i ask is that Moorcock's elves originally come from another
>> plane of existence, they became lost and wound up on the plane where they
>> set up
>> the first kingdom, which they rule for 10,000 years. They have an
>> extraordinary knowledge of magic and can communicate with dragons and
>> elementals.
>
> There's some relationship (I know I just said this...). Moorcock's Elves
> are related to Moorcock's Sidhe (Corum books), and the Sidhe come from
> Gaelic mythology. Tolkien's mythology is more Germanic/Scandinavian, but
> it's not as if he wasn't aware of the older myths of the British Isles.
> --
> derek
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:17:11 -0700, R. Dan Henry
<danhenry.RemoveThis@inreach.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:46:18 GMT, "Gregory Hernandez"
><gregrosa.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord of
>>the Rings.
>
>Yes.
>
>>My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there some
>>way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves in any
>>way?
>
>There are no Elves in Moorcock's books, so no.

In the Corum books, the Sidhe are often referred to by the common folk
as elves. So their are "elves" in those books, even if the race in
question don't call themselves that.
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

It could be so I have to deal with an ignorant cuss such as yourself. Have
a nice day.
> Are you planning on writing some excruciatingly bad Middle-Earth/Young
> Kingdoms crossover fan-fic? I admit I'm at a loss as to what other
> motivation might be behind such a question.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

Thanks for saying it better than I did.

I got to thinking about the elves/sidhe/melnibone'ans question after posting
my query as to whether any of the correspondence between the two men had
ever seen the light of day (which I gather the answer was no).

I also wonder if Mervyn Peake and Tolkien knew (or knew OF) each other. I
don't have any reason to suppose that they did, but again just curious.

GRH

"NobodyMan" <none.TakeThisOut@none.net> wrote in message
news:oulg61ltshqrlkqvg585bn2steiqlejq8r@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:17:11 -0700, R. Dan Henry
> <danhenry.TakeThisOut@inreach.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:46:18 GMT, "Gregory Hernandez"
>><gregrosa.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord
>>>of
>>>the Rings.
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>>My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there some
>>>way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves in
>>>any
>>>way?
>>
>>There are no Elves in Moorcock's books, so no.
>
> In the Corum books, the Sidhe are often referred to by the common folk
> as elves. So their are "elves" in those books, even if the race in
> question don't call themselves that.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

Gregory Hernandez wrote:

> I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord of
> the Rings. My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there
> some way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves
> in any way?

Well, if you've ever read Moorcock's first novel, "The Eternal Champion",
you'll know that there are a species of immortal (but killable) and
incredably beautiful humanoids calling themselves the Eldren. They belong
there but have links to the Ghostworlds, from whence came the humans, a few
millions years back.

And in "The Revenge of the Rose", the Eldren princess is assisted by the
Melnibonaean Emperor in getting revenge on Gaynor the Damned for his
genocide of the Eldren in her world.
>
> The reason i ask is that Moorcock's elves originally come from another
> plane of existence, they became lost and wound up on the plane where they
> set up
> the first kingdom, which they rule for 10,000 years. They have an
> extraordinary knowledge of magic and can communicate with dragons and
> elementals.

In the last novel in the three-book collection "The Eternal Champion",
Erekose assists the Eldren women, somewhat mutated by their habited of
interbreeding with human males just to keep their numbers up, to make the
jump through the soace-time continuum to the world where they will become
the Melnibonaeans.
>
> Sign me curious,
> Curious George, er, Greg

I doubt that you can make a worthwhile "connection" between the Eldar and
the Eldren - for a start, the Eldren are armed with what looks like lasers
and plasma-cannon, while the Eldar are armed with swords and bows with
surprising capabilities. And the Eldar are part of Eru's plan though
without the full liberty of humanity which is above the path laid out for
everybody else, etc, while the Eldren live in a multiverse threatened in
equal measure by Chaos - nothing follows in any orderly way - and Law -
everything follows without exception in the dead, unchanging paths of the
past.

Better to plow your own fields.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

> Gregory Hernandez wrote:
>
>> I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord
>> of
>> the Rings. My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there
>> some way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age elves
>> in any way?

To which "Tux Wonder-Dog" responded:
> Well, if you've ever read Moorcock's first novel, "The Eternal Champion",
> you'll know that there are a species of immortal (but killable) and
> incredably beautiful humanoids calling themselves the Eldren. They belong
> there but have links to the Ghostworlds, from whence came the humans, a
> few
> millions years back.

I've read most of MM's books and all of his genre work. I knew about the
Eldren. I was wondering if in Tolkien's corpus there was any analogue to
the ghost worlds or any mention of a cadre of Elven warriors that had gone
missing. Actually, I hadn't thought that far ahead with it. It was a mild
curiosity stemming from the two races being somewhat generically similar, as
below.

>> GRH:
>> The reason i ask is that Moorcock's elves originally come from another
>> plane of existence, they became lost and wound up on the plane where they
>> set up
>> the first kingdom, which they rule for 10,000 years. They have an
>> extraordinary knowledge of magic and can communicate with dragons and
>> elementals.

> "Tux Wonder-Dog"
>[snip]
> And the Eldar are part of Eru's plan though
> without the full liberty of humanity which is above the path laid out for
> everybody else, etc, while the Eldren live in a multiverse threatened in
> equal measure by Chaos - nothing follows in any orderly way - and Law -
> everything follows without exception in the dead, unchanging paths of the
> past.

That is an EXCELLENT point. thank you. They are cosmologically
incompatible.

> Better to plow your own fields.
>
> Wesley Parish
> --

Again, just idle curiosity. But thanks again.
GRH
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves 

Gregory Hernandez wrote:

>> Gregory Hernandez wrote:
>>
>>> I would be curious if anyone has read both the Elric books and the Lord
>>> of
>>> the Rings. My curiosity stems from a hypothetical question: is there
>>> some way for Moorcock's race of Elves to be tied into the First age
>>> elves in any way?
>
> To which "Tux Wonder-Dog" responded:
>> Well, if you've ever read Moorcock's first novel, "The Eternal Champion",
>> you'll know that there are a species of immortal (but killable) and
>> incredably beautiful humanoids calling themselves the Eldren. They
>> belong there but have links to the Ghostworlds, from whence came the
>> humans, a few
>> millions years back.
>
> I've read most of MM's books and all of his genre work. I knew about the
> Eldren. I was wondering if in Tolkien's corpus there was any analogue to
> the ghost worlds or any mention of a cadre of Elven warriors that had gone
> missing. Actually, I hadn't thought that far ahead with it. It was a
> mild curiosity stemming from the two races being somewhat generically
> similar, as below.

No, the nearest Tolkien ever came to that was the split between the Eldar
and the Avari, with the Eldar being known and the Avari still wandering
around the vast East.

But they're Elven wanderers, not Ghostworld inhabitors.
>
>>> GRH:
>>> The reason i ask is that Moorcock's elves originally come from another
>>> plane of existence, they became lost and wound up on the plane where
>>> they set up
>>> the first kingdom, which they rule for 10,000 years. They have an
>>> extraordinary knowledge of magic and can communicate with dragons and
>>> elementals.
>
>> "Tux Wonder-Dog"
>>[snip]
>> And the Eldar are part of Eru's plan though
>> without the full liberty of humanity which is above the path laid out for
>> everybody else, etc, while the Eldren live in a multiverse threatened in
>> equal measure by Chaos - nothing follows in any orderly way - and Law -
>> everything follows without exception in the dead, unchanging paths of the
>> past.
>
> That is an EXCELLENT point. thank you. They are cosmologically
> incompatible.
>
>> Better to plow your own fields.
>>
>> Wesley Parish
>> --
>
> Again, just idle curiosity. But thanks again.
> GRH

Well, for what it's worth, I wrote an entire novel based in major part on a
few sentences Tolkien wrote about the relationship between his Orcs and his
Druedain. I switched things around a bit, putting the resulting creatures
in Alpha Centauri, made up my own languages for them, and called them
Lakhabrech - Free Blood, versus their ancient progenitors Nu Ineya
Khara-Ansha the people of the sacred hunt; also threw in Rakhebuityan -
fisheaters, for good measure, and included Aknereyazh - the Bone Quarters,
including Ilin Aknereyazh - the Walled Bone Quarters, just to keep it
interesting.

Plowing your own field can be a whole lot of fun - even with the acorns and
cornseed provided by the Master Arborist.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Elric and the Elves