Elves and Original Sin

On Thu, 26 May 2005 14:38:47 -0400,
Robert J. Kolker <nowhere RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> Were the elves who were born after the first elves awoke (I assume this
> was primordial creation by Eru), free of Original Sin? We know of elves
> who were nasty and bad, but these "sins" arise through choice, whereas
> the sin of Man is uncondtional on choice, hence the necessity of
> salvation through Christ.

I think it's important here to point out that though JRRT did refer to the
Elves as being like Unfallen men, it's very clear that the nature of the
Fall is summed up in Arda Marred. Though the Elves may have been less
tainted by this outflow of Melkor's power into Arda, they still were (as can
be seen by the sad tale of Finwe and Miriel) affected by it. Men, who had
been awakened and then deprived of any guidance by the Valar, were left to
the devices of Melkor. To some respect I really think the Valar have to be
blamed.

--
mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com
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AC wrote:

>
> I think it's important here to point out that though JRRT did refer to the
> Elves as being like Unfallen men, it's very clear that the nature of the
> Fall is summed up in Arda Marred. Though the Elves may have been less
> tainted by this outflow of Melkor's power into Arda, they still were (as can
> be seen by the sad tale of Finwe and Miriel) affected by it. Men, who had
> been awakened and then deprived of any guidance by the Valar, were left to
> the devices of Melkor. To some respect I really think the Valar have to be
> blamed.

The Valar made two mistakes. One, they did not deal very well with Men
so that a rift grew between Men and Elves. The envy of immortality that
Men had lead to the downfall of Numenor and the removal of the Valar
from the world. Second, they coddled the elves, but attempting to bring
them to a sheltered environment. Perhaps if the Valar has left the elves
more alone to do what had to be done, the elves could have gotten the
strength to fight Melkor/Morgoth more effectively. Also the elves could
have been more helpful to men and could have aided men in accepting
their Gift more gracefully.

It would go like this: men seeing the beauty and grace of the elves,
rather than envying the elves could have realized that men had to
special in their own way. That is why Eru arranged for men to have a
career opportunity that even immortal elves could not acquire. So men
would be happy with their lot and be able to rejoice in the beauty and
grace of the elves without rancor. Beautifying the world (the physical
realm) was the main task of the Elves. Going even beyond the world was
the opportunity that Men had. They would find out their task when they
got there. But that required trust in Eru, and that men did not develop
because they were exposed to the bad influence of Morgoth.

Here is how it should have gone.

1. The Elves, with the aid of the Valar put down Morgoth.

2. The Elves do their thing and make the world a great place to live.

3. Men exposed to the influence of Elves come to understand that Eru has
provided for them by giving them a world made wholesome by the Elves as
a training environment for their ultimate careers Elsewhere. So Men love
Eru and their older brothers the Elves. The Elves love Eru for the
chance to make the world what it should be and to launch Men on their
ultimate careers. Everybody gets something good out of it, and no one is
shortchanged. But that is not how it came down and the Valar are to
blame for it, so you are right.

Please help me with a memory check here. Didn't Mandos in his role as
DoomSayer and Prophet of the Valar, raise a worry and a second thought
about bringing the Elves out of Middle Earth to Valinor? Didn't he say
something like - I have a bad feeling about this?

The Valar were being a bit self indulgent. They wanted all those pretty
Elves for themselves.

Bob Kolker
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Robert J. Kolker wrote:

> Here is how it should have gone.
>
> 1. The Elves, with the aid of the Valar put down Morgoth.
>
> 2. The Elves do their thing and make the world a great place to live.
<snip>

Would it really be so great, tho? I think it would be quite boring.

My reading of the Sil, especially the description of the creation song
lead me to believe that Eru thought Melkor's influence was absolutely
essential to the perfection and completeness of the world.

Eru made Melkor, after all.

There is one point in the story where Eru points out to Ulmo regarding
all the interesting forms that water takes that is directly due to
Melkor's effect in the world (ice, snow, clouds).

Anyway, my ultimate point is: yeah, evil is bad, but Eru added it
(Melkor) and its corrupting influence to the world to allow the Children
(Elves and Men) to reach far greater heights and complexity than they
could have reached without it. You must have a goal in life, a
struggle, to reach your full potential --there must be things to overcome.

And in a sense, Eru is right, isn't he?

If the Valor just take out Melkor in the beginning, and make a paradise
for both Elves and Men (Garden of Eden), isn't that boring?

The whole "why does God allow Satan to exist" argument in Christianity
almost an exact parallel, and can be answered in similar manner.

jP
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 >> Stay informed about: Elves and Original Sin 

jP wrote:
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>
>> Here is how it should have gone.
>>
>> 1. The Elves, with the aid of the Valar put down Morgoth.
>>
>> 2. The Elves do their thing and make the world a great place to live.
>
> <snip>
>
> Would it really be so great, tho? I think it would be quite boring.
>
> My reading of the Sil, especially the description of the creation song
> lead me to believe that Eru thought Melkor's influence was absolutely
> essential to the perfection and completeness of the world.
>
> Eru made Melkor, after all.
>
> There is one point in the story where Eru points out to Ulmo regarding
> all the interesting forms that water takes that is directly due to
> Melkor's effect in the world (ice, snow, clouds).
>
> Anyway, my ultimate point is: yeah, evil is bad, but Eru added it
> (Melkor) and its corrupting influence to the world to allow the Children
> (Elves and Men) to reach far greater heights and complexity than they
> could have reached without it. You must have a goal in life, a
> struggle, to reach your full potential --there must be things to overcome.
>
> And in a sense, Eru is right, isn't he?
>
> If the Valor just take out Melkor in the beginning, and make a paradise
> for both Elves and Men (Garden of Eden), isn't that boring?
>
> The whole "why does God allow Satan to exist" argument in Christianity
> almost an exact parallel, and can be answered in similar manner.
>
> jP
For a similar take, see Milton's Paradise Lost
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Stan Brown wrote:

> On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:53:50 GMT, Alison <news.poster.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I've always thought that the Vanyar must have had a pretty boring
>>life; sitting at Manwe's feet and making beautiful songs must have
>>begun to pall after the first couple of millennia.
>
> Yet this is _precisely_ what Christians expect as their reward in
> the afterlife.

No, that's what _some_ Christians expect as their reward in the afterlife.
--
derek
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Larry Swain wrote:

>
>
> jP wrote:
>> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>>
>>> Here is how it should have gone.
>>>
>>> 1. The Elves, with the aid of the Valar put down Morgoth.
>>>
>>> 2. The Elves do their thing and make the world a great place to live.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Would it really be so great, tho? I think it would be quite boring.
>>
>> My reading of the Sil, especially the description of the creation song
>> lead me to believe that Eru thought Melkor's influence was absolutely
>> essential to the perfection and completeness of the world.
>>
>> Eru made Melkor, after all.
>>
>> There is one point in the story where Eru points out to Ulmo regarding
>> all the interesting forms that water takes that is directly due to
>> Melkor's effect in the world (ice, snow, clouds).
>>
>> Anyway, my ultimate point is: yeah, evil is bad, but Eru added it
>> (Melkor) and its corrupting influence to the world to allow the Children
>> (Elves and Men) to reach far greater heights and complexity than they
>> could have reached without it. You must have a goal in life, a
>> struggle, to reach your full potential --there must be things to
>> overcome.
>>
>> And in a sense, Eru is right, isn't he?
>>
>> If the Valor just take out Melkor in the beginning, and make a paradise
>> for both Elves and Men (Garden of Eden), isn't that boring?
>>
>> The whole "why does God allow Satan to exist" argument in Christianity
>> almost an exact parallel, and can be answered in similar manner.
>>
>> jP
> For a similar take, see Milton's Paradise Lost

Also, "Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon. Except that the Starmaker is
itself/himself/whatever, striving for perfection as well - so Stapledon
wins on moral grandeur.

Wesley Parish
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
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