Empire of man series

On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:08:08 +1000, "GrahamM" <not.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:

>Just a question regarding this series. Have read it through twice and a
>glaring omission always sticks out at me.
>
>In the book they are always going on about preserving ammunition, and
>sticking to swords, all the time getting chopped up in close combat.
>What about one of the greatest additions to the service of combat... the bow
>and arrow ?
>
>Would have made it a lot easier.
>
>
two problems off the top of the head being that not very many woods
make good bows and composite bows are fairly complex things to make.
they could probably learn to use bows fast enough to be ok with them
but how would you keep the strings dry in that wretched climate.
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There are other ways of making bows other than using wood. Not as good,
maybe, but still useable.
Same applied to bowstrings.
But the problem is that, for a group loaded with historical weapons
information, and the knowledge that bows can be constructed from materials
that do not rot or degrade in bad weather, it was not even raised as an
option at all.


"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5s2s53t9ied0s1ht1r0qvna25r4i1m3tgf@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:08:08 +1000, "GrahamM" <not.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Just a question regarding this series. Have read it through twice and a
>>glaring omission always sticks out at me.
>>
>>In the book they are always going on about preserving ammunition, and
>>sticking to swords, all the time getting chopped up in close combat.
>>What about one of the greatest additions to the service of combat... the
>>bow
>>and arrow ?
>>
>>Would have made it a lot easier.
>>
>>
> two problems off the top of the head being that not very many woods
> make good bows and composite bows are fairly complex things to make.
> they could probably learn to use bows fast enough to be ok with them
> but how would you keep the strings dry in that wretched climate.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire of man series 

GrahamM wrote:

> What about one of the greatest additions to the service of combat... the bow
> and arrow ?

A simple self bow here on earth is for small game. Better bows take a
long time to make.

They might have been able to find something to use to make a good bow,
but that would take time they did not really have.

Now, a spear thrower would have been possible. I don't know how much use
it would be in that dense a forest.
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On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:28:50 +1000, "Graham M" <me RemoveThis @you.com> wrote:

>There are other ways of making bows other than using wood. Not as good,
>maybe, but still useable.
>Same applied to bowstrings.
>But the problem is that, for a group loaded with historical weapons
>information, and the knowledge that bows can be constructed from materials
>that do not rot or degrade in bad weather, it was not even raised as an
>option at all.
>
weapons like that would seem to call for something of an industrial
base. they were pretty much limited to what they could lug about and
even then i wouldn't think it likely the pinnaces they came down in
would have had machine shops etc.
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U¿ytkownik "GrahamM" <not.TakeThisOut@home.com> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:bF77i.36299$ak7.9693@newsfe15.ams...
> Just a question regarding this series. Have read it through twice and a
> glaring omission always sticks out at me.
>
> In the book they are always going on about preserving ammunition, and
> sticking to swords, all the time getting chopped up in close combat.
> What about one of the greatest additions to the service of combat... the
> bow and arrow ?
Archers are dangerous in one case. When enemy cannot get close to them.
You need infantry able to stop enemy at last for a some time or some kind
of fortification. I don't think that was the case. Guys were on the move
most
of the time. In addition training in archery took years.
Crossbow wasn't 'devil's weapon' because of it's supposed penetration
of armor. It was dangerous because it took few month to train a guy to use
it properly and training of bowman took lifetime. For nobles it was
nightmare
that some trained for a few months farmer could kill someone who trained
entire life. Crossbow had low rate of fire so it was better for defence
in castles not for battlefield.
First firearms were worse then bows and crossbows in range and accuracy,
but... it was very easy to train people in using them. You could train more
people in shorter time...
"Quantity has quality of it's own" or something...

> Would have made it a lot easier.
Only if they spend their time behind the walls.

P.S.First human kills were by stones or some another projectiles. Greatest
addition in human history of warfare was close combat. Most people still
has problem with killing in 'man to man' when they don't have problem
with pulling the trigger. That's also why shock tactic works.
P.S.2. English isn't my native so... sorry

--
Leslaw Budkiewicz / Grumman
S.W.A.T. Aero-Space Section
Official the normalest being in
South-Western Anime Team.
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Brian McDonald <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote on Thu, 31 May
2007 23:52:05 GMT in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:28:50 +1000, "Graham M" <me DeleteThis @you.com> wrote:
>
>>There are other ways of making bows other than using wood. Not as good,
>>maybe, but still useable.
>>Same applied to bowstrings.
>>But the problem is that, for a group loaded with historical weapons
>>information, and the knowledge that bows can be constructed from materials
>>that do not rot or degrade in bad weather, it was not even raised as an
>>option at all.
>>
>weapons like that would seem to call for something of an industrial
>base. they were pretty much limited to what they could lug about and
>even then i wouldn't think it likely the pinnaces they came down in
>would have had machine shops etc.

Bows can be made, but bowmen are born. You start with the
grandfather ... .

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
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On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:15:51 +0200, "L.B. / Grumman"
<grumman.RemoveThis@poczta.no-spam.onet.pl> wrote:

In addition training in archery took years.
>

there's a guy in britain who does tv shows about training modern men
as various sorts of ancient soldiers/warriors. one show he did was
english longbowmen. he takes a month with a crew of volunteers and
while none of the guys were going to be mistaken for a robin hood
clone they could reliably hit a figure of a mounted man at 75 or 100
yards and they could drop arrows into a formation at over twice that.
they lacked the physical conditioning to pull a proper bow etc but a
single month made them "good enough".
 >> Stay informed about: Empire of man series 

Just only swords? Cetewayo the Zulu chief chose a spear with about a 6
foot shaft and a foot long blade for his armies after running a real
life service test involving a couple hundred of his own troops, one
team with the short spear, the other with a long one.. The short spear
won out (bloodily) over the long one.
And there's atlatls and slings, just to throw two more ranged weapons
into the pile. As a kid I got pretty good with a sling and in college
I threw the javelin. Swords are fine in close but why not start
hurting the other guys out there before they get into sword range?
Walt BJ
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Gunfighter40 wrote:
> Just only swords? Cetewayo the Zulu chief chose a spear with about a 6
> foot shaft and a foot long blade for his armies after running a real
> life service test involving a couple hundred of his own troops, one
> team with the short spear, the other with a long one.. The short spear
> won out (bloodily) over the long one.

Pretty close to the bayonet.

> And there's atlatls and slings, just to throw two more ranged weapons
> into the pile. As a kid I got pretty good with a sling and in college
> I threw the javelin. Swords are fine in close but why not start
> hurting the other guys out there before they get into sword range?
> Walt BJ

Remember, the setting is Marduk, and the inhabited part they had to
travel through was dense jungle, inhabited by big natives and huge, and
armored, predators.

Short hafted halberds might have worked better than swords or spears,
but they had to be able to shift from firearm to "other", and a halberd
would be a dangerous thing to carry, or drop on your team mate.
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On Thu, 31 May 2007 23:52:05 GMT, Brian McDonald

>weapons like that would seem to call for something of an industrial
>base. they were pretty much limited to what they could lug about and
>even then i wouldn't think it likely the pinnaces they came down in
>would have had machine shops etc.

Even if they did have them, the machine shops were not fit into the
packs they carried (OK, maybe Poertena's Great big pocking pack)
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"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jlg9631h767pl1bej4f0i0nt9a8sohivs5@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:15:51 +0200, "L.B. / Grumman"
> <grumman.DeleteThis@poczta.no-spam.onet.pl> wrote:
>
> In addition training in archery took years.
>>
>
> there's a guy in britain who does tv shows about training modern men
> as various sorts of ancient soldiers/warriors. one show he did was
> english longbowmen. he takes a month with a crew of volunteers and
> while none of the guys were going to be mistaken for a robin hood
> clone they could reliably hit a figure of a mounted man at 75 or 100
> yards and they could drop arrows into a formation at over twice that.
> they lacked the physical conditioning to pull a proper bow etc but a
> single month made them "good enough".

My data is that these long bows weren't war bows. A warbow starts with a
draw weight of at least 120 pounds and goes up to the limit of human
ability. There is little point in having a force equiped with weapons (bows)
the other side's armor is largely going to negate. The same guy had a show
testing an ancient greek shield against a very good bow and the shield was
very effective. Only limited penitration, a few inches. They could have
withstood standing in the shade of clouds of arrows as the Greeks seem to
have done on occasion.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire of man series 

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:19:45 -0500, "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:jlg9631h767pl1bej4f0i0nt9a8sohivs5@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:15:51 +0200, "L.B. / Grumman"
>> <grumman.DeleteThis@poczta.no-spam.onet.pl> wrote:
>>
>> In addition training in archery took years.
>>>
>>
>> there's a guy in britain who does tv shows about training modern men
>> as various sorts of ancient soldiers/warriors. one show he did was
>> english longbowmen. he takes a month with a crew of volunteers and
>> while none of the guys were going to be mistaken for a robin hood
>> clone they could reliably hit a figure of a mounted man at 75 or 100
>> yards and they could drop arrows into a formation at over twice that.
>> they lacked the physical conditioning to pull a proper bow etc but a
>> single month made them "good enough".
>
>My data is that these long bows weren't war bows. A warbow starts with a
>draw weight of at least 120 pounds and goes up to the limit of human
>ability. There is little point in having a force equiped with weapons (bows)
>the other side's armor is largely going to negate. The same guy had a show
>testing an ancient greek shield against a very good bow and the shield was
>very effective. Only limited penitration, a few inches. They could have
>withstood standing in the shade of clouds of arrows as the Greeks seem to
>have done on occasion.
>

was talking about longbows on another board lately and it seems that
the standard issue english longbows were more like 90-100 lb based on
some bows they recovered from the mary rose. that should be well
within what a man can achieve in conditioning in 6-12 months say.
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"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:f8oe63956rpkklunaj5vdlbv7a9tvkc2bi@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:19:45 -0500, "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>news:jlg9631h767pl1bej4f0i0nt9a8sohivs5@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:15:51 +0200, "L.B. / Grumman"
>>> <grumman DeleteThis @poczta.no-spam.onet.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>> In addition training in archery took years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> there's a guy in britain who does tv shows about training modern men
>>> as various sorts of ancient soldiers/warriors. one show he did was
>>> english longbowmen. he takes a month with a crew of volunteers and
>>> while none of the guys were going to be mistaken for a robin hood
>>> clone they could reliably hit a figure of a mounted man at 75 or 100
>>> yards and they could drop arrows into a formation at over twice that.
>>> they lacked the physical conditioning to pull a proper bow etc but a
>>> single month made them "good enough".
>>
>>My data is that these long bows weren't war bows. A warbow starts with a
>>draw weight of at least 120 pounds and goes up to the limit of human
>>ability. There is little point in having a force equiped with weapons
>>(bows)
>>the other side's armor is largely going to negate. The same guy had a show
>>testing an ancient greek shield against a very good bow and the shield was
>>very effective. Only limited penitration, a few inches. They could have
>>withstood standing in the shade of clouds of arrows as the Greeks seem to
>>have done on occasion.
>>
>
> was talking about longbows on another board lately and it seems that
> the standard issue english longbows were more like 90-100 lb based on
> some bows they recovered from the mary rose. that should be well
> within what a man can achieve in conditioning in 6-12 months say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

If you have sources about this topic that I or these people don't know about
please feel free to share. Until you do I'm forced to conclude that a bow
like that is about good enough to get you seriously killed. Tests on
reproduction armor and shields dating back as far as the bronze age show
that the bows you are talking about failed to get the job done. This
strongly implies that a very seriously pissed off man with a stabbing spear
is going to get much closer to you than you ever wanted unless you can run
real fast.
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