The End of Eternity

In article <19da3134.0309020950.2887d3dc.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
Darth Nub <gonzo88888.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
 > Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
 > topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
 > whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?

 > I was a huge fan about a decade ago & have just come back to Asimov's
 > future history - I always thought the story of the Eternals was a part
 > of that universe, & still like to think so. Of course, being a time
 > travel story, it existed outside it, but the references within the
 > novel to the possibility of a Galactic Empire, plus the inclusion of
 > the good old Neuronic Whip seemed to plant it firmly within that
 > cosmos. The fable mentioned in Foundation & Earth seemed to confirm
 > its inclusion, at least as a story, & time travel did occur at least
 > once within the Empire, with Joseph Schwartz.

 > Now, however, I've looked up a few sites, & it seems the general
 > theory is that it's regarded as some sort of in-joke & nothing more. I
 > know Asimov wasn't all that concerned with continuity or canon, but I
 > bet he liked tying all the stories together, or he wouldn't have done
 > it.

 > Unfortunately, it's an unanswerable question - Asimov would no doubt
 > come up with some sort of smart-arsed riddle if he was around to be
 > asked, & the very nature of the story means that its events can
 > technically have no influence on the others, or at least not be shown
 > to.

 > Darth

Blatent self promotion mode on

If you look at my web site <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gctsmt.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gctsmt.demon.co.uk</a> you can see my attempt
at linking EoE to the rest of Asimov's work.

I hope you like it.

Blatent self promotion mode off

--
Greg Toland
mailto: greg.DeleteThis@gctsmt.demon.co.uk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Greg Toland <Greg.RemoveThis@gctsmt.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<4c2bd48d11Greg.RemoveThis@gctsmt.demon.co.uk>...
 > Blatent self promotion mode on
 >
 > If you look at my web site <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gctsmt.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gctsmt.demon.co.uk</a> you can see my attempt
 > at linking EoE to the rest of Asimov's work.
 >
 > I hope you like it.
 >
 > Blatent self promotion mode off


Very nice site.

Actually, regarding EoE's inclusion, by sheer coincidence today I
found a pretty definitive statement from Asimov himself in 'The
Alternate Asimovs'. In his afterword to the original novellete of EoE
he states:

"I wanted to tie it in with earlier books of mine dealing with the
rise & fall of the Galactic Empire. (It's a weakness of mine to try to
make my science fiction novels consistent with each other, & it
influences my writing to this very day.)"

I think that answers that. 'Nemesis', on the other hand...

Darth<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Hils wrote:
 >
 > Darth Nub <gonzo88888 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> writes
 >
  > >Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
  > >topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
  > >whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
 >
 > [snip]
 >
 > Hi! One way to see Eternity is as a parallel universe to that of the
 > robot and empire books, but not quite parallel in that they intersect in
 > a few places--which would itself be consistent with the work of the
 > Eternals. At the same time, the Galactic Empire may only have been able
 > to develop because of the destruction of Eternity.

Because, you know, that's what they said at the end of "The End of Eternity".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

In article <3F564EDE.401.TakeThisOut@telusplanet.net>, David Johnston <rgorman.TakeThisOut@telusplanet.net> wrote:

:> At the same time, the Galactic Empire may only have been able
:> to develop because of the destruction of Eternity.

: Because, you know, that's what they said at the end of "The End of Eternity".

In "Foundation's Edge" (IIRC -- I know it was one of the later books),
he mentions Eternity as a way of explaining why there are only humans in
the galaxy. The story as given in FE is inconsistent with the plot of the
novel. In the Foundation Universe version, the robots were responsible for
running Eternity. They realized (as the future Earth people in EoE) that
Eternity was a Bad Thing [tm], so they picked the least bad universe -- one
in which humans were the only intelligent life forms in the galaxy -- and
then did away with Eternity along with (?) themselves. (Golan Trevize
asks if the robots might no longer be serving humanity but rather ruling it.)

-----
Richard Schultz schultr.TakeThisOut@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
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Darth Nub wrote:

> Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> I was a huge fan about a decade ago & have just come back to Asimov's
> future history - I always thought the story of the Eternals was a part
> of that universe, & still like to think so. Of course, being a time
> travel story, it existed outside it, but the references within the
> novel to the possibility of a Galactic Empire, plus the inclusion of
> the good old Neuronic Whip seemed to plant it firmly within that
> cosmos. The fable mentioned in Foundation & Earth seemed to confirm
> its inclusion, at least as a story, & time travel did occur at least
> once within the Empire, with Joseph Schwartz.
>
> Now, however, I've looked up a few sites, & it seems the general
> theory is that it's regarded as some sort of in-joke & nothing more. I
> know Asimov wasn't all that concerned with continuity or canon, but I
> bet he liked tying all the stories together, or he wouldn't have done
> it.
>
> Unfortunately, it's an unanswerable question - Asimov would no doubt
> come up with some sort of smart-arsed riddle if he was around to be
> asked, & the very nature of the story means that its events can
> technically have no influence on the others, or at least not be shown
> to.

Noys Lambent did influence our history, by stimulating the discovery of
nuclear fission so that humanity would be distracted from ever discovering
Temporal Field Generators.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Darth Nub wrote:

> Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> I was a huge fan about a decade ago & have just come back to Asimov's
> future history - I always thought the story of the Eternals was a part
> of that universe, & still like to think so. Of course, being a time
> travel story, it existed outside it, but the references within the
> novel to the possibility of a Galactic Empire, plus the inclusion of
> the good old Neuronic Whip seemed to plant it firmly within that
> cosmos. The fable mentioned in Foundation & Earth seemed to confirm
> its inclusion, at least as a story, & time travel did occur at least
> once within the Empire, with Joseph Schwartz.
>
> Now, however, I've looked up a few sites, & it seems the general
> theory is that it's regarded as some sort of in-joke & nothing more. I
> know Asimov wasn't all that concerned with continuity or canon, but I
> bet he liked tying all the stories together, or he wouldn't have done
> it.
>
> Unfortunately, it's an unanswerable question - Asimov would no doubt
> come up with some sort of smart-arsed riddle if he was around to be
> asked, & the very nature of the story means that its events can
> technically have no influence on the others, or at least not be shown
> to.

According to Senior Computer Twissell, Eternity got started in the
following manner: A man named Brinsley Sheridan Cooper from the 78th
century was inducted into Eternity and was trained in mathematics by
Twissell, in Primitive History by Andrew Harlan, and in temporal
engineering by an unknown person. He was then sent back in time to the
24th century, where he tried to train Mallansohn in temporal engineering
so that he could invent a Temporal Field Generator. However, Mallansohn
died, so Cooper had to take his place and invent the generator himself.
After convincing others that the generator was for real, he worked with
California Institute of Technology to duplicate the generator, but didn't
dare give them information from the future, so couldn't teach them the
mathematics needed to create Eternity. Eventually, Cooper realized that
he WAS Mallansohn, and wrote a memoir that he left in a tube of Time
stasis. In the 27th century, the tube was opened by the first Computer
and the memoir read. Eventually, Twissell was given the memoir and put in
charge of the project to send Cooper back in time to invent the Temporal
Field Generator. The memoir, of course, gave Twissell much guidance in
how to send Cooper back in time. I wonder how the time loop ever got
started.
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Hils wrote:

> Darth Nub <gonzo88888 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes
>
> >Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> >topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> >whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> [snip]
>
> Hi! One way to see Eternity is as a parallel universe to that of the
> robot and empire books, but not quite parallel in that they intersect in
> a few places--which would itself be consistent with the work of the
> Eternals. At the same time, the Galactic Empire may only have been able
> to develop because of the destruction of Eternity.

Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
>to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
>million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!

While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
still be in charge.
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In article <4opke2dbm5is9n2fbfimj86p1q5mnf75a7 RemoveThis @4ax.com>, Howard Brazee <howard RemoveThis @brazee.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
><tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>>Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
>>to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
>>million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
>While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
>nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
>their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
>still be in charge.

The societies that tried for space travelling civilisations were found by
Eternity to be high drug using and eventually collapse due to Mankind being
locked in a virtually barren solar system. Eternity didn't select for a
civilisation that would see space as a proper challange, instead going for a
solution that appeared to give the widest satisfaction to the widest number of
people.



--
John Fairhurst
john RemoveThis @johnsbooks.co.uk
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/Books/Asimov
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Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

I have heard many politicians express opposition to wasting taxpayer money on
space when there are so many problems at home to solve. Few politicians can see
a decade into the future, let alone 12.5 million years!

Also, Noys said that the Eternals, by ironing out the disasters of Reality, had
also ruled out the triumphs, such as interstellar travel. In fact, Harlan
himself initiated a Reality Change that destroyed electrogravitic space travel,
as a side effect of reducing drug addiction. I don't know why reducing drug
addiction would destroy electrogravitic space travel. Maybe Hari Seldon would
know.
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Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

Noys didn't say that politicans would lose control if we took over the
galaxy.
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Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

Another issue: When Cooper found himself in the 20th century, he put an
ad in one of Harlan's favorite periodicals to attract his attention so
that Eternity could send a rescue mission. Cooper's ad read:

ALL THE
TALK
OF THE
MARKET

against the backdrop of the outline of an atomic bomb mushroom cloud.
This got Harlan's attention because of the word "ATOM" going down the
front and because of the mushroom cloud in a magazine issue dated March
28, 1932. (In the Eternity timeline, atomic bombs weren't detonated
until the 30th century!).

The ad also gave Cooper's address as "Investments Newsletter, P.O. Box
14, Denver Colorado". Why didn't the ad also list Cooper's name as an
additional flag to Harlan?

I wonder what people would have been investing in anyway? After all,
the U.S. was in a Great Depression!
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Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

Another issue: Eternity had a severe shortage of woman, but it had a
mass duplicator that could duplicate women. Why didn't the Eternals use
the mass duplicator to duplicate the prettiest women it could find in
Reality, or duplicate the women who do temp work for Eternity?

Why didn't the Eternals rescue women from the types of disasters that
destroy bodies?

Why didn't they import artificial wombs from the 482nd century and grow
female babies in them?
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