Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22)

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:00:39 -0000, Billy Bissette
<baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:1daac3d9n3ktdkrum52q1d5bo8rorvs3f6@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:10:00 -0000, Billy Bissette
>> <baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>>>news:gt99c3174ocdf3cslp9c449mobcl245ln0@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On 16 Aug 2007 17:02:21 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:hjm7c3146ve04ukoufr9a5m8ma4qbpimp2@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15 Aug 2007 05:21:17 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hey, I've successfully ignored the idea that
>>>>>>>Magneto-pretending-to-be-Xorn was actually
>>>>>>>Xorn-pretending-to-be-Magneto-pretending-to-be-Xorn for years now.
>>>>>>>Why change now? Incidentally, notice how unwieldy it gets when
>you
>>>>>>>add that extra layer of a guy *pretending* to be himself? It's
>like
>>>>>>>if I said I wasn't me but that I was someone else pretending to be
>>>me.
>>>>>>> It's nonsensical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll do you one better...I ignore all X-Men stories written by
>Grant
>>>>>> Morrison and Chuck Austen and, therefore, that particular problem
>>>has
>>>>>> never even come up for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, no, because that requires ignoring some of the best stories
>>>>>the X-Men have ever had. Morrison was what made me decide to read
>>>>>X-books again.
>>>>
>>>> That's your opinion...mine is that Morrison, while probably the most
>>>> immaginative writer in comics, is absolutely terrible at
>>>> characterization and, therefore, one of the worst things to ever
>>>> happen to the X-Men.
>>>
>>> Morrison's characterization ends up being pretty respectful of the
>>>X-Men and villains, and is probably better than many other writers
>>>to work on the various books.
>>
>> I think his characterization was terrible...his Cyclops was a
>> cold-hearted jerk in a complete reversal of what was going on with him
>> just prior to Morrison's run...
>
> His Cyclops was suffering from his recent merger with Apocalypse.
>This effect is even spelled out for the reader at times.

The problem here is that, prior to Morrison's run, Cyclops was
reacting to his merger with Apocalypse in a completely different
way...he was more emotional and impulsive...acting more like Wolverine
actually...which was forcing Wolverine to take on Cyclops' traditional
role...it was a great dynamic that was just dropped with Morrison came
on board. Also, the only thing that has always been consistent about
Cyclops no matter who was writing him up to this point was his love
for Jean...he's been so fixated on her it was actually annoying at
times and has caused him to do some seriously questionable things over
the years...and Morrison just has the whole thing fizzle out without
them ever even having an actual discussion about it? Crap.

>
> Later Milligan apparently takes this idea and runs with it for his
>Apocalypse arc, where Apocalypse shows lingering traces of Scott's
>humanity. Milligan went on to receive the same kind of heat Morrison
>did, which is a shame when both were simply using the X-series recent
>history to bring something new to their stories.

Did you miss the part where I said that one of the problems with
Morrison's run is that it caused other writers to emulate him?

>
>> his Wolverine was a total jack ass and he wasn't even consistent
>> in that. Wolvie pretty much spends every waking moment trying to
>> steal Jean, she finally gives in, and he rejects her...
>
> You don't know people like that? It isn't inconsistent. He didn't
>want Jean on those terms. I've known people like that. Heck, I've
>come pretty close to *doing* that once.

This doesn't make sense to me...Wolverine is trying to steal her away
for decades and she finally gives in...and he rejects her...how else
was this ever going to play out if he got what he wanted? It was
lame...and it made Jean look terrible...and I've never had much
respect for writers who choose to rehash this stupid love triangle
anyway...it makes all three characters look bad and it never goes
anywhere...and it was a retcon to begin with.

>
>> Jean was so indecisive and repressed that she was
>> utterly unlikeable and thoroughly annoying...Beast, and everyone else,
>> for that matter, seemed to have completely lost his mind...I can't
>> even describe the problems with Xavier...Emma was the only one I
>> thought he got right, more or less.
>
> Jean had issues due to Scott, and because of the gradual return of
>Phoenix Force powers.

Yes...and she just stuck her head in the sand to avoid dealing with
those issues until they finally came back to bite her...that's not
Jean's personality...she doesn't avoid conflict...traditionally, she's
been the first to call Scott out on his issues...I don't buy it.

>
> Beast had issues due to his secondary mutation affecting his work,
>his fear that he was devolving, and the pressure of trying to cure
>the Extinction gene.

Morrison's Beast might as well have been a completely new
character...because he bore no resemblance to the traditional Beast at
all...and I don't just mean his appearance...they were both
smart...and blue...that's where the similarities end.

>
> You can't describe the problems with Xavier? Xavier is at times
>something of a mess even outside Morrison's writing. He's a good guy,
>he's an idiot, he's got skeletons in his closet, he's part of the
>Illuminati, he's trying to promote mutants by hiding, etc. Some
>people also tend to give Morrison's Xavier an extra bad rap because
>they never caught when Cassandra swapped bodies with him (or only
>heard about it and never even read the books.)

Again, I refer to my comment about other writers emulating
Morrison...he made Xavier morally ambiguous and that kicked off
everything that has happened with him lately (Deadly Genesis,
Illuminati, etc.)...it'd be so much better to just kill him off and
end the character assassination now...actually, I've been saying it
was time to kill him off for years but whatever.

The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of Morrison's
run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to convince me
and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the point. We might
as well just agree to disagree.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:fu8cc31a92tq5ric9jf6vuk7rjeg81v27f@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:00:39 -0000, Billy Bissette
> <baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:

>> Later Milligan apparently takes this idea and runs with it for his
>>Apocalypse arc, where Apocalypse shows lingering traces of Scott's
>>humanity. Milligan went on to receive the same kind of heat Morrison
>>did, which is a shame when both were simply using the X-series recent
>>history to bring something new to their stories.
>
> Did you miss the part where I said that one of the problems with
> Morrison's run is that it caused other writers to emulate him?

So you'd rather have a generic boring return of Apocalypse storyline?
Scott-influenced Apocalypse was the best thing about that Milligan arc,
just as Morrison made X-Men interesting again for many readers.

>>> his Wolverine was a total jack ass and he wasn't even consistent
>>> in that. Wolvie pretty much spends every waking moment trying to
>>> steal Jean, she finally gives in, and he rejects her...
>>
>> You don't know people like that? It isn't inconsistent. He didn't
>>want Jean on those terms. I've known people like that. Heck, I've
>>come pretty close to *doing* that once.
>
> This doesn't make sense to me...Wolverine is trying to steal her away
> for decades and she finally gives in...and he rejects her...how else
> was this ever going to play out if he got what he wanted?

Wolverine hasn't really been trying to steal her away for decades.
It has been off and on (and there is inconsistency for you) as
writers and stories have changed.

So he's not obsessed with her. So it isn't strange that he'd be
able to reject her if she didn't come to him on terms he accepted.

As for not liking the triangle itself, Morrison has done you a favor
by hopefully killing it at least for a while. (At least until Marvel
decides to bring back Jean, turn Emma evil, and split Scott and Emma.
Which will likely somewhere also have Logan chasing Jean again.)

>> Jean had issues due to Scott, and because of the gradual return of
>>Phoenix Force powers.
>
> Yes...and she just stuck her head in the sand to avoid dealing with
> those issues until they finally came back to bite her...that's not
> Jean's personality...she doesn't avoid conflict...traditionally, she's
> been the first to call Scott out on his issues...I don't buy it.

Why not? It isn't often that she's worrying about Scott like that,
and less often when she is worrying about Scott and Emma. She had a
lot of things on her mind and affecting the way she thought.

And she did call Scott out on his issues. He blew her off. Then
she (understandably) jumped to conclusions, and the whole thing
exploded from there, exacerbated by all three involved. (Remember
also that Emma at the start was actively out to mess with Scott and
Jean. She was trying to cause trouble, and would have worked in ways
that would have kept it going.)

>> Beast had issues due to his secondary mutation affecting his work,
>>his fear that he was devolving, and the pressure of trying to cure
>>the Extinction gene.
>
> Morrison's Beast might as well have been a completely new
> character...because he bore no resemblance to the traditional Beast at
> all...and I don't just mean his appearance...they were both
> smart...and blue...that's where the similarities end.

Again, he had problems. He has had problems before. He had a lot
of problems here. To me, it worked and was logical.

> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of Morrison's
> run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to convince me
> and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the point. We might
> as well just agree to disagree.

I disagree.

:p
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:51:38 -0000, Billy Bissette
<baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon.RemoveThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:fu8cc31a92tq5ric9jf6vuk7rjeg81v27f@4ax.com:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:00:39 -0000, Billy Bissette
>> <baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:
>
>>> Later Milligan apparently takes this idea and runs with it for his
>>>Apocalypse arc, where Apocalypse shows lingering traces of Scott's
>>>humanity. Milligan went on to receive the same kind of heat Morrison
>>>did, which is a shame when both were simply using the X-series recent
>>>history to bring something new to their stories.
>>
>> Did you miss the part where I said that one of the problems with
>> Morrison's run is that it caused other writers to emulate him?
>
> So you'd rather have a generic boring return of Apocalypse storyline?
>Scott-influenced Apocalypse was the best thing about that Milligan arc,
>just as Morrison made X-Men interesting again for many readers.

I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
X-Men...as for the Scott-influenced Apocalypse bit, that is only what
people guessed is going on there...it was never said in the
story...only that he seemed different this time around...if anything,
it implied that he was different because of the Decimation and what
had happened to the mutants...it bugged me that, despite the history
with Cyclops, the two never even met in the story and Cyclops barely
even appeared or mentioned what had happened last time...it was a
thoroughly mediocre storyline...as was the rest of Milligan's
run...though it was an improvement on Chuck Austen.

>
>>>> his Wolverine was a total jack ass and he wasn't even consistent
>>>> in that. Wolvie pretty much spends every waking moment trying to
>>>> steal Jean, she finally gives in, and he rejects her...
>>>
>>> You don't know people like that? It isn't inconsistent. He didn't
>>>want Jean on those terms. I've known people like that. Heck, I've
>>>come pretty close to *doing* that once.
>>
>> This doesn't make sense to me...Wolverine is trying to steal her away
>> for decades and she finally gives in...and he rejects her...how else
>> was this ever going to play out if he got what he wanted?
>
> Wolverine hasn't really been trying to steal her away for decades.
>It has been off and on (and there is inconsistency for you) as
>writers and stories have changed.

It's been on pretty much anytime the two of them appeared in the same
book together.

>
> So he's not obsessed with her. So it isn't strange that he'd be
>able to reject her if she didn't come to him on terms he accepted.

Name another woman in his long history that he's devoted as much
attention too...he nearly married Mariko and she still only appeared
in a handful of stories and he wasn't nearly as affected by her death
as Jean's even though he himself has made jokes about how she refuses
to stay in her grave and will almost assuredly come back.

>
> As for not liking the triangle itself, Morrison has done you a favor
>by hopefully killing it at least for a while. (At least until Marvel
>decides to bring back Jean, turn Emma evil, and split Scott and Emma.
>Which will likely somewhere also have Logan chasing Jean again.)

Morrison accomplished very little in this regard as the triangle has
already come up two more times since her latest "death" (X-Men: The
End and Phoenix Endsong)...and it keeps popping up in Ultimate X-Men
as well.

I know she's likely to come back at some point but I still hope it
doesn't...they should have let Jean stay dead the first time...let it
go...I'm perfectly happy with her appearance in X-Men: First Class
minus all the drama.

>
>>> Jean had issues due to Scott, and because of the gradual return of
>>>Phoenix Force powers.
>>
>> Yes...and she just stuck her head in the sand to avoid dealing with
>> those issues until they finally came back to bite her...that's not
>> Jean's personality...she doesn't avoid conflict...traditionally, she's
>> been the first to call Scott out on his issues...I don't buy it.
>
> Why not? It isn't often that she's worrying about Scott like that,
>and less often when she is worrying about Scott and Emma. She had a
>lot of things on her mind and affecting the way she thought.

Oh please...every X-Man always has a lot on their mind and this
doesn't even approach all the drama from the early issues of X-Factor
and she was in Scott's face about everything all through
that...Morrison was just taking the typical "shock & awe" tact by
leaving a permanent mark on the book...that's what writers at Marvel
do these days...tear down anything that's lasted for any length of
time to leave their mark...and I'm sick of it.

>
> And she did call Scott out on his issues. He blew her off. Then
>she (understandably) jumped to conclusions, and the whole thing
>exploded from there, exacerbated by all three involved. (Remember
>also that Emma at the start was actively out to mess with Scott and
>Jean. She was trying to cause trouble, and would have worked in ways
>that would have kept it going.)

I've already said that Morrison got Emma right...I will never concede
on Scott or Jean...they both acted like petulant children all through
his run.

>
>>> Beast had issues due to his secondary mutation affecting his work,
>>>his fear that he was devolving, and the pressure of trying to cure
>>>the Extinction gene.
>>
>> Morrison's Beast might as well have been a completely new
>> character...because he bore no resemblance to the traditional Beast at
>> all...and I don't just mean his appearance...they were both
>> smart...and blue...that's where the similarities end.
>
> Again, he had problems. He has had problems before. He had a lot
>of problems here. To me, it worked and was logical.

How was this any worse than the other times he was mutated or
de-mutated over the decades?

>
>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of Morrison's
>> run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to convince me
>> and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the point. We might
>> as well just agree to disagree.
>
> I disagree.
>
>:p
>

Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon.DeleteThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:4jocc3p46kioi6hd88qqgdhva39mp3ajcq@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:51:38 -0000, Billy Bissette
> <baines.DeleteThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:

>> So you'd rather have a generic boring return of Apocalypse
>> storyline?
>>Scott-influenced Apocalypse was the best thing about that Milligan
>>arc, just as Morrison made X-Men interesting again for many readers.
>
> I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
> Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
> X-Men...

I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
About the only effect it's really had was to give Chamber powers so he
could be where he is now. (I think it qualifies as a spoiler since it
was in a book published this month.)

as for the Scott-influenced Apocalypse bit, that is only what
> people guessed is going on there...it was never said in the
> story...only that he seemed different this time around...if anything,

I have to agree. We do know that something was wrong with Scott, just
not what. It was apparent that the marriage was having serious
problems. Whatever motives Emma had, from Scott's perspective (at least
initially), she could help him figure things out.

Meanwhile, Jean was going through changes of her own. We know this
without question. It was this sort of self-involvement that kept her
from really noticing what was going on. She didn't know about Emma,
because she doesn't pry into Scott's mind, but she also seemed oblivious
to the fact that he was distant. Before it was ever outright stated
that the Phoenix Force was channeling through Jean, we saw it cleary we
she went against the U-Men. And - be honest - have you ever seen any
telekinetic use their powers as creatively as Jean did against the
U-Men? I don't think I have. IMO, Morrison wrote a Jean Grey I'd been
waiting to see for years without even knowing it.


> it implied that he was different because of the Decimation and what
> had happened to the mutants...

He should be. All of the remaining mutants should have been deeply
affected.

it bugged me that, despite the history
> with Cyclops, the two never even met in the story and Cyclops barely
> even appeared or mentioned what had happened last time...

Was he in a real position to do so?

it was a
> thoroughly mediocre storyline...as was the rest of Milligan's
> run...though it was an improvement on Chuck Austen.

I think some of Austen's *ideas* weren't so bad, but he execution left a
lot to be desired.

>> Wolverine hasn't really been trying to steal her away for decades.
>>It has been off and on (and there is inconsistency for you) as
>>writers and stories have changed.
>
> It's been on pretty much anytime the two of them appeared in the same
> book together.

I didn't think it really started until one of those stories in Classic
X-Men that "filled-in" events from the past. To be honest, I'm not even
sure why he wanted her. She hasn't been all that interesting (to me, at
least) since the first time she was Phoenix.

>> So he's not obsessed with her. So it isn't strange that he'd be
>>able to reject her if she didn't come to him on terms he accepted.
>
> Name another woman in his long history that he's devoted as much
> attention too...he nearly married Mariko and she still only appeared
> in a handful of stories and he wasn't nearly as affected by her death
> as Jean's even though he himself has made jokes about how she refuses
> to stay in her grave and will almost assuredly come back.

I think it's clear why Logan rejected her. Jean came to him because
Scott was not interested in her. IOW, this would have been nothing more
than a rebound affair. Jean would have likely had the fling and walked
away. Had she ever seriously been interested in Logan, there were
plenty of opportunities for her to be with him. Logan wanted a Jean who
wanted him for himself, not just as someone to be with when she couldn't
have Scott. That's just doomed from the start.

>> As for not liking the triangle itself, Morrison has done you a favor
>>by hopefully killing it at least for a while. (At least until Marvel
>>decides to bring back Jean, turn Emma evil, and split Scott and Emma.
>>Which will likely somewhere also have Logan chasing Jean again.)
>
> Morrison accomplished very little in this regard as the triangle has
> already come up two more times since her latest "death" (X-Men: The
> End and Phoenix Endsong)...and it keeps popping up in Ultimate X-Men
> as well.

That's just one flaw with Ultimate X-Men.

> I know she's likely to come back at some point but I still hope it
> doesn't...they should have let Jean stay dead the first time...let it
> go...I'm perfectly happy with her appearance in X-Men: First Class
> minus all the drama.

I also hope that she doesn't come back. Jean has been written so poorly
in the past - and often joined to the hip with Scott - that I'd rather
she stay dead. Ultimately, a person as powerful as she is can't work in
the stories. Like you, the Jean in First Class is great. Too bad she
wasn't written that way the first time around. I really enjoy that
book.

>>>> Jean had issues due to Scott, and because of the gradual return of
>>>>Phoenix Force powers.
>>>
>>> Yes...and she just stuck her head in the sand to avoid dealing with
>>> those issues until they finally came back to bite her...that's not
>>> Jean's personality...she doesn't avoid conflict...traditionally,
>>> she's been the first to call Scott out on his issues...I don't buy
>>> it.
>>
>> Why not? It isn't often that she's worrying about Scott like that,
>>and less often when she is worrying about Scott and Emma. She had a
>>lot of things on her mind and affecting the way she thought.
>
> Oh please...every X-Man always has a lot on their mind and this
> doesn't even approach all the drama from the early issues of X-Factor
> and she was in Scott's face about everything all through
> that...Morrison was just taking the typical "shock & awe" tact by
> leaving a permanent mark on the book...that's what writers at Marvel
> do these days...tear down anything that's lasted for any length of
> time to leave their mark...and I'm sick of it.

Not very many people are finding that they're beginning to channel a
cosmic entity that they felt was a) long gone and b) really not her at
all, just some thing that took her place at one time. Her changes were
physical and emotional. If I had to name it, I'd say she was on a high
and not coming down anytime soon.

>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to
>>> convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the
>>> point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>>:p
>
> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.

I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9990836F7D08FMcEwen@130.133.1.4:
> grinningdemon <grinningdemon DeleteThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
> news:4jocc3p46kioi6hd88qqgdhva39mp3ajcq@4ax.com:

>> I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
>> Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
>> X-Men...
>
> I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.

I don't know if it is true, but I recall reading once that Milligan
did not want to do an Apocalypse arc, but Marvel wanted one.

He certainly went out of his way to try to make it different from
a normal Apocalypse storyline.

> as for the Scott-influenced Apocalypse bit, that is only what
>> people guessed is going on there...it was never said in the
>> story...only that he seemed different this time around...if anything,
>
> I have to agree. We do know that something was wrong with Scott, just
> not what.

The merger with Apocalypse is mentioned by Morrison. It is what made
Scott colder, which causes the chinks in his relationship with Jean.
Given time, they probably would have worked things out, but Emma inserts
herself with the goal of breaking them apart.

The merger with Scott is not specifically mentioned by Milligan, but
Apocalypse being out-of-character is a recurring element. Apocalypse
himself even realizes it. Where Scott was colder, Apocalypse is
warmer and shows traits of Scott, such as being concerned about his
horsemen, not wanting kids hurt, and the like.

>> it implied that he was different because of the Decimation and what
>> had happened to the mutants...
>
> He should be. All of the remaining mutants should have been deeply
> affected.

Apocalypse was (supposedly) awakened by Decimation, and his basic
plan was driven by Decimation, but how he acted was from some other
influence. The most likely source was after-effects of his merger
with Scott (as we'd already seen Scott influenced from the same
event.)

>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to
>>>> convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the
>>>> point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>
>>> I disagree.
>>>
>>>:p
>>
>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>
> I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.

Indeed, I was joking.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:03:29 -0000, Billy Bissette
<baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:

>Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:Xns9990836F7D08FMcEwen@130.133.1.4:
>> grinningdemon <grinningdemon.RemoveThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>> news:4jocc3p46kioi6hd88qqgdhva39mp3ajcq@4ax.com:
>
>>> I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
>>> Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
>>> X-Men...
>>
>> I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
>
> I don't know if it is true, but I recall reading once that Milligan
>did not want to do an Apocalypse arc, but Marvel wanted one.
>
> He certainly went out of his way to try to make it different from
>a normal Apocalypse storyline.

I suppose I agree with you on this...it was different...but still not
particularly good.

>
>> as for the Scott-influenced Apocalypse bit, that is only what
>>> people guessed is going on there...it was never said in the
>>> story...only that he seemed different this time around...if anything,
>>
>> I have to agree. We do know that something was wrong with Scott, just
>> not what.
>
> The merger with Apocalypse is mentioned by Morrison. It is what made
>Scott colder, which causes the chinks in his relationship with Jean.
>Given time, they probably would have worked things out, but Emma inserts
>herself with the goal of breaking them apart.

The problem here is the inconsistency...Scott was reacting to the
Apocalypse merger in the opposite way prior to Morrison taking
over...and then he got all cold and repressed...but Scott has always
been repressed so I really don't see that scewing things up with
Jean...Scott Lobdell's idea was far more interesting and made more
sense since it caused more of a change in Scott.

>
> The merger with Scott is not specifically mentioned by Milligan, but
>Apocalypse being out-of-character is a recurring element. Apocalypse
>himself even realizes it. Where Scott was colder, Apocalypse is
>warmer and shows traits of Scott, such as being concerned about his
>horsemen, not wanting kids hurt, and the like.
>
>>> it implied that he was different because of the Decimation and what
>>> had happened to the mutants...
>>
>> He should be. All of the remaining mutants should have been deeply
>> affected.
>
> Apocalypse was (supposedly) awakened by Decimation, and his basic
>plan was driven by Decimation, but how he acted was from some other
>influence. The most likely source was after-effects of his merger
>with Scott (as we'd already seen Scott influenced from the same
>event.)

I disagree...given that it wasn't even brought up during the storyline
and that they kept pressing that he was different since Decimation, I
think it was as simple as him seeing the remaining mutants as more
precious than before...because there aren't many left...it could just
as easily been the result of the merger with Scott but the fact that
Milligan specifically avoided mentioning that makes me think
otherwise.

>
>>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going to
>>>>> convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see the
>>>>> point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree.
>>>>
>>>>:p
>>>
>>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>>
>> I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
>
> Indeed, I was joking.

Fair enough.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon.RemoveThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:k5qfc3drd4lk8c1golh8r667plppnr80cg@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:03:29 -0000, Billy Bissette
> <baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:
>>Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:Xns9990836F7D08FMcEwen@130.133.1.4:
>>> grinningdemon <grinningdemon.RemoveThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>>> news:4jocc3p46kioi6hd88qqgdhva39mp3ajcq@4ax.com:

>>>> I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
>>>> Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
>>>> X-Men...
>>>
>>> I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
>>
>> I don't know if it is true, but I recall reading once that Milligan
>>did not want to do an Apocalypse arc, but Marvel wanted one.
>>
>> He certainly went out of his way to try to make it different from
>>a normal Apocalypse storyline.
>
> I suppose I agree with you on this...it was different...but still not
> particularly good.

I agree that it wasn't particularly good. I also agree that I'd
rather have had no return of Apocalypse at all.

Where we might differ is that I saw a Scott-influenced Apocalypse as
the redeeming feature of the arc. Not enough to make it good, and
certainly not enough to justify a return of Apocalypse, but enough to
keep my interest rather than dropping the book flat (as I had intended.)

> The problem here is the inconsistency...Scott was reacting to the
> Apocalypse merger in the opposite way prior to Morrison taking
> over...and then he got all cold and repressed...but Scott has always
> been repressed so I really don't see that scewing things up with
> Jean...Scott Lobdell's idea was far more interesting and made more
> sense since it caused more of a change in Scott.

I will agree with that inconsistency. Unfortunately, such things
tend to be a problem when writers change. And more of a problem when
the new writer has already been working out a story idea.

With better preperation on Marvel's side, we should have at least
seen Cyclops become more distance in the issues leading up to
Morrison's run. That would have made the change with Morrison less
dramatic, and also may have helped clue fans in that it was important
and not just that the new writer didn't know the character.


Honestly, I'd say Morrison still wasn't as bad as some. At the very
least, he had a reason. Compare that to Carey's Mystique, who joined
the X-Men under Milligan for the expressed purpose of hooking up
Rogue with Pulse (or whatever his name was) rather than Gambit. When
Carey takes over, Pulse is never seen or mentioned again, and Mystique
is given a new reason for having joined the X-Men. And Rogue, who had
at least become friendly with the guy, never mentions him, though she
does give an excuse for not pining over Gambit.

Or Claremont. Claremont has certainly done a few personality
alterations for no story reason, and often enough just to take them
back to how they were when he had last written them.

I could think of other names. You probably can yourself. It
doesn't excuse bad writing or poor preperation for Morrison's run,
but in a way it shows inconsistency is not an unexpected occurance.
Nor does it necessarily cripple the quality of a run. (I say that
here mainly because I believe Morrison receives more heat than is
justified in comparison to other writers and their stories.)

>> Apocalypse was (supposedly) awakened by Decimation, and his basic
>>plan was driven by Decimation, but how he acted was from some other
>>influence. The most likely source was after-effects of his merger
>>with Scott (as we'd already seen Scott influenced from the same
>>event.)
>
> I disagree...given that it wasn't even brought up during the storyline
> and that they kept pressing that he was different since Decimation, I
> think it was as simple as him seeing the remaining mutants as more
> precious than before...because there aren't many left...it could just
> as easily been the result of the merger with Scott but the fact that
> Milligan specifically avoided mentioning that makes me think
> otherwise.

From what I recall, Milligan's Apocalypse is not just concerned
about mutants. When discussing the expected progression of the plague
with Pestilence, he pauses at the thought of children and the elderly
being affected the most. He's concerned about the humans that he
himself planned to kill.

>>>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going
>>>>>> to convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see
>>>>>> the point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>>:p
>>>>
>>>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>>>
>>> I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
>>
>> Indeed, I was joking.
>
> Fair enough.

Funny thing is, we actually seem to be agreeing on a few things
now.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:27:16 -0000, Billy Bissette
<baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:k5qfc3drd4lk8c1golh8r667plppnr80cg@4ax.com:
>> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:03:29 -0000, Billy Bissette
>> <baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:
>>>Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:Xns9990836F7D08FMcEwen@130.133.1.4:
>>>> grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>>>> news:4jocc3p46kioi6hd88qqgdhva39mp3ajcq@4ax.com:
>
>>>>> I'd rather have no return of Apocalypse storyline...second only to
>>>>> Magneto, he's the most overused villain in the history of the
>>>>> X-Men...
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
>>>
>>> I don't know if it is true, but I recall reading once that Milligan
>>>did not want to do an Apocalypse arc, but Marvel wanted one.
>>>
>>> He certainly went out of his way to try to make it different from
>>>a normal Apocalypse storyline.
>>
>> I suppose I agree with you on this...it was different...but still not
>> particularly good.
>
> I agree that it wasn't particularly good. I also agree that I'd
>rather have had no return of Apocalypse at all.
>
> Where we might differ is that I saw a Scott-influenced Apocalypse as
>the redeeming feature of the arc. Not enough to make it good, and
>certainly not enough to justify a return of Apocalypse, but enough to
>keep my interest rather than dropping the book flat (as I had intended.)

Yes but that was all guess work on your part...it's not ever actually
said in the story or even directly hinted.

>
>> The problem here is the inconsistency...Scott was reacting to the
>> Apocalypse merger in the opposite way prior to Morrison taking
>> over...and then he got all cold and repressed...but Scott has always
>> been repressed so I really don't see that scewing things up with
>> Jean...Scott Lobdell's idea was far more interesting and made more
>> sense since it caused more of a change in Scott.
>
> I will agree with that inconsistency. Unfortunately, such things
>tend to be a problem when writers change. And more of a problem when
>the new writer has already been working out a story idea.
>
> With better preperation on Marvel's side, we should have at least
>seen Cyclops become more distance in the issues leading up to
>Morrison's run. That would have made the change with Morrison less
>dramatic, and also may have helped clue fans in that it was important
>and not just that the new writer didn't know the character.

Why should they have done that when Scott Lobdell's (the writer just
prior to Morrison) idea for Cyclops was better...and made more
sense...it showed the Apocalypse merger having a far greater and more
interestesting effect on Cyclops...Morrison just made him act
repressed like he always had...the mischaracterization came mainly
from his interaction (or lack there of) with Jean...it just didn't
make sense to me...and was a pretty lame way to break them up.

>
>
> Honestly, I'd say Morrison still wasn't as bad as some. At the very
>least, he had a reason. Compare that to Carey's Mystique, who joined
>the X-Men under Milligan for the expressed purpose of hooking up
>Rogue with Pulse (or whatever his name was) rather than Gambit. When
>Carey takes over, Pulse is never seen or mentioned again, and Mystique
>is given a new reason for having joined the X-Men. And Rogue, who had
>at least become friendly with the guy, never mentions him, though she
>does give an excuse for not pining over Gambit.
>
> Or Claremont. Claremont has certainly done a few personality
>alterations for no story reason, and often enough just to take them
>back to how they were when he had last written them.
>
> I could think of other names. You probably can yourself. It
>doesn't excuse bad writing or poor preperation for Morrison's run,
>but in a way it shows inconsistency is not an unexpected occurance.
>Nor does it necessarily cripple the quality of a run. (I say that
>here mainly because I believe Morrison receives more heat than is
>justified in comparison to other writers and their stories.)

I'm not saying other writers haven't been guilty of
mischaracterization...but I can't think of one as completely off the
mark as Morrison...and, as I've said, the high profile nature of his
run actually makes it worse as it makes other writers try to emulate
him...as Milligan did...this will likely be impacting the X-Men for
years...and Warren Ellis taking over Astonishing has me worried
because he has a similar writing style ot Morrison and will may well
pick up where he left off or else do something worse.

>
>>> Apocalypse was (supposedly) awakened by Decimation, and his basic
>>>plan was driven by Decimation, but how he acted was from some other
>>>influence. The most likely source was after-effects of his merger
>>>with Scott (as we'd already seen Scott influenced from the same
>>>event.)
>>
>> I disagree...given that it wasn't even brought up during the storyline
>> and that they kept pressing that he was different since Decimation, I
>> think it was as simple as him seeing the remaining mutants as more
>> precious than before...because there aren't many left...it could just
>> as easily been the result of the merger with Scott but the fact that
>> Milligan specifically avoided mentioning that makes me think
>> otherwise.
>
> From what I recall, Milligan's Apocalypse is not just concerned
>about mutants. When discussing the expected progression of the plague
>with Pestilence, he pauses at the thought of children and the elderly
>being affected the most. He's concerned about the humans that he
>himself planned to kill.

Yes, but the impression I got from the ending of the arc was that, at
least some of that, was an act to gain trust from remaining
mutants...that's certainly how it seemed to me.

>
>>>>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going
>>>>>>> to convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see
>>>>>>> the point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>:p
>>>>>
>>>>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>>>>
>>>> I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
>>>
>>> Indeed, I was joking.
>>
>> Fair enough.
>
> Funny thing is, we actually seem to be agreeing on a few things
>now.
>

On some things, yes...but not on the central premise that started our
exchange...I still think Morrison horribly mischaracterized the X-Men
and you don't.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon.TakeThisOut@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:8k6fc39ogbkf000rahvjm43gehunulorlp@4ax.com:

> On 18 Aug 2007 16:57:59 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
>>About the only effect it's really had was to give Chamber powers so he
>>could be where he is now. (I think it qualifies as a spoiler since it
>>was in a book published this month.)
>
> Actually, the Chamber thing happened in New Excalibur a few months
> back so it really had nothing to do with Milligan's story.

He still has the Apocalypse Face. He got that during Milligan's run. I
had no idea he'd been used since then.

> Grant Morrison is probably the most creative writer in comics...he
> comes up with things that just blow my mind...but he has a hard time
> getting a handle on characters that he didn't invent, or at least
> re-invent, himself...he is not good with characterization at all...and
> he actually seems to realize this because, on his JLA run for
> instance, he was very careful to make everything very story-driven
> with little character development (he also seems to be taking a
> similar track with now with Batman)...

Here's the thing. I hated Kyle Rayner until Morrison wrote him. He
must have done something with the characterization to make me change my
opinion of him.

I'm not sure what he was
> thinking with X-Men but it just didn't work for me at all. I think
> his run is hit or miss with X-Men fans...some really love it...some
> really hate it...and there doesn't seem to be much in between.

That's pretty clear. You don't see many people say "it was okay".

>>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going
>>>>> to convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see
>>>>> the point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree.
>>>>
>>>>:p
>>>
>>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>>
>>I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
>
> Hmm...how can you tell?

I can't tell if you're joking. I think saying "I disagree" was meant to
signal that it was the end.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On 19 Aug 2007 16:37:48 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon.DeleteThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:8k6fc39ogbkf000rahvjm43gehunulorlp@4ax.com:
>
>> On 18 Aug 2007 16:57:59 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>I agree. Whatever Milligan intended, the story was very lackluster.
>>>About the only effect it's really had was to give Chamber powers so he
>>>could be where he is now. (I think it qualifies as a spoiler since it
>>>was in a book published this month.)
>>
>> Actually, the Chamber thing happened in New Excalibur a few months
>> back so it really had nothing to do with Milligan's story.
>
>He still has the Apocalypse Face. He got that during Milligan's run. I
>had no idea he'd been used since then.

Actually, I don't remember Chamber even appearing in Milligan's
run...following Decimation, he lost his powers and was left on life
support with a big hole in his chest and no lower jaw...it was in the
New Excalibur storyline where he was revealed to be a descendant of
Apocalypse and taken and restored by other descendants of
Apocalypse...now he looks like Apocalypse Jr. and his new powers are
still unexplored...all that happened in Excalibur.

>
>> Grant Morrison is probably the most creative writer in comics...he
>> comes up with things that just blow my mind...but he has a hard time
>> getting a handle on characters that he didn't invent, or at least
>> re-invent, himself...he is not good with characterization at all...and
>> he actually seems to realize this because, on his JLA run for
>> instance, he was very careful to make everything very story-driven
>> with little character development (he also seems to be taking a
>> similar track with now with Batman)...
>
>Here's the thing. I hated Kyle Rayner until Morrison wrote him. He
>must have done something with the characterization to make me change my
>opinion of him.

All right...Rayner I'll grant you...Morrison did some great things
with him but, if you'll recall, he was still a fairly new character at
that point...not much had been done with him yet...and you have to
admit that Morrison largely took a "hands-off" approach with the rest
of the JLA...I even remember reading in interviews that the main
difference between Morrison's run and Waid's run that followed it was
that Waid's was just as good but added character development.

>
>I'm not sure what he was
>> thinking with X-Men but it just didn't work for me at all. I think
>> his run is hit or miss with X-Men fans...some really love it...some
>> really hate it...and there doesn't seem to be much in between.
>
>That's pretty clear. You don't see many people say "it was okay".

Agreed.

>
>>>>>> The truth is we could argue back and forth on the merits of
>>>>>> Morrison's run (or lack there of) endlessly but you're not going
>>>>>> to convince me and I'm not likely to convince you so I don't see
>>>>>> the point. We might as well just agree to disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>>:p
>>>>
>>>> Fine...let's just argue in circles until we both get sick of it.
>>>
>>>I think he was agreeing to disagree. I think.
>>
>> Hmm...how can you tell?
>
>I can't tell if you're joking. I think saying "I disagree" was meant to
>signal that it was the end.

I can't tell if I was joking either...at any rate, it clearly didn't
end anything as we're still going...oh well.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon DeleteThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:nlahc39qvbm0500fqhdks1adsqjtskug72@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:27:16 -0000, Billy Bissette
> <baines DeleteThis @coastalnet.com> wrote:

> Why should they have done that when Scott Lobdell's (the writer just
> prior to Morrison) idea for Cyclops was better...and made more
> sense...it showed the Apocalypse merger having a far greater and more
> interestesting effect on Cyclops...Morrison just made him act
> repressed like he always had...the mischaracterization came mainly
> from his interaction (or lack there of) with Jean...it just didn't
> make sense to me...and was a pretty lame way to break them up.

I just have to ask since I wasn't reading before Morrison: what was
Lobdell's idea? I never thought he was a great writer, which was
especially true when the x-editors were so heavily involved that
creativity was zero. Did he having something interesting in mind, or
just mediocre but better?

> I'm not saying o