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user272

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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:22 am
Post subject: Esperanto and Basic English
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Being an esperantist myself, I wonder if there are any clear data about
G.O.'s knowledge and interest on Esperanto and Basic English. I know about
his family relation with Eugene Adam (Lanti) through his aunt, and he wrote
a few words on the subject in Down and Out and in a letter of (or about) the
same period, but did he actually get to learn a bit of the language?
Something has been written about the influence of Esperanto on Newspeak,
which seems plausible at least in some aspects of word formation, but are
there any solid grounds for that claim? He also mentions Basic English in
one or two places, but I can't quite make out his position for or against
it.

Regards,

A.P.



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mabjo

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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:22 am
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Alejandro Pareja wrote:

 > Being an esperantist myself, I wonder if there are any clear data about
 > G.O.'s knowledge and interest on Esperanto and Basic English. I know about
 > his family relation with Eugene Adam (Lanti) through his aunt, and he wrote
 > a few words on the subject in Down and Out and in a letter of (or about) the
 > same period, but did he actually get to learn a bit of the language?
 > Something has been written about the influence of Esperanto on Newspeak,
 > which seems plausible at least in some aspects of word formation, but are
 > there any solid grounds for that claim? He also mentions Basic English in
 > one or two places, but I can't quite make out his position for or against
 > it.
 >
 > Regards,
 >
 > A.P.
 >
 > --
 > Para enviarme un e-mail, añadir la "d" que falta
 > To e-mail me, fill in the missing "d"

Alejandro --

Great questions, and hard ones to answer without a lot of research.

Isn't there an essay or column someplace that expresses pretty strong optimism
about Basic English? I remember thinking it was funny stuff coming from a man
who would later write so effectively about the notion that simplifying language
could constrict thought.

I'll try and do the research soon.

Meanwhile, can you tell us more about how Eugene Adam is regarded among
Esperantists? Do you see specific Esperanto influences in Newspeak?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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user272

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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:51 am
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 > Alejandro --
 >
 > Great questions, and hard ones to answer without a lot of research.
 >
 > Isn't there an essay or column someplace that expresses pretty strong
optimism
 > about Basic English? I remember thinking it was funny stuff coming from a
man
 > who would later write so effectively about the notion that simplifying
language
 > could constrict thought.

My feeling precisely. I'll look it up, as I was quoting from memory and in
fact I'm not sure whether the lines about his short stay in Paris with his
aunt (whom he calls simply "his landlady") are from Down and Out or from
somewhere else.

 >
 > I'll try and do the research soon.
 >
 > Meanwhile, can you tell us more about how Eugene Adam is regarded among
 > Esperantists? Do you see specific Esperanto influences in Newspeak?

On Eugene Adam, called Lanti (L'anti, as he was "anti everything" in his
early anarchist days) I think I'll refer you to David Poulson's fine
articles on Esperanto

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984" target="_blank">http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984</a> and the next two or three
deal on Lanti. Note the following paragraph by him (traslated from
Esperanto):

"Socialism is a social order ("sociordo") in which there would be no
exploitation of one group of individuals by another; in which every worker
would receive the full value of his labour, that is no surplus would be
reserved for the use of a class or category of privileged individuals; a
social order in which everyone would be able to freely develop his or her
potential and would have the right to express openly and without
embarrassment their opinions and the ability to publish them; a just and
fair social order with no classes in which each individual could attain
awareness of their own dignity. In a word, Socialism would be the attainment
of the slogan which hypocritically adorns state buildings and monuments in
France: Liberty, Equality and Fraternity."

I think G.O. wouldn't have found much fault with that. Lanti had been an
anarchist before he became a socialist, and I think it shows. Perhaps they
had some talks, if Lanti could be persuaded to switch to French when he was
at home, that is, or if Orwell had picked up some Esperanto... He had a
facility for
languages, didn't he?

Well, as to opinions about Adam-Lanti, Esperantists are a mixed lot
polliticaly, though you don't find many fascists among us, but quite a few
seem to think that the difussion of the language is THE political solution
for the world's troubles. The Sennacieco Asocio Tutmonda founded by Lanti is
still around and claims to be the "the second largest of the world Esperanto
organisations" (after the UEA, that would be). I think they've dropped
marxism by now.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://satesperanto.free.fr/" target="_blank">http://satesperanto.free.fr/</a> , they have a short introduction in English.
See "what is SAT", but also "Anglalingva" near the bottom of the column.

On the influence of Esperanto on Newspeak, yes, seems very likely indeed,
some aspects do seem to derive from the Esperanto word formation and other
characteristics. Even if Orwell had picked only the least smattering of
Esperanto, he would probably know about the prefix "mal-", which works very
much like the Newspeak "un-". So, in E-o,

bona: good
malbona : bad, or "ungood".

Let me see, Newspeak had an "almost complete interchangeability between
different parts of speech". There's a quite bit of that in Esperanto too,
but when you turn a noun, say, or an adverb into a noun you mark it as such.
So, to turn the word jes (yes) into a verb, you'd add the verbal ending and
say "jesi". The original idea of much interchangeability could indeed have
been taken from Esperanto.

"There was, for example, no such word as cut, its meaning being sufficiently
covered by the noun-verb knife"

It's not as radical as that, but the E-o word for knife is indeed trancilo,
from tranci (to cut) and the affixes -il- (denoting tool) and -o (denoting
noun). So a knife is a cut-tool-noun.

"Adjectives were formed by adding the suffix -ful to the noun-verb, and
adverbs by adding -wise. Thus for example, speedful meant 'rapid' and
speedwise meant 'quickly'"

Yes, that's Esperanto all over.

rapida : quick
rapide : quickly
rapidi : to hurry
(and malrapida : slow, etc)

"The second distinguishing mark of Newspeak grammar was its regularity".
Well, E-o all over again, of course, even if I'm not proud of the
connection.

"The only classes of words that were still allowed to inflect irregularly
were the pronouns, the relatives, the demonstrative adjectives, and the
auxiliary verbs". I wonder why Orwell kept that. Newspeak does seem a bit
messy compared to Esperanto.

As to the importance given to ease of pronunciation, that's NOT in E-o, some
compound words do come out rather awkwardly.

The section on the B vocabulary is also quite reminiscent of the way
compound words can be created in E-o. But the aim of Esperanto is a greater
freedom of thought and speech (not to mention world peace) and to enlarge
the vocabulary, rather than to diminish it, and of course no words are
banned for ideological reasons. I think there's not even a trend towards
silly P.C. talk in Esperanto. Perhaps because we tend to think, as
Adam-Lanti did, that talking E-o is of itself the ultimate act of political
correctness...

Regards,

Alejandro Pareja



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 >
 > /M
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all1

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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:55 am
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Martha Bridegam writes
 >Isn't there an essay or column someplace that expresses pretty strong optimism
 >about Basic English? I remember thinking it was funny stuff coming from a man
 >who would later write so effectively about the notion that simplifying language
 >could constrict thought.

CEJL has 3 mentions of Basic, all in Vol. 3. -- i.e. written in 1943/44,
which may be significant, recalling what was going through GO's mind at
the time.

* a passing mention in *The English People*, where Basic is described,
in the context of a discussion of the range and flexibility of English,
a one of various "very simple pidgin dialects"

* a reference (*As I Please* 28 Jan 1944) within a discussion of
international languages, whose rivalry is made the occasion for some
comic and disrespectful comparisons. Nonetheless, Orwell talks about the
"need for an international language" and suggests it will not be a
manufactured one, offering English as the most likely natural candidate
"though not necessarily in the Basic form"

* a favourable reference in *As I Please* (18 Aug 1944) to Basic's
ability to act as "a sort of corrective to the oratory of statesmen and
publicists", because Basic can deflate "high-sounding phrases", of which
GO gives an example, rather in the manner of *PATEL*. He goes on: "In
Basic, I am told, you cannot make a meaningless statement without its
being apparent that it is meaningless -- which is quite enough to
explain why so many schoolmasters, editors, politicians and literary
critics object to it."

Tom
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bridegam

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:32 pm
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Alejandro Pareja wrote:

 > ....
 >
 > On Eugene Adam, called Lanti (L'anti, as he was "anti everything" in his
 > early anarchist days) I think I'll refer you to David Poulson's fine
 > articles on Esperanto
 >
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984" target="_blank">http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984</a> and the next two or three
 > deal on Lanti. Note the following paragraph by him (traslated from
 > Esperanto):
 >
 > "Socialism is a social order ("sociordo") in which there would be no
 > exploitation of one group of individuals by another; in which every worker
 > would receive the full value of his labour, that is no surplus would be
 > reserved for the use of a class or category of privileged individuals; a
 > social order in which everyone would be able to freely develop his or her
 > potential and would have the right to express openly and without
 > embarrassment their opinions and the ability to publish them; a just and
 > fair social order with no classes in which each individual could attain
 > awareness of their own dignity. In a word, Socialism would be the attainment
 > of the slogan which hypocritically adorns state buildings and monuments in
 > France: Liberty, Equality and Fraternity."
 >
 > I think G.O. wouldn't have found much fault with that. ...

Or with this:

"The new Diogenes was not unlike the old. It was not just his beard but his
stern irony, his rough sincerity, and his absolute rejection of all forms of
polite hypocrisy that qualified him as a member of the school of Cynics. And
one could easily imagine him, dressed as an old philosopher, walking the
streets of the city in broad daylight with a lantern in his hand, searching
like Diogenes for one honest man."

Thanks very much for the Esperanto discussion.

And, Tom, thanks for doing the CEJL digging. There are several more Basic
English mentions in the CW index. If nobody else gets to them first I'll go
through them tonight.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user272

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:45 pm
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I forgot to mention that Francis and Myfanwy Westrope, the owners of the
Hampstead bookshop where Orwell worked, were also esperantists and actually
members of Lanti's SAT. Sounds significant.

Regards

A.P.

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bridegam

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:45 pm
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Alejandro Pareja wrote:

 > I forgot to mention that Francis and Myfanwy Westrope, the owners of the
 > Hampstead bookshop where Orwell worked, were also esperantists and actually
 > members of Lanti's SAT. Sounds significant.
 >
 > Regards
 >
 > A.P.
 >
 > Para enviarme un e-mail, añadir la "d" que falta
 > To e-mail me, fill in the missing "d"

Sure does. Thx. Never knew that. /M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:51 pm
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I see the server didn't take the c^. The E-o word for knife is tranc^ilo
(trancxilo, tranchilo).

Regards.

A.P.

--
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"
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user271

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:04 am
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"Martha Bridegam" <bridegam.TakeThisOut@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3F69DE10.73887272@pacbell.net...
 >
 >
 > Alejandro Pareja wrote:
 >
  > > ....
  > >
  > > On Eugene Adam, called Lanti (L'anti, as he was "anti everything" in his
  > > early anarchist days) I think I'll refer you to David Poulson's fine
  > > articles on Esperanto
  > >
  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984" target="_blank">http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1146/12984</a> and the next two or
three
  > > deal on Lanti. Note the following paragraph by him (traslated from
  > > Esperanto):
  > >
  > > "Socialism is a social order ("sociordo") in which there would be no
  > > exploitation of one group of individuals by another; in which every
worker
  > > would receive the full value of his labour, that is no surplus would be
  > > reserved for the use of a class or category of privileged individuals; a
  > > social order in which everyone would be able to freely develop his or
her
  > > potential and would have the right to express openly and without
  > > embarrassment their opinions and the ability to publish them; a just and
  > > fair social order with no classes in which each individual could attain
  > > awareness of their own dignity. In a word, Socialism would be the
attainment
  > > of the slogan which hypocritically adorns state buildings and monuments
in
  > > France: Liberty, Equality and Fraternity."
  > >
  > > I think G.O. wouldn't have found much fault with that. ...
 >
 > Or with this:
 >
 > "The new Diogenes was not unlike the old. It was not just his beard but
his
 > stern irony, his rough sincerity, and his absolute rejection of all forms
of
 > polite hypocrisy that qualified him as a member of the school of Cynics.
And
 > one could easily imagine him, dressed as an old philosopher, walking the
 > streets of the city in broad daylight with a lantern in his hand,
searching
 > like Diogenes for one honest man."
 >
 > Thanks very much for the Esperanto discussion.
 >
 > And, Tom, thanks for doing the CEJL digging. There are several more Basic
 > English mentions in the CW index. If nobody else gets to them first I'll
go
 > through them tonight.
 >
 > /M
 >
 >

Just don't confuse Basic English with Newspeak please.
The first is how to make the language more accessible and understood by all
and the second is to reduce its power and therebye consolidate thought
control.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:23 am
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

 > ....There are several more Basic
 > English mentions in the CW index. If nobody else gets to them first I'll go
 > through them tonight.
 >
 > /M

In addition to what Tom has already posted, following is Basic English discussion
from the Orwell Complete Works.

Material is quoted only & not necessarily shewn forth as infallible. Readers are
implored to insert "sic" where necessary.



- In the BBC correspondence, 18 August 1942, letter to Leonora Lockhart:

"Dear Miss Lockhart,
I am approaching you in the hope that you will do a talk on Basic English in the
Indian Service of the BBC, on October 2nd. This series of talks, in which I want
you to take part, is called 'I'd Like it Explained,' and the talks usually take
the form of a dialogue between two experts, who are questioned by an Indian
interviewer. In the case of Basic English, I think it would be better not to have
a discussion, but simply an interview in which the method is explained from the
ground upwards, because it is here a case of putting on the map something which
many of our listeners will not have heard of, and others will have heard a
distorted version of. In trying to put over the idea of Basic English to India,
we are liable to encounter a certain amount of opposition from Indians who
already speak standard English, but what I am chiefly concerned with is to
popularise the idea that Basic English will be particularly useful as between
Indians, Chinese and other Orientals who don't know one another's languages, and
that we have as an initial advantage the fact that between five and ten million
Indians know a certain amount of standard English. We would therefore frame the
interview along these lines. I hope you will undertake this, as I am particularly
anxious to have this subject put on the map, with a view to dealing with it more
elaborately later.

Yours truly,
George Orwell
Talks Producer
Indian Section"


Per further correspondence and footnotes in the CW, Orwell got a note from C.K.
Ogden, principal developer and proponent of Basic English, and corresponded with
him about the difficulty of promoting Basic English. Orwell expressed his own
hope for "a series of talks giving lessons in Basic English which could perhaps
afterwards be printed in India in pamphlet form." He continued, "I still have not
given up this project but I must tell you that it has come up against a great
deal of discouragement and opposition, some of which I understand and some not."

Later, in 1944, he writes again thanking Ogden for a "booklet" and says, "I was
aware, of course, that you have much to put up with from the Esperanto people,
and that was why you drew attention to their very unfortunate choice for the verb
'to be' or whatever it is. We have had them on to us since mentioning Basic, but
I have choked them off. Also the Ido people." (A footnote explains "Ido" as "An
artificial language based on Esperanto, officially Linguo Internaciona di la
Delegitaro (Sistema Ido), made public in 1907.") He complains again, that at the
BBC "there was great resistance against doing anything over the air about Basic,
at any rate for India. I rather gathered that its chief enemies were the writers
of English textbooks, but that all Indians whose English is good are hostile to
the idea for obvious reasons. At any rate it was with great difficulty that I got
Miss Lockhart on to the air."

--------------------------------------------

In December 1943 there is a mainly favorable review of the book *Interglossa* by
Lancelot Hogben, as part of a review column for the Manchester Evening News. He
discusses the advantages of easily learned universal languages and then says in
part:

"...Anyone with a good memory could probably master this in a few weeks, and
anyone who has learned Latin and Greek could guess his way through many
Interglossa sentences at sight.

Now, having set forth some of the advantages of Interglossa, why is it that I
don't believe in a future for this language, as I don't of course.

To begin with, it is difficult to believe in any artificial language, even if one
could be agreed upon, making headway against tongues already spoken by hundreds
of millions of people.

Professor Hogben's chief foe, of course, is Basic. Basic may be slightly harder
to learn than Interglossa, but the only real argument against it is the
suspicion, which is bound to arise in many people's minds, that it is an
instrument of Anglo-American imperialism.

To offset this there is the enormous advantage of being put in touch, straight
off, with two or three hundred million people. Moreover, anyone who chooses to
proceed from Basic to standard English has access to a world-wide press and the
literature of hundreds of years.

So also with several of the great natural languages. An artificial language has
none of these advantages..."

He goes on to complain, "...I doubt very much whether Professor Hogben is the
right person to make up languages, except perhaps for strictly technical
purposes..." because, he says, Hogben's English is full of bad & in fact
preposterous phrases. Here he includes the "ducks and drakes with a native
battery of idiom" later cited in P&TEL.

"...International languages are not, of course, devised for literary purposes,
but if they are to be used as a weapon against the nationalism which Professor
Hogben rightly fears they cannot be a merely technical and scientific jargon
either. They must be capable of expressing fairly subtle meanings with the
maximum of clarity, but in that case they must be devised by someone who really
cares about clarity...

....An 8,000-word English-Interglossa dictionary will follow this preliminary
volume...."

A letter-writer then suggested Orwell was wrong to name Basic as Interglossa's
chief competitor, saying instead that the main competitor was really Esperanto.

Later still, in the January 1944 "As I Please" column that Tom mentions, Orwell
introduces the subject by saying he now realizes how "comparatively chivalrous"
Hogben has been in describing other artificial languages, compared with the
"feuds" elsewhere among proponents of such languages.

--------------------------------------------

An October 11, 1945 column for the Manchester Evening News reviews several books
including a typically sharp review of a book by a friend. This is a book of short
stories by his friend Inez Holden. He concludes the review by mentioning: "At the
end (these are linguistic curiosities, but one of them is quite a good story in
itself) are three very short stories written in basic English."


(Hmmm. Does anyone remember if Inez Holden had any association with the
Westropes?)

--------------------------------------------

There's an April 4, 1947 "As I Please" in addition to the ones Tom mentioned that
was probably left out of CEJL at least in part because of poor taste in quoting
for comic effect from Solomon and New Hebrides Islands pidgin. He goes on to say:
"...There are similar pidgins, most of them not quite so bad, in other parts of
the world. In some cases the people who first formed them were probably
influenced by the feeling that a subject race ought to talk comically. But there
are areas where a lingua franca of some kind is indispensable, and the
perversions actually in use make one see what a lot there is to be said for
Basic."

--------------------------------------------


Thanks for asking the question, Alejandro. It is really strange to pile all of
this up and realize just how deeply Orwell and several of his friends and
relatives did care *in favor of* artificial languages. Which makes it hard to
understand how he then flipped from Basic into Newspeak.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:53 pm
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"Martha Bridegam" <mabjo.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3F6AAEF3.49A080C4@pacbell.net...
<...>
 >
 > Thanks for asking the question, Alejandro. It is really strange to pile
all of
 > this up and realize just how deeply Orwell and several of his friends and
 > relatives did care *in favor of* artificial languages. Which makes it hard
to
 > understand how he then flipped from Basic into Newspeak.
 >
 > /M
 >

Thanks for your research! It's certainly most clarifying. I could make
plenty of comments on Orwell's ideas, of course; but what I found most
remarkable was his view that Interglossa is an easy language... if only you
know Latin and Greek.

BTW, Ido is indeed a "dialect" of Esperanto used by a breakaway group of
esperantists... "ido", as a suffix or as a word of itself, means
"offspring", also in the linguistic sense (as in "romanidaj lingvoj" ,
Romanic languages).

As to Basic English, it's looked upon by many esperantists and others as a
Trojan horse for regular English and "Anglo-American imperialism", though I
think we may take out the "Anglo" by now. I can hardly imagine someone
learning Basic English and sticking forever after to the 850-word
vocabulary, not making the jump to regular English.

Thanks again and regards.

Alejandro



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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:02 pm
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"Tom Deveson" <all DeleteThis @devesons.demon.co.uk> escribió en el mensaje
news:zWs1w+A2TWa$EwSS@devesons.demon.co.uk...
 > Martha Bridegam writes
  > >Isn't there an essay or column someplace that expresses pretty strong
optimism
  > >about Basic English? I remember thinking it was funny stuff coming from a
man
  > >who would later write so effectively about the notion that simplifying
language
  > >could constrict thought.

<...>

 > Tom
 > --
 > Tom Deveson
Thanks for your help, Tom!

Regards,

Alejandro

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 >> Stay informed about: Esperanto and Basic English 
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pricerbumanto

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Since: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 3



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Esperanto and Basic English [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Martha Bridegam <mabjo DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3F6AAEF3.49A080C4 DeleteThis @pacbell.net>...
(snip)

 > Later, in 1944, he writes again thanking Ogden for a "booklet" and says, "I was
 > aware, of course, that you have much to put up with from the Esperanto people,
 > and that was why you drew attention to their very unfortunate choice for the verb
 > 'to be' or whatever it is.

I just got around to reading this interesting post (and thank you for
researching this so thoroughly!) and was amused by the above. I
suspect that what Ogden had brought up is the normal Esperanto
expression equivalent to English "How are you?", which is "Kiel vi
fartas?". The verb "farti" is cognate with English "fare", so a more
literal translation would be "How are you faring?". Of course
Zamenhof knew very little English (and as a mid-Victorian was unlikely
to have been taught the vulgarism in question, anyway!), and it's not
a problem for speakers of most other languages. It is in fact very
difficult to avoid this kind of problem; almost every pair of
languages will have espressions which sound anywhere from comic to
obscene to the speakers of another language (Say "Don't touch my
moustache" to a Jpanese speaker and he or she will probably reply with
the Japense equivalent of "You're welcome!", because of what the
English phrase sounds like to Japanese ear). Interstingly there is
another such "collision" between Esperanto and French: the most common
way of saying "Please" in Espernati is "mi petas", which sounds
(again!) like you're talking about farting, to the French.

 > We have had them on to us since mentioning Basic, but
 > I have choked them off. Also the Ido people." (A footnote explains "Ido" as "An
 > artificial language based on Esperanto, officially Linguo Internaciona di la
 > Delegitaro (Sistema Ido), made public in 1907.")

Esperanto-enthusiasts can be pretty bad (I think this is mostly
because small, sometimes persecuted or laughed-at, groups tend to
attract an inordinate number of people of a certain personality type,
or set of types who, among other things, thrive on persecution. The
more the general public questions their views, or tries to ignore
them, the more they're convinced they're right. See Eric Hoffer's The
True Believer... and the old chestnut about the definition of a
fanatic), but possibly Ido-ists are even worse. There's a famous
story about Bertrand Russell and Couturat (at lesat I think it was the
latter; you can look it up) in this connection. Apparently Couturat
was lamenting the fact that there was no common word for a supporter
of Ido in English, like "Esperantist" for the Esperanto proponets, and
was not amused when Lord russell suggested "idiot".

 > He complains again, that at the
 > BBC "there was great resistance against doing anything over the air about Basic,
 > at any rate for India. I rather gathered that its chief enemies were the writers
 > of English textbooks, but that all Indians whose English is good are hostile to
 > the idea for obvious reasons. At any rate it was with great difficulty that I got
 > Miss Lockhart on to the air."
 >
 > --------------------------------------------
 >
 > In December 1943 there is a mainly favorable review of the book *Interglossa* by
 > Lancelot Hogben, as part of a review column for the Manchester Evening News. He
 > discusses the advantages of easily learned universal languages and then says in
 > part:
 >
 > "...Anyone with a good memory could probably master this in a few weeks, and
 > anyone who has learned Latin and Greek could guess his way through many
 > Interglossa sentences at sight.
(snip)

Just a few years ago a "new improved" version of Interglossa appeared,
called simply "Glosa". IIRC one of the proponents was Wendy Ashby.
It had a web presence, but I haven't checked lately to see if it's
still there, nor have I heard much about it. I remember at least one
denizen of the artland Usenet group who was using it to correspond
with someone. I think it was Paul Bartlett. Maybe I'll ask him
what's up with it. It seemed like an interesting idea, since apart
from the lexicon, the syntax is closer to being "isolating" like
modern English and Mandarin, hence doesn't necessarioly raise the
objections some chinese (well, mainly in Usenet one particluar
Chinese! Wink ) have to Esperanto features like compulsory tense and
number and accusative case.

 > /M

George, who doesn't find it hard to see how Orwell got from being
interested in planlangs and artlangs to Newspeak*


* If you read P&TEL (and another one of the essays from about that
time, whose name I disremember now, you can see his concer with how
the corruption, banalization, sloganizing etc of language corrupts and
trivializes political thought and discourse. Once he came up with the
idea of IngSoc, it would be natural to take the Stalinist and
Hitlerite developments to their apparent logical conclusion, and once
he had the society, he needed a language for it. Where else would he
look for the features of that language than in the artlangs with which
he was familiar?

BTW FWIW, having read quite a bit of Soviet and Chinese propaganda in
Esperanto, I can report that it is apparently just as easy to commit
the sins GO talks about in P&TEL in Epsernato as it is in English...
Sad<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 628



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Esperanto and Basic English [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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George Partlow wrote:

 > Martha Bridegam <mabjo DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3F6AAEF3.49A080C4 DeleteThis @pacbell.net>...
 > (snip)
 >
  > > Later, in 1944, he writes again thanking Ogden for a "booklet" and says, "I was
  > > aware, of course, that you have much to put up with from the Esperanto people,
  > > and that was why you drew attention to their very unfortunate choice for the verb
  > > 'to be' or whatever it is.
 >
 > I just got around to reading this interesting post (and thank you for
 > researching this so thoroughly!) and was amused by the above. I
 > suspect that what Ogden had brought up is the normal Esperanto
 > expression equivalent to English "How are you?", which is "Kiel vi
 > fartas?". The verb "farti" is cognate with English "fare", so a more
 > literal translation would be "How are you faring?". Of course
 > Zamenhof knew very little English (and as a mid-Victorian was unlikely
 > to have been taught the vulgarism in question, anyway!), and it's not
 > a problem for speakers of most other languages. It is in fact very
 > difficult to avoid this kind of problem; almost every pair of
 > languages will have espressions which sound anywhere from comic to
 > obscene to the speakers of another language (Say "Don't touch my
 > moustache" to a Jpanese speaker and he or she will probably reply with
 > the Japense equivalent of "You're welcome!", because of what the
 > English phrase sounds like to Japanese ear). Interstingly there is
 > another such "collision" between Esperanto and French: the most common
 > way of saying "Please" in Espernati is "mi petas", which sounds
 > (again!) like you're talking about farting, to the French....

LOL. Thanks.

Of course English-speakers also have trouble with journeys in German, seals in French, and beef
soup in Vietnamese.

And via a church volunteer who hosted refugee families 20 years ago, I understand the hymn "Joy
to the World" has a phrase that sounds obscene in Khmer. Can anyone confirm that?

 > ...but possibly Ido-ists are even worse....

<chuckle>


 > ...
 > George, who doesn't find it hard to see how Orwell got from being
 > interested in planlangs and artlangs to Newspeak*
 >
 > * If you read P&TEL (and another one of the essays from about that
 > time, whose name I disremember now, you can see his concer with how
 > the corruption, banalization, sloganizing etc of language corrupts and
 > trivializes political thought and discourse. Once he came up with the
 > idea of IngSoc, it would be natural to take the Stalinist and
 > Hitlerite developments to their apparent logical conclusion, and once
 > he had the society, he needed a language for it. Where else would he
 > look for the features of that language than in the artlangs with which
 > he was familiar?

Maybe it goes to show that mirror images (cooperatively motivated artificial language;
coercively motivated artificial language) are closer to each other than orthogonal things
(organically developed language; artificial language).

 >
 >
 > BTW FWIW, having read quite a bit of Soviet and Chinese propaganda in
 > Esperanto, I can report that it is apparently just as easy to commit
 > the sins GO talks about in P&TEL in Epsernato as it is in English...
 > Sad

Thanks. Nobody had put that question yet and it's a great answer.

But do you mean Soviet and Chinese official propagandists wrote in Esperanto, or did
Esperantists translate the stuff?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pricerbumanto

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Since: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 3



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: Esperanto and Basic English [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Martha Bridegam <bridegam DeleteThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3F74EAE6.3923B397 DeleteThis @pacbell.net>...
> But do you mean Soviet and Chinese official propagandists wrote in Esperanto, or did
> Esperantists translate the stuff?

Not sure. In most cases, I would guess that they were translations,
but there certainly were also "offical" Esperantists in socialist
countries, who may sometimes have written stuff originally in
Esperanto. My instinct, though, is that the people I know, or knew
_of_, who were likely to write originally in Esperanto, were also not
enthusiastic Stalinists or apparatchiki generally. One of my friends
used to work for "El Popola Cxinio", and it's possible that he
occasionally wrote stuff "to order". I do remember that during
cultural Revolution times, and afterward up to the rehabilitation of
Deng Hsiao Ping, some of the stuff in EPCx was pretty turgid! (EPCx
no longer exists in print, only in a web version) I say _some of the
stuff_, because there was alwys perfectly good content, too, e.g.
articles on acupuncture or tai chi, straight reportage of news from
the "Esperanto world", etc.

George
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