Excalibur #2

Steve-o Stonebraker <sstoneb DeleteThis @fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in
news:slrncdr75r.iap.sstoneb@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu:

 > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:56:16 +0100, teepee wrote:
  >> Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking
  >> about...
 >
 > Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
 > New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.
 >
 > Which is incredibly retarded. On the other hand, I disliked most of
 > Morrison's run, so seeing parts of it retconned does give me a small,
 > petty sense of satisfaction.
 >
 > I assume we'll get further explanation in later isses about where this
 > imposter came from. I *suppose* it's the same guy that Xavier has in
 > the coffin who he said had the mutant power to come back from the
 > dead. And, apparently, he also has the mutant power to have Magneto's
 > mutant powers. Or maybe that was just the sentient bacteria Sublime's
 > doing, making him seem like he was actually Magneto. ::sigh::

Unless Claremont just drops the whole thing.

I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
Magneto acted like he did. If so, he might have seen Morrison as
ignoring everything that had been done with Magneto that made him
more human and more a shades of grey character, and thus wouldn't
have any issue with hitting his own equally crappy reset button by
claiming Morrison's Magneto was an out-of-nowhere duplicate with his
own insane agenda.

The biggest problem being that Morrison's Magneto was human and
actually didn't ignore past incarnations. Yes, he was psychotically
evil, but he was also at best a raving drug addict and at worst
"possessed" by Sublime (since the drug he was using *was* Sublime.)
As for why he would go down that path at the start, he only saw Kick
as a power enhancing device. And we all know that Magneto has been
quite willing in the past to use questionable power enhancing
devices, and as well to ignore or rationalize side effects from such
devices or even his own powers (as Claremont has him do in just this
issue no less, when he brushes aside his headaches). And once he
starts with Kick, his own motivations no longer really matter as
he has fallen into the control of Sublime (similar to Beast). And
even if you say that Sublime didn't have such control over him, it
didn't need to. The general side effects of Kick (which were what
Sublime wanted anyway) would have pushed him over the edge anyway.
As for sacrificing Genosha, we don't know when he started with
Kick/Sublime. (Heck, Claremont could have used Kick/Sublime as the
justification for years of pre-Morrison Magneto behavior if he had
wanted to.) Or maybe he really did only have enough power to save
himself at the time, and not the power to take everything on, and
rationalized things like his master revenge plot.

Rather sad that Claremont decided not to "play fair" with one of
Morrison's better leftovers... Having Magneto eventually return
with all of that on his shoulders would have been a better character
to deal with to me, rather than having Magneto "repentant" because
someone pretended to be him and killed people in his name. (And there
were ways to have Magneto return. Including the somewhat silly
idea of having him able to survive headless. Hey, he was on Kick,
maybe he had enough traces left to boost his powers still...)

It isn't like Claremont outright *needed* Magneto for Excalibur.
It really does look like an attempt to return Magneto's character to
his vision after seeing it "destroyed" (and not the death itself,
but the changes), but Claremont's version of Magneto *wasn't* actually
hurt by Morrison's.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

"Steve-o Stonebraker" <sstoneb.DeleteThis@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote

 > Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
 > New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.

Don't they know how weak that is? How totally lame? If I was a writer I'd be
embarrassed to work for Marvel.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Can You Say "Joseph Reborn" I know you can.
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:35:29 GMT,Billy Bissette
<baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote

 > It isn't like Claremont outright *needed* Magneto for Excalibur.

I think he did, as someones pointed out, look at the 3 established
characters so far..
Charles- Pro-Mutant tolerance and assimilation
Erik- Mutants as Homo-Superior over Homo-sapiens
Callisto- total seperation from humanity
All three valid but totally dichotomous postions in the rebuilding of
a mutant state..

Now I just can't work out why he needs Warren there...

Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:09:21 +0100, Christian Smith
<christian.DeleteThis@jasdigital.com> wrote:

 >On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:35:29 GMT,Billy Bissette
 ><baines.DeleteThis@coastalnet.com> wrote

  >> It isn't like Claremont outright *needed* Magneto for Excalibur.

 >I think he did, as someones pointed out, look at the 3 established
 >characters so far..
 >Charles- Pro-Mutant tolerance and assimilation
 >Erik- Mutants as Homo-Superior over Homo-sapiens
 >Callisto- total seperation from humanity
 >All three valid but totally dichotomous postions in the rebuilding of
 >a mutant state..

 >Now I just can't work out why he needs Warren there...

Total assimilation?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Christian Smith <christian.DeleteThis@jasdigital.com> wrote in
news:bssrd0tcmidhi2bnpv16p44jifu951aojg@4ax.com:
 > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:35:29 GMT,Billy Bissette
 > <baines.DeleteThis@coastalnet.com> wrote
 >
  >> It isn't like Claremont outright *needed* Magneto for Excalibur.
 >
 > I think he did, as someones pointed out, look at the 3 established
 > characters so far..
 > Charles- Pro-Mutant tolerance and assimilation
 > Erik- Mutants as Homo-Superior over Homo-sapiens
 > Callisto- total seperation from humanity
 > All three valid but totally dichotomous postions in the rebuilding of
 > a mutant state..
 >
 > Now I just can't work out why he needs Warren there...

Except that that *isn't* the Magneto he has in issue 2. This
Erik refers to himself as "contrary to popular belief" is "only
human." And even jokes "Homo Sapiens Not-Quite-Superior" when
Xavier describes mutants as potentially a work-in-progress by nature,
and seems willing to accept the mutant gene being fairly fluid when
Xavier suggests the point. Also, he's not blaming humans for anything,
other than a passing comment about Genosha being built on the backs
of mutant slaves, and that is in regards to mutant Genosha being
destroyed and not even a comment against regular humans.

Seemingly, Erik is here only because it is Genosha. He was the
ruler, it is gone, he is now the ruler without a kingdom who has a new
drive to protect and rebuild.

If he wanted homo-superior, he could have asked for Austen's
wacko-Polaris. He'd even get magnetic master in the bargain.


As for Callisto being there, I can only assume that is because
Claremont likes the character and didn't have anyone better free.
She's there from a request of Ororo to look after Xavier to make
sure he doesn't do anything stupid, like ally himself with Magneto.
(Even allowing that Magneto isn't Morrison Magneto, she is concerned
over how it would look for the two to be together.) She even attacks
Magneto, is then attacked by Wicked, and then after a Freakshow-
induced laugh at Unus' expense, she forgets all about attacking
Magneto, instead being all happy family with him...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

teepee wrote:
 > Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking about...

It seems perfectly self-explanatory to me... and you know what I'm talking
about.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Billy Bissette wrote:
   >>> Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking
   >>> about...
  >>
  >> Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
  >> New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.
  >>
  >> Which is incredibly retarded. On the other hand, I disliked most of
  >> Morrison's run, so seeing parts of it retconned does give me a small,
  >> petty sense of satisfaction.
  >>
  >> I assume we'll get further explanation in later isses about where this
  >> imposter came from. I *suppose* it's the same guy that Xavier has in
  >> the coffin who he said had the mutant power to come back from the
  >> dead. And, apparently, he also has the mutant power to have Magneto's
  >> mutant powers. Or maybe that was just the sentient bacteria Sublime's
  >> doing, making him seem like he was actually Magneto. ::sigh::
 >
 > Unless Claremont just drops the whole thing.
 >
 > I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
 > Magneto acted like he did.

Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do with
Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix Morrison's
destruction of Magneto.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Steve-o Stonebraker <sstoneb RemoveThis @fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in
news:slrncdr75r.iap.sstoneb@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu:

 > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:56:16 +0100, teepee wrote:
  >> Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking
  >> about...
 >
 > Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
 > New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.
 >
 > Which is incredibly retarded. On the other hand, I disliked most of
 > Morrison's run, so seeing parts of it retconned does give me a small,

Yes, but if even someone who didn't like Morrison's run finds this to be
"incredibly retarted", chances are that it _is_ incredibly retarted. In
fact, that was all it took for me to know that Excalibur was not a book
I would continue to buy.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

blakgard DeleteThis @aol.coma.org (The Black Guardian) wrote in
news:20040626232011.03855.00000447@mb-m19.aol.com:
 > Billy Bissette wrote:
  >> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
  >> Magneto acted like he did.
 >
 > Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
 > with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
 > Morrison's destruction of Magneto.

Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...

Is it a weird twist on Dark Phoenix? Mags had to die due to all of the
deaths he caused, but wait... It wasn't Magneto, it was a Magneto
duplicate! The real Magneto didn't kill all of those people or let an
entire nation be wiped out, but feels really guilty that someone with
his face did it in his name. So it is okay to use Magneto in the future
as a good guy.

Kind of like claiming Larsen's Wolverine was a Skrull as well. Takes
away that whole non-hero stench of aiding in the extinction of countless
sentient races that occurred in the Galactus storyline. Sure, Logan
*thought* he was doing the right thing, but that doesn't matter. Wait,
no Larsen isn't allowed to have Logan actually mourn their deaths, and
Cable has to be in the next issue. Wait, it was never Logan at all, it
was a Skrull who thought he was Logan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Billy Bissette wrote:
   >>> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
   >>> Magneto acted like he did.
  >>
  >> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
  >> with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
  >> Morrison's destruction of Magneto.
 >
 > Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
 > are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...

I am sure. Austen's been quite vocal about this.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

Steve-o Stonebraker <sstoneb.DeleteThis@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message news:<slrncdr75r.iap.sstoneb.DeleteThis@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu>...
 > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:56:16 +0100, teepee wrote:
  > > Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking about...
 >
 > Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
 > New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.
 >
 > Which is incredibly retarded. On the other hand, I disliked most of
 > Morrison's run, so seeing parts of it retconned does give me a small,
 > petty sense of satisfaction.
 >
 > I assume we'll get further explanation in later isses about where this
 > imposter came from. I *suppose* it's the same guy that Xavier has in the
 > coffin who he said had the mutant power to come back from the dead. And,
 > apparently, he also has the mutant power to have Magneto's mutant powers.
 > Or maybe that was just the sentient bacteria Sublime's doing, making him
 > seem like he was actually Magneto. ::sigh::
 >
 > --Steve-o


Are you familiar with Mimic and Synch? THey have the mutant power to
have other people's mutant powers. Hell, that would even make a bit
of sense with his ability to come back from the dead. His body can
work around wounds, if not healing them, finding a way to keep him
alive. Sort of like how they brought Marrow back to life.

JLB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2 

 > Kind of like claiming Larsen's Wolverine was a Skrull as well. Takes
 >away that whole non-hero stench of aiding in the extinction of countless
 >sentient races that occurred in the Galactus storyline. Sure, Logan
 >*thought* he was doing the right thing, but that doesn't matter. Wait,
 >no Larsen isn't allowed to have Logan actually mourn their deaths, and
 >Cable has to be in the next issue. Wait, it was never Logan at all, it
 >was a Skrull who thought he was Logan.
 >
 >
 >

That was the real Logan in the Galactus arc. Skrull Logan didn't start until
the issue where Nightcrawler showed up.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excalibur #2