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Excalibur #2

 
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sstoneb1

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Since: Jun 26, 2004
Posts: 10



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Excalibur #2 [spoilers] [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 27 Jun 2004 09:07:47 GMT, The Black Guardian wrote:
   >>> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
   >>> with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
   >>> Morrison's destruction of Magneto.
  >>
  >> Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
  >> are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...
 >
 > I am sure. Austen's been quite vocal about this.

Out of curiosity... where? I'd like to read his comments.

--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/" target="_blank">http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/</a>
sstoneb DeleteThis @yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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user231

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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 400



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:52 pm
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The Black Guardian <blakgard.DeleteThis@aol.coma.org> wrote:

: > I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
: > Magneto acted like he did.

: Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do with
: Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix Morrison's
: destruction of Magneto.

Too bad they didn't provide detailed instructions in how to do it right.

Shawn

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user231

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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 400



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:54 pm
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Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Yes, but if even someone who didn't like Morrison's run finds this to be
: "incredibly retarted", chances are that it _is_ incredibly retarted. In
: fact, that was all it took for me to know that Excalibur was not a book
: I would continue to buy.

Ditto. Aside from also not being very interested in Charles these days (I
suppose they're going to "fix" him as well?), and being mad that they
fired Kordey. Three strikes, it's out.

Shawn
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jinxdv8

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Since: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 105



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:54 pm
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Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:<cbmqgc$9c5$11@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu>...
 > The Black Guardian <blakgard DeleteThis @aol.coma.org> wrote:
 >
 > : > I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
 > : > Magneto acted like he did.
 >
 > : Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do with
 > : Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix Morrison's
 > : destruction of Magneto.
 >
 > Too bad they didn't provide detailed instructions in how to do it right.
 >
 > Shawn

The death would be harder to undo than the extreme behavior which had
the built in get out of responsibility card of Magneto having used
KICK and therefore being under the influence of Sublime.

Where was it disclosed that TPTB demanded a retcon of Morrison's
Magneto? Or is this just speculation?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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baines

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Since: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 406



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:38 pm
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blakgard DeleteThis @aol.coma.org (The Black Guardian) wrote in
news:20040627050747.15906.00000380@mb-m21.aol.com:

 > Billy Bissette wrote:
   >>>> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
   >>>> Magneto acted like he did.
   >>>
   >>> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
   >>> with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
   >>> Morrison's destruction of Magneto.
  >>
  >> Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
  >> are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...
 >
 > I am sure. Austen's been quite vocal about this.

Yes, I know about Xorn. But has Austen said that TPTB are responsible
for the return of Magneto as well?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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baines

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Since: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 406



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:44 pm
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twihlite RemoveThis @aol.com (Twihlite) wrote in
news:20040627101530.11452.00000371@mb-m23.aol.com:

  >> Kind of like claiming Larsen's Wolverine was a Skrull as well. Takes
  >>away that whole non-hero stench of aiding in the extinction of
  >>countless sentient races that occurred in the Galactus storyline.
  >>Sure, Logan *thought* he was doing the right thing, but that doesn't
  >>matter. Wait, no Larsen isn't allowed to have Logan actually mourn
  >>their deaths, and Cable has to be in the next issue. Wait, it was
  >>never Logan at all, it was a Skrull who thought he was Logan.
 >
 > That was the real Logan in the Galactus arc. Skrull Logan didn't
 > start until the issue where Nightcrawler showed up.

Hrm... I stopped reading around that time, and people were saying
that Skrull Logan was pretty much negating Larsen's entire run.

I know that Larsen complained about how he was being handcuffed on
the run in certain aspects, and wasn't allowed to actually have Logan
brood over the consequences of his actions. That he pretty much had
to ignore it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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blakgard1

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Since: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 999



(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:17 am
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Steve-o Stonerbraker wrote:
   >>>> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
   >>>> with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
   >>>> Morrison's destruction of Magneto.
   >>>
   >>> Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
   >>> are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...
  >>
  >> I am sure. Austen's been quite vocal about this.
 >
 > Out of curiosity... where? I'd like to read his comments.

He's posted some things on MillarWorld.com. I don't have an exact link.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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blakgard1

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Since: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 999



(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:19 am
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Shawn H wrote:
   >>> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
   >>> Magneto acted like he did.
  >>
  >> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do with
  >> Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix Morrison's
  >> destruction of Magneto.
 >
 > Too bad they didn't provide detailed instructions in how to do it right.

In my opinion, they obviously don't have to, because it's perfect. I'm enjoying
Excalibur more than I did the latter half of Morrison's garbage.
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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blakgard1

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Since: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 999



(Msg. 24) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 am
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Billy Bissette wrote:
   >>>>> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
   >>>>> Magneto acted like he did.
   >>>>
   >>>> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do
   >>>> with Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix
   >>>> Morrison's destruction of Magneto.
   >>>
   >>> Are you sure? I admit that it is a possibility, considering TPTB
   >>> are responsible for the "return" of Xorn...
  >>
  >> I am sure. Austen's been quite vocal about this.
 >
 > Yes, I know about Xorn. But has Austen said that TPTB are responsible
 > for the return of Magneto as well?

The gist of it was that Marvel editors were extremely displeased with "Planet
X" and "Here Comes Tomorrow."
--
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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alex4

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Since: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 34



(Msg. 25) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:37 pm
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"JLB" <barnett.RemoveThis@shentel.net> wrote in message
news:c7b2ff96.0406270937.65e36e6@posting.google.com
 > Steve-o Stonebraker <sstoneb.RemoveThis@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
 > news:<slrncdr75r.iap.sstoneb.RemoveThis@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu>...
  >> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:56:16 +0100, teepee wrote:
   >>> Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm talking
   >>> about...
  >>
  >> Well, apparently the Magneto who was posing as Xorn and destroyed
  >> New York and whatnot wasn't really Magneto, but was an imposter.
  >>
  >> Which is incredibly retarded. On the other hand, I disliked most of
  >> Morrison's run, so seeing parts of it retconned does give me a small,
  >> petty sense of satisfaction.
  >>
  >> I assume we'll get further explanation in later isses about where this
  >> imposter came from. I *suppose* it's the same guy that Xavier has in
  >> the
  >> coffin who he said had the mutant power to come back from the dead.
  >> And,
  >> apparently, he also has the mutant power to have Magneto's mutant
  >> powers.
  >> Or maybe that was just the sentient bacteria Sublime's doing, making him
  >> seem like he was actually Magneto. ::sigh::
  >>
  >> --Steve-o
 >
 >
 > Are you familiar with Mimic and Synch? THey have the mutant power to
 > have other people's mutant powers. Hell, that would even make a bit
 > of sense with his ability to come back from the dead. His body can
 > work around wounds, if not healing them, finding a way to keep him
 > alive. Sort of like how they brought Marrow back to life.

So, we have a mutant who can A) copy another mutant's powers and their
physical form (we've had both of these concepts for a long time - Rogue and
Mystique, anyone ?) and B) survive mortal injuries such as being
decapitated. Wolverine can survive being decapitated, can't he ?

Okay, so this mystery mutant's abilities are further augmented by taking
Kick, which is actually Sublime. So under the influence of Sublime, this
mystery mutant uses Magneto's powers to kill 5,000 people and put up a
force field to keep the big Super-people out (The Avengers, the FF etc)
while he does it.

We have a mutant pretending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn, depending
on how far back this goes. Claremont's Excalibur Magneto seemed surprised
by the whole business, so it seems to go back pretty far.

Would it not make sense to hand this mutant over to SHIELD (assuming that's
possible, a mutant that can copy Magneto's powers would have to be pretty
powerful) or whatever other authorities Xavier chooses, thus clearing
Magneto's name so that he and Xavier can get on with the business of
rebuilding Genosha in the open ? The Claremont Magneto actually seemed so
disgusted that he might even use his own powers to help undo what his
impostor had done.

It's irritating that Morrison's work is being retconned like this only a
few months later.

Alex<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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clee2

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Since: Jun 28, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:27 pm
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In article <Xns95147FC093356whacholookinat DeleteThis @207.69.154.206>,
baines DeleteThis @coastalnet.com says...
 >
 >
 >Steve-o Stonebraker <sstoneb DeleteThis @fox.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in
 >news:slrncdr75r.iap.sstoneb@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu:
 >
  >> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:56:16 +0100, teepee wrote:
   >>> Can anyone explain wtf is going on here. You know what I'm
   >>> talking
   >>> about...
  >>
 > The biggest problem being that Morrison's Magneto was human and
 >actually didn't ignore past incarnations. Yes, he was psychotically
 >evil, but he was also at best a raving drug addict and at worst
 >"possessed" by Sublime (since the drug he was using *was* Sublime.)
 >As for why he would go down that path at the start, he only saw Kick
 >as a power enhancing device. And we all know that Magneto has been
 >quite willing in the past to use questionable power enhancing
 >devices, and as well to ignore or rationalize side effects from such
 >devices or even his own powers (as Claremont has him do in just this
 >issue no less, when he brushes aside his headaches). And once he
 >starts with Kick, his own motivations no longer really matter as
 >he has fallen into the control of Sublime (similar to Beast). And
 >even if you say that Sublime didn't have such control over him, it
 >didn't need to. The general side effects of Kick (which were what
 >Sublime wanted anyway) would have pushed him over the edge anyway.
 >As for sacrificing Genosha, we don't know when he started with
 >Kick/Sublime. (Heck, Claremont could have used Kick/Sublime as the
 >justification for years of pre-Morrison Magneto behavior if he had
 >wanted to.) Or maybe he really did only have enough power to save
 >himself at the time, and not the power to take everything on, and
 >rationalized things like his master revenge plot.
 >
 > Rather sad that Claremont decided not to "play fair" with one of
 >Morrison's better leftovers... Having Magneto eventually return
 >with all of that on his shoulders would have been a better character
 >to deal with to me, rather than having Magneto "repentant" because
 >someone pretended to be him and killed people in his name. (And
 >there

You have got to be kidding. The sooner Morrison's Magneto crap
is burried and forgotten the better.

Magneto for all his flaws first and foremost is *NOT* a drug user. He
never would have considered using "Kick/Sublime" for an instant.

There are some people who would never consider doing drugs.
Magneto is one of those personality types. Call him a
stick-in-the-mud or whatever.

This is where yours and Morrison's premise for Magento fall apart.

From the start.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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yu239006

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Since: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 129



(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:08 pm
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Alex Peckover (alex@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net) wrote:
: > Are you familiar with Mimic and Synch? THey have the mutant power to
: > have other people's mutant powers. Hell, that would even make a bit
: > of sense with his ability to come back from the dead. His body can
: > work around wounds, if not healing them, finding a way to keep him
: > alive. Sort of like how they brought Marrow back to life.
:
: So, we have a mutant who can A) copy another mutant's powers and their
: physical form (we've had both of these concepts for a long time - Rogue and
: Mystique, anyone ?) and B) survive mortal injuries such as being
: decapitated. Wolverine can survive being decapitated, can't he ?

Well, we don't actually _know_ they have the ability to come back from the
dead. It could have been some sort of taunting. (I mean, if you assume
he was telling the truth about everything, you could have both being
true... it _was_ the real Magneto, but when he died he created a new body
in Genosha which either had partial amnesia or is just plain lying).

And of course, as to mutants who can copy powers and physical form, we
have Copycat. Dead, supposedly, but only 'Marvel dead', especially since
it only happened in a satellite title. She also had the problem of
thinking she was the person she was copying. It's probably not her (she
doesn't really have any motive that I can see), it does set precedent.

Could be some sort of astral entity like the Shadow King, I suppose,
infiltrating some mutant.

Could not be a shapeshifter at all, but a reality-manipulator. In fact,
this would solve one of the annoying danglers in Morrison. The Cuckoos
sensed there was something wrong with the Universe. This was before
Magneto died, before Jean died. The 'reset' only took them to Jean's
funeral, so what the Cuckoos sensed, a wrongness to the universe, still
existed. Maybe they were sensing Xorneto's reality manipulation powers at
play.

Maybe it's... (duh-duh-dahhh) Cassandra Nova herself! After all, she
survived once, when Xavier killed her in the womb. She survived again
when she jumped into Xavier. Her whole goal was to destroy Xavier's
dream, and being Magneto while destroying New York would do a hell of a
lot of damage to it. Sure, she was trapped inside Stuff and became
Ernst... or was she? After all, the X-Men just let her walk around free,
she was in Xorn's class. Maybe she somehow survived again and made a
switch... she became Xorn, and Xorn's passive helpful nature was stuck in
the Stuff body, which couldn't contain his whole mind, so he didn't know
who he was. He was the one who was eventually 'redeemed' (but never
quite figured out who he was), and Cassandra took up her old tricks in
the Xorn body. Fueled by Kick, she used Xorn's nascent
reality-manipulation powers and turned from Xorn into Xavier's greatest
enemy, as Cassie already saw herself, and set about destroying his
dream.

(Okay, this really only works if they also didn't find another Xorn, but
it does have a sort of thematic resonance, and reforming a 'pure evil
force of nature entity' was pretty iffy)

: Would it not make sense to hand this mutant over to SHIELD (assuming that's
: possible, a mutant that can copy Magneto's powers would have to be pretty
: powerful) or whatever other authorities Xavier chooses, thus clearing
: Magneto's name so that he and Xavier can get on with the business of
: rebuilding Genosha in the open ? The Claremont Magneto actually seemed so
: disgusted that he might even use his own powers to help undo what his
: impostor had done.

This assumes there's any biological way to tell that he's not actually
Magneto.

Incidentally, this brings up another point.

Let's just say, hypothetically, that the _Excalibur_ Magneto is false, one
of the above examples, some Copycat like mutant who realized that Genosha
not only needs a leader, it needs _its_ leader, Magneto, and sets about
becoming him. Maybe it was a confidant of Magneto and got close enough to
copy his personality, memory, and powers but is only using that now.

Maybe down the line he _becomes_ Magneto in the whole 'the actor becomes
the role' (maybe his powers are such that if he doesn't give up a role
by a certain time, he can no longer resume his shape) type plot.

How would people feel if this was the case?

: It's irritating that Morrison's work is being retconned like this only a
: few months later.

Yeah, I was hoping Morrison's work would be retconned by him right at the
end of his run. But, better late than never. Wink

Peter Dimitriadis
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terrafamilia

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Since: Mar 07, 2004
Posts: 36



(Msg. 28) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:08 pm
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Peter Dimitriadis wrote:

 > Maybe it's... (duh-duh-dahhh) Cassandra Nova herself!

No, it's *Magneto's* mummudrai!

Ciao,

Terrafamilia<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user231

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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 400



(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:16 pm
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The Black Guardian <blakgard.TakeThisOut@aol.coma.org> wrote:
: Shawn H wrote:
: >>> I get the feeling that Claremont just didn't "get" why Morrison's
: >>> Magneto acted like he did.
: >>
: >> Nor did many fans. Nor did Marvel editors. It really has nothing to do with
: >> Claremont. The order came down from TPTB at Marvel to fix Morrison's
: >> destruction of Magneto.
: >
: > Too bad they didn't provide detailed instructions in how to do it right.

: In my opinion, they obviously don't have to, because it's perfect. I'm enjoying
: Excalibur more than I did the latter half of Morrison's garbage.

Wow. Well, I guess it's good that someone is satisfied, at least.

Shawn
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user231

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Posts: 400



(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:17 pm
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JinX <jinxdv8 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

: > Too bad they didn't provide detailed instructions in how to do it right.

: The death would be harder to undo than the extreme behavior which had
: the built in get out of responsibility card of Magneto having used
: KICK and therefore being under the influence of Sublime.

: Where was it disclosed that TPTB demanded a retcon of Morrison's
: Magneto? Or is this just speculation?

Apparently Austen has publically stated so.

Shawn
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