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Since: Oct 30, 2004 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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In article <gFDktOMRTvtBFwC+@merlyn.demon.co.uk>, Dr John Stockton wrote:
> I never have understood why HTML/Web, being started at CERN, did not /ab
> initio/ have a representation for maths symbols, including Greeks, in
> which case earlier browsers would have implemented them.
>
Dunno in detail, but considering the timescale, I'd guess that most
of their mathematical output was already going around as either TeX code
or as the resultant image-like files, and they could safely assume that
anyone with complex mark-up requirements would have access to, and be
familiar with the use of, the relevant programming languages. (Remember
how TeX came about? Wirth, of Pascal infamy, was writing his "Art of
Programming" /magnum opus/ and became dissatisfied with the poor state of
current document processing and printing tools, so he took several years
on a tangent and created TeX. This was, broadly, contemporaneous with the
start of Postscript and it's proselytisation by Adobe. Both TeX and
Postscript are programming languages.) So, original HTML had mark-up for
presenting source code cleanly (<pre>...</pre>) without any interleaved
presentational tags which could confuse a copy'n'paste recompilation. But
it did not have an interface for launching other code processors - they
came with NetScape's implementation of the "plug-in" architecture IIRC.
Have you considered presenting your material as PDFs? The reader
technology is pretty ubiquitous, and it has the necessary layout
capabilities. There are a sufficiency of Free (and free!) tools for
producing PDFs these days. (I personally install a "fake" colour laser
PostScript printer on a FILE: port, then use a paid-for version of
Ghostscript to convert the .PS file to a .PDF file. But the free version
is just as effective.)
Hmmm, 2nd thoughts ... /ab initio/ ? Well, HTML was built as an
implementation of a SGML-compliant scheme, which may have constrained it
to use the then common 8-bit ASCII character encoding forms. Maybe it
didn't have that freedom available at the time of birth?
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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Since: Jul 09, 2003 Posts: 169
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:21 pm
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dr John Stockton wrote:
> I never have understood why HTML/Web, being started at CERN, did not /ab
> initio/ have a representation for maths symbols, including Greeks, in
> which case earlier browsers would have implemented them.
Because HTML was really never intended for the widespread use that it
has received. It was designed as a simple method to create marked up
text and share it with others who could add their own marked up text and
so on. Its booming popularity wasn't expected or planned, as evidenced
by the fact that it didn't really get used for the purpose for which it
was intended.
As for why mathematical markup specifically didn't show up, it's
probably because the original intended goal didn't really have anything
to do with mathematics. Adding markup for mathematics takes a lot of
work both in design and implementation, and isn't the type of thing
you'd add unless that was specifically the intent of the markup
language. HTML wasn't intended to deal mostly with mathematics, so
that's why it doesn't have it.
Other mathematical markup systems exist, like MathML (a variety of XML),
which are gaining in popularity (MathML support exists out of the box in
Mozilla).
--
Erik Max Francis && max RemoveThis @alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
Women are equal because they are not different any more.
-- Erich Fromm >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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Since: Jul 14, 2003 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aidan Karley <aidan RemoveThis @mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in
news:VA.00000372.3af214e1@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid:
> Wirth, of Pascal infamy, was writing his "Art of
> Programming" /magnum opus/ and became dissatisfied with the poor state
> of current document processing and printing tools, so he took several
> years on a tangent and created TeX.
Um, perhaps you are a bit confused. "The Art of Computer Programming" and
TeX are both by Donald Knuth, not Niklaus Wirth. (Otherwise your
description of TeX's origins sounds correct to me)
Joke about Niklaus Wirth:
"Europeans tend to pronounce his name properly, as Nih-klaus Virt, while
Americans usually mangle it into something like Nickles Worth. That has led
to the programmer joke saying Europeans call him by name while Americans
call him by value." >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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Since: Jul 02, 2004 Posts: 18
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:14 pm
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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JRS: In article <J4adnfES99ogLiXcRVn-tw.TakeThisOut@speakeasy.net>, dated Thu, 9
Dec 2004 12:21:16, seen in news:alt.books.larry-niven, Erik Max Francis
<max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> posted :
>Dr John Stockton wrote:
>
>> I never have understood why HTML/Web, being started at CERN, did not /ab
>> initio/ have a representation for maths symbols, including Greeks, in
>> which case earlier browsers would have implemented them.
>
>Because HTML was really never intended for the widespread use that it
>has received. It was designed as a simple method to create marked up
>text and share it with others who could add their own marked up text and
>so on. Its booming popularity wasn't expected or planned, as evidenced
>by the fact that it didn't really get used for the purpose for which it
>was intended.
Nevertheless, much can be done just with those symbols (and sub/sup) -
in particular, one can designate all those Greek particles that places
like CERN love to create.
Maybe the earliest browsers used a more DOS-like system, with a limited
native character capability.
>As for why mathematical markup specifically didn't show up, it's
>probably because the original intended goal didn't really have anything
>to do with mathematics. Adding markup for mathematics takes a lot of
>work both in design and implementation, and isn't the type of thing
>you'd add unless that was specifically the intent of the markup
>language. HTML wasn't intended to deal mostly with mathematics, so
>that's why it doesn't have it.
I didn't suggest full mathematical markup, which is necessarily complex.
But I have used a system, dating from the '80s or earlier, which had a
number of advantages over what HTML offers. For example, consider the
utility of an expanding space - it counts as an ordinary space until the
composition of a line is otherwise finished, when all instances on the
line expand at the same rate until the line is full length - e.g.
<tab> S = U*T <this e-space has expanded by a large amount> Equation 1.
And the character !, which is needed only occasionally in scientific
text, converted the next character to italics (IIRC, !! gave !, and an
italic ! had to be constructed in an italicised string).
>Other mathematical markup systems exist, like MathML (a variety of XML),
>which are gaining in popularity (MathML support exists out of the box in
>Mozilla).
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk / ??.Stockton@physics.org ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Correct <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (SoRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SoRFC1036)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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Since: Jul 02, 2004 Posts: 18
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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JRS: In article <VA.00000372.3af214e1.DeleteThis@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid>,
dated Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:00:16, seen in news:alt.books.larry-niven,
Aidan Karley <aidan.DeleteThis@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid> posted :
> Have you considered presenting your material as PDFs? The reader
>technology is pretty ubiquitous, and it has the necessary layout
>capabilities. There are a sufficiency of Free (and free!) tools for
>producing PDFs these days. (I personally install a "fake" colour laser
>PostScript printer on a FILE: port, then use a paid-for version of
>Ghostscript to convert the .PS file to a .PDF file. But the free version
>is just as effective.)
As it is, my present fairly modest computer satisfies my needs; I don't
want to fetch and install new programs that may need more resources.
The few that don't have any access to browsers adequately compatible
with what is after all the dominant product will have to work a little
harder to understand such pages; they can for example print them out and
manually overprint what is needed, either by treating it as an
intellectual puzzle or by reading the source. After all, I managed to
generate the equations without any external aid, except as cited.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
some Astro stuff via astro.htm, gravity0.htm; quotes.htm; pascal.htm; &c, &c.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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Since: Oct 30, 2004 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns95BAD07A6CAD6pt101594.RemoveThis@129.250.170.82>, Ross Presser
wrote:
> "The Art of Computer Programming" and
> TeX are both by Donald Knuth, not Niklaus Wirth.
>
ARRRRGGGGHHHHH
[sharpens edge of keyboard]
[commits sepukku by hara kiri using said keyboard. No second.]
Ooops, had to spend the last week offline, forgot to send this
one before I disconnected.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 >> Stay informed about: FW: "First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - the Screenplay! |
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