Fair Use, Copyrights, and Discussions

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:13:37 -0400, "Trek Barnes"
<asktrek.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> posted the following:

 >1 chapter of Lord of the Rings - (the current chapter)
 >the chapter would olny stay up for as long as the chapter was being
 >discussed and would be replaced with the next chapter the following week.
 >
 >Would this fall under fair use, or would it be violating the copyright?

Copyright violation.

While fair use is somewhat vague, this is pretty clear-cut.

-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:25 -0400, "jere7my tho?rpe" <j7y DeleteThis @liws.org>
wrote:

(space-saver snip)

 >Make sure the page is unlinked, so Google can't find it.

That might be easier said than done -- I put up a Web site
(non-Tolkien topic) in a sort of "first draft" form for some friends
and intended later on, when I was finished, to link it to various
search engines, including Google, but haven't finished it yet (it's
difficult to get motivated to do data base building when spare time is
so rare). It was never linked, therefore, to any search engine.

Some time later I was astonished one day to be searching on something
related to that site topic on Google and to have several pages of my
own unlinked Web site appear in the hit list. Makes me think that
Google finds everything (g).

Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.TakeThisOut@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:

 > Some time later I was astonished one day to be searching on something
 > related to that site topic on Google and to have several pages of my
 > own unlinked Web site appear in the hit list. Makes me think that
 > Google finds everything (g).

You can run from Google but you can't hide!


-- FotW

"If you must read newspapers and magazines at least
give yourself a mouthwash with The Lord of the Rings."

-- C.S. Lewis<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Trek Barnes" <asktrek DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >Would
 >it be fair use for me to have on my website:
 >
 >1 chapter of Lord of the Rings - (the current chapter)
 >the chapter would olny stay up for as long as the chapter was being
 >discussed and would be replaced with the next chapter the following week.
 >
 >Would this fall under fair use, or would it be violating the copyright?

The answer is that almost certainly it would be a violation.

Fair use involves quoting a _brief_ portion in the context of
scholarly discussion or criticism. "Scholarly" is not too rigid --
it encompasses what we do here, for instance -- but "brief" is the
key. The sort of thing contemplated by fair use is quoting a
sentence or two, at most a paragraph, and then adding your own
commentary, which usually would be longer than the quote.

You can see good examples of fair use, IMHO, in both Steuard's FAQs
and mine.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <9aSdnW4N7Le9Ng3dRVn-ig.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>,
"Trek Barnes" <asktrek.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

 > Ok, long-time lurker, I rarely post. I am considering haveing a chapter-by
 > chapter read through of LotR on a group of message baords I frequent. Would
 > it be fair use for me to have on my website:
 >
 > 1 chapter of Lord of the Rings - (the current chapter)
 > the chapter would olny stay up for as long as the chapter was being
 > discussed and would be replaced with the next chapter the following week.
 >
 > Would this fall under fair use, or would it be violating the copyright?
 >
 > Thanks for any advice given.
 >
 >


Lots of people talk about "fair use". Heck, a good portion of my
copyright class in law school was devoted to it. But, just for your
information, the actual U.S. Code section dealing with copyright reads
as follows:

"§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, [describing
copyright protections] the fair use of a copyrighted work, including
such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means
specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include ‹ 

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors."


Of course, in your situation it may not financially be an option, but
the best thing to do is ask an attorney.

Jon<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Belba Grubb from Stock" <barbb.DeleteThis@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:ob0390d5ud54rgr10o07c7vd2cas8f5vdo@4ax.com...
 > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:25 -0400, "jere7my tho?rpe" <j7y.DeleteThis@liws.org>
 > wrote:
 >
 > (space-saver snip)
 >
  > >Make sure the page is unlinked, so Google can't find it.
 >
 > That might be easier said than done -- I put up a Web site
 > (non-Tolkien topic) in a sort of "first draft" form for some friends
 > and intended later on, when I was finished, to link it to various
 > search engines, including Google, but haven't finished it yet (it's
 > difficult to get motivated to do data base building when spare time is
 > so rare). It was never linked, therefore, to any search engine.

Perhaps one of your "friends" put a URL out on their own page, which was
linked to something else that Google looks at. Google doesn't need you to
send it pages, it just traverses URLs.

If you really want to hide something, use a script, and check who's
requesting the page.

 > Some time later I was astonished one day to be searching on something
 > related to that site topic on Google and to have several pages of my
 > own unlinked Web site appear in the hit list. Makes me think that
 > Google finds everything (g).
 >
 > Barb<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:

 > Fair use involves quoting a _brief_ portion in the context of
 > scholarly discussion or criticism. "Scholarly" is not too rigid --
 > it encompasses what we do here, for instance -- but "brief" is the
 > key. The sort of thing contemplated by fair use is quoting a
 > sentence or two, at most a paragraph, and then adding your own
 > commentary, which usually would be longer than the quote.

What about quoting huge chunks of text with very little commentary. That
happens around here quite often...

 > You can see good examples of fair use, IMHO, in both Steuard's FAQs
 > and mine.

What is the longest continuous piece of quoted text in either FAQ?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <MPG.1afb704cd648910698c2c1.TakeThisOut@news.odyssey.net>,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:

 > Fair use involves quoting a _brief_ portion in the context of
 > scholarly discussion or criticism. "Scholarly" is not too rigid --
 > it encompasses what we do here, for instance -- but "brief" is the
 > key. The sort of thing contemplated by fair use is quoting a
 > sentence or two, at most a paragraph, and then adding your own
 > commentary, which usually would be longer than the quote.

Although the amount of a copyright work used is a *factor* (and often a
substantial one) in determining whether something is or isn't fair use,
it isn't necessarily dispositive of the issue. See my posting of the
relevant section of the Copyright Act.

Nor does fair use necessarily require scholarly criticism, although that
certainly won't hurt you. The best example I can think of is Luke
Skywalker (a/k/a/ Luther Campbell)'s use of substantial portions of the
copyrighted song "Oh, Pretty Woman" made famous by Roy Orbison. His
song wasn't quite scholarly criticism, but it was held to be fair use by
the U.S. Supreme Court. (I love the idea that the Justices had to
listen to the 2 Live Crew!)

Again, you'd have a much better argument that using a small portion for
scholarly criticism is fair use, but fair use is not limited to only
those situations.

Another example. I take my legally purchased CD, rip it to MP3, put it
on my computer and my iPod. I have probably violated sections 106 and
106A of the copyright act. But few would doubt that this technical
violation would not be fair use. It has no effect on the potential
market for or value of the work, and it is for purely personal
convenience. However, I'm copying the entire thing.

Fair use is a flexible concept, and a good lawyer could argue that
various things are or aren't fair use. The judges decide.

Cheers!

Jon<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article
<jgballar-keinspam-92B42A.18561030042004.TakeThisOut@netnews.comcast.net>,
"J.G. Ballard" <jgballar-keinspam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

 > The best example I can think of is Luke
 > Skywalker (a/k/a/ Luther Campbell)'s use of substantial portions of the
 > copyrighted song "Oh, Pretty Woman" made famous by Roy Orbison. His
 > song wasn't quite scholarly criticism, but it was held to be fair use by
 > the U.S. Supreme Court. (I love the idea that the Justices had to
 > listen to the 2 Live Crew!)

The decision in that case rested on different form of fair use than
"scholarly criticism." (Copyright law has an incomplete list of what
constitutes fair use.) In a sick sort of way, it was a parody of "Pretty
Woman" and parodies are protected as fair use under the assumption that
few authors will parody (make fun of) themselves. So, if parody wasn't
fair use, it would rarely be done.

That's why "Bored of the Rings" doesn't violate the LOTR copyright. The
argument as advanced by Houghton Mifflin defending Wind Done Gone was a
bit strained, but that may have been why a court, given the chance,
could have ruled that The Wind Done Gone was a parody of Gone with the
Wind. As is, the two parties settled out of court.

Unfortunately, the courts have yet to broaden parody to other humorous
uses. Someone who parodied Dr Seuss to describe the OJ Simpson trial
lost because their parody defense didn't stand. They were parodying the
trial of OJ rather than Dr. Seuss' books. That was unfortunate, since
the book really did expose the sick media circus around the trial.

For those thinking of writing something like Dr. Seuss, be advised that
Seuss' widow is about as nasty about threatening to sue as Christopher
Tolkien's lawyers. That's sad, given the content of the writings of both
authors. There's something to be said for a will that, on one's death,
releases all your writings to the public domain. It keeps your heirs
from trashing your legacy with their lawyers.

--Mike Perry, Seattle
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.InklingBooks.com/inklingblog" target="_blank">http://www.InklingBooks.com/inklingblog</a>

--
****************
Preorder Lord of the Ring DVDs and videos.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.inklingbooks.com/" target="_blank">http://www.inklingbooks.com/</a>
****************<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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 >Unfortunately, the courts have yet to broaden parody to other humorous
 >uses.

Would I be able to create a Neo-Nazi parody where Frodo and Legolas team up
with Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler and journey off on horseback to hunt
down Orcs???<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >What about quoting huge chunks of text with very little commentary. That
 >happens around here quite often...

"Huge" and "quite often"? Really? I can't remember ever seeing a
paragraph, and the vast majority of quotes aren't longer than a
couple of sentences.

 >What is the longest continuous piece of quoted text in either FAQ?

Browser broken?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
 > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
 > rec.arts.books.tolkien:
  >> What about quoting huge chunks of text with very little commentary.
  >> That happens around here quite often...
 >
 > "Huge" and "quite often"? Really? I can't remember ever seeing a
 > paragraph, and the vast majority of quotes aren't longer than a
 > couple of sentences.

I'll have to Google for this, but I do remember one person in particular
quoting huge amounts of text earlier this year.

  >> What is the longest continuous piece of quoted text in either FAQ?
 >
 > Browser broken?

Just very lazy today....

This is the longest bit I could find from your FAQ. And it is very
relevant to the discussion in that FAQ.

"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw
these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more
than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and
defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood
stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its
breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding
voice.
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall
be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at
the same time insatiable desire.

Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on breast, his
breath coming in great gasps, and Gollum at his feet, resting on his
knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground." (LotR, VI, 3)


Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <wqNkc.2128$dj7.19502131@news-text.cableinet.net>,
spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk says...
 > Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
  > > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
  > > rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   > >> What about quoting huge chunks of text with very little commentary.
   > >> That happens around here quite often...
  > >
  > > "Huge" and "quite often"? Really? I can't remember ever seeing a
  > > paragraph, and the vast majority of quotes aren't longer than a
  > > couple of sentences.
 >
 > I'll have to Google for this, but I do remember one person in particular
 > quoting huge amounts of text earlier this year.

You are probably thinking of Michael O'Neill, perhaps the discussion
that he and Conrad were having about Gandalf being naked.

 >
   > >> What is the longest continuous piece of quoted text in either FAQ?
  > >
  > > Browser broken?
 >
 > Just very lazy today....

I think Stan has not had his morning coffee yet...
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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