Fake or Facsimile?

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" <johndeletethis RemoveThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message news:<2i3m63FilrggU1 RemoveThis @uni-berlin.de>...
 > Diane wrote:
 >
  > > I'm sick of the rise in fake jackets being sold on ebay and elsewhere.
 > Can't
  > > think of anything else to say, bye.
 >
 > I'm curious. How do you know they are fakes (the eBay and other online ones,
 > at least)? Are they identifiable from the sellers' pictures, or is it only
 > when some disgruntled buyer leaves negative feedback that the truth comes
 > out?
 >
 > How do the sellers fake the jackets, and what gives them away? I'm imagining
 > they use scanners or digital cameras, and that any flaws (tears, creases,
 > etc.) in the original will become two-dimensional irregularities in the
 > copies. That shouldn't be too hard to detect once one actually has the
 > article in one's hand. Differences in paper quality might not be apparent
 > unless one has a genuine jacket to compare it with.
 >
 > What percentage of fakes do you think go undetected by their purchasers, and
 > what effect will this have on the market?

This could be just semantics, but I think there's a difference between
a fake and a facsimile. It's all in how the item is presented.
Reputable sellers will always make known the fact that a jacket is a
reproduction, or facsimile. Some jackets are so rare or so wonderfully
reflect the art design of an era that a facsimile jacket can serve as
a nice enhancement to a rare book. Bear in mind, a facsimile jacket
will not, and should not, add an ounce of monetary value to a
collectible book, but can serve as a nice conversation piece. On the
other hand, if one is trying to pass off a facsimile as the real deal,
then I call that a "fake."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

"Paul Taylor" <pandmtaylor.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote
 > Bear in mind, a facsimile jacket
 > will not, and should not, add an ounce of monetary value to a
 > collectible book, but can serve as a nice conversation piece. On the
 > other hand, if one is trying to pass off a facsimile as the real deal,
 > then I call that a "fake."

I feel the facsimile jacket cost should be added to the price of the
jacketless book.
--
Bob Finnan
The Hardy Boys Unofficial Home Page
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To reply: replace nospam with fwdixon
......................................................................<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

 >"Paul Taylor" <pandmtaylor.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote
  >> Bear in mind, a facsimile jacket
  >> will not, and should not, add an ounce of monetary value to a
  >> collectible book, but can serve as a nice conversation piece. On the
  >> other hand, if one is trying to pass off a facsimile as the real deal,
  >> then I call that a "fake."
 >
 >I feel the facsimile jacket cost should be added to the price of the
 >jacketless book.
 >--
 >Bob Finnan

Why shouldnt a facsimile jacket add value to a collectible book? Surely its far
better to have a nice laser copy of the original jacket than none at all? Im
sure this has been debated at length on numerous occasions on this group but
personally I would much rather have a valuable book with a dustjacket of any
description than none at all.

Many top dealers in the UK sell important First Editions at high profile fairs
with quality photocopied jackets. As long as its made abundantly clear that
the jacket is a facsimile I see no problem.

There is also one very major UK dealer and probably also numerous major US
dealers who not only discard the jackets of very valuable First Editions they
also rip the original boards off as well and have them rebound in leather!!

Stan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

Paul Taylor wrote:

 > This could be just semantics, but I think there's a difference
 > between a fake and a facsimile.

No, it's not just semantics. A facsimile that is clearly marked as such
(such as the ones listed here
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.facsimiledustjackets.com/cgi-bin/fdj455/" target="_blank">http://www.facsimiledustjackets.com/cgi-bin/fdj455/</a>) is not a fake (though
an online seller who concealed the fact that a jacket was so marked would of
course be acting fraudulently.

 > Reputable sellers will always make known the fact that a jacket
 > is a reproduction, or facsimile.

I would go a bit further and say that reputable sellers will not be selling
a reproduction jacket that does not clearly identify itself as such. Apart
from anything else, there are copyright issues involved.

 > if one is trying to pass off a facsimile as the real deal,
 > then I call that a "fake."

Obviously.

I'm still interested to hear from Denise or anyone else about whether fakes
can be detected just from an online image, and what impact such fakes are
likely to have on the market.

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

 >I'm still interested to hear from Denise or anyone else about whether fakes
 >can be detected just from an online image, and what impact such fakes are
 >likely to have on the market.

going off slightly at a tangent a number of publishers in the UK are nor
producing facsimile editions of collectable books such as the early Rupert Bear
Books and The Giles Annuals where the early editions fetch hundreds of pounds.
I also think there are facsimiles of some of the early James Bond books being
produced.

In the circumstances I dont see what all the fuss is about when a facisimile
jacket is added to a First Edition providing that if the item is offered for
sale it is clearly marked as such.

Stan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:11:35 +0100, "Diane"
<diane.walker RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk> declared:

 >I'm sick of the rise in fake jackets being sold on ebay and elsewhere. Can't
 >think of anything else to say, bye.
 >

mind giving a few examples of what you are talking about?


Robert

--

The sound of gunfire, off in the distance, I'm getting used to it now
Lived in a brownstone, lived in the ghetto, I've lived all over this town
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

Giltedge04 wrote:

 > In the circumstances I dont see what all the fuss is about when a
facisimile
 > jacket is added to a First Edition providing that if the item is offered
for
 > sale it is clearly marked as such.

Unless I've misunderstood Denise, I don't think there is any fuss about
this. The fuss, as I understand it, is about fakes - facsimiles not marked
as such and being passed off as the real thing. I'm still interested to know
whether these can be detected via a digital image only, without setting
hands on the jacket itself, and what impact people feel they are likely to
have on the book market.

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

John wrote

 > I'm still interested to know
 >whether these can be detected via a digital image only, without setting
 >hands on the jacket itself, and what impact people feel they are likely to
 >have on the book market.

I agree John that the real concern is unscrupulous sellers passing of
facsimiles as the real thing and no I don't think they are detectable from the
image alone. In fact, if someone was really devious they wouldn't even have to
use photos of the facsimile they could utilise someone else's listing or even
visit the website database of facsimiles and thieve their images. All one can
hope is that the ebay feedback system works as a warning in such instances and
the buyer has the ability to obtain a refund.

I note from the facsimile jacket website that all their jackets are marked as
being facsimiles on the inside cover.

These facsimile jackets have been around for a number of years in the UK. I
remember seeing a dealer friend with numerous Famous Five Books with facsimile
jackets about 3 years ago. I doubt they will have much impact on the book
market.


Stan
Giltedge Books, Essex UK<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" <johndeletethis.TakeThisOut@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in
message news:2iahl4Fknv0sU1@uni-berlin.de...
 > Giltedge04 wrote:
 >
  > > In the circumstances I dont see what all the fuss is about when a
 > facisimile
  > > jacket is added to a First Edition providing that if the item is
offered
 > for
  > > sale it is clearly marked as such.
 >
 > Unless I've misunderstood Denise, I don't think there is any fuss about
 > this. The fuss, as I understand it, is about fakes - facsimiles not
marked
 > as such and being passed off as the real thing. I'm still interested to
know
 > whether these can be detected via a digital image only, without setting
 > hands on the jacket itself, and what impact people feel they are likely
to
 > have on the book market.
 >
 > --
 > John
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font</a>>
 >


It was Diane Jim. Not Denise.


Max<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

 > It was Diane Jim. Not Denise.
 >
 >
 > Max

Thanks, Marvin. I'd forget my own name if it wasn't screwed on.

--
Jonah
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" <johndeletethis.TakeThisOut@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in
message news:2ialnbFl0pe8U1@uni-berlin.de...
  > > It was Diane Jim. Not Denise.
  > >
  > >
  > > Max
 >
 > Thanks, Marvin. I'd forget my own name if it wasn't screwed on.
 >
 > --
 > Jonah
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font</a>>


No problem Julian.

Back-timing as well I notice.

(If only it worked with Ladbrokes)

Now for the tricky bit.



Maurice<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

"Diane" <diane.walker.DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:<40bc91f6$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>...
 > I'm sick of the rise in fake jackets being sold on ebay and elsewhere. Can't
 > think of anything else to say, bye.

I dislike the companies who sell only xerox copies of things e.g. dws
and old periodical texts. It's fair enough to supply a xerox copy of
something with an original book (provided that it is described as a
xerox copy), but people who just sell scans from internet-culled
images - or stuff photocopied from their locallibrary - are quite
definitely members of the species which feed on carrion.

CB
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.hauntedriver.co.uk" target="_blank">www.hauntedriver.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile? 

CB writes:

 >I dislike the companies who sell only xerox copies of things e.g. dws
 >and old periodical texts. It's fair enough to supply a xerox copy of
 >something with an original book (provided that it is described as a
 >xerox copy), but people who just sell scans from internet-culled
 >images - or stuff photocopied from their locallibrary - are quite
 >definitely members of the species which feed on carrion.

I feel the same way about those who sell CDs of texts that are made freely
available by the Gutenberg Project and other such services. I see these on eBay
all the time.

--Helen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Fake or Facsimile?