Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus

The name "Santa Claus" appears to come from the Dutch for Saint Nicholas who
delivers the Christmas gifts in some countries. By the way, Santa Claus
predates Coca Cola. I think there has been several versions of Santa
Claus's appearance over the years. As for Father Christmas, I don't know
his origins but there may have been aspects of him taken from Santa Claus
(and vis/versa). By the way, you might want to check out a book titled
(IIRC) _Letters from Father Christmas_ by Tolkien. Apparently Tolkien gave
his children letters said to be from Father Christmas. They were later
collected in book form. When I read it I saw the similarities between
Father Christmas and Santa Claus.

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"Paul Ciszek" <nospam.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dp17ul$8rh$1@reader2.panix.com...
>I just checked tLtWatW book, and Father Christmas is described as
> wearing a red robe with white trim, and driving a sledge pulled by
> reindeer. My question is, before Americans got their mits on St.
> Nicholas and turned him into a marketing icon, did the English
> Father Christmas wear red and drive a sledge pulled by reindeer?
> I had been led to believe that "Santa Claus" was a creation of
> the Coca Cola company. In the movie, oddly enough, they had him
> dress much more plainly than the book describes. Usually it's the
> other way around.
>
> --
> Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
> pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
> Autoreply is disabled |
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus 

mewthree wrote:
> "Paul Ciszek" <nospam.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:dp38uu$faj$1@reader2.panix.com...
> >
> > In article <1135926329.397297.327360.RemoveThis@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Graeme <graemecree.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>I had been led to believe that "Santa Claus" was a creation of
> >>>the Coca Cola company.
> >>
> >>
> >>No, "Santa Claus" as he's depicted today, dates back to Thomas Nast
> >>drawings done shortly after the American Civil War.
> >
> > OK. Now, can anyone say whether the English "Father Christmas" wore
> > red or drove a sleigh pulled by reindeer *before* Thomas Nast defined
> > the cannonical American "Santa Claus"?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
> > pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
> > Autoreply is disabled |
>
>
> the name "santa claus" comes from the name saint Nicklaus. a german who gave
> pressents to orphans at christmas.
>
> father christmas is a figure who was made by the christains from a druid
> figure who took mushrooms ( the red and white ones) and gave presents out at
> winter equinox. this is why we have christmas in december(winter) not
> september(autumn) when it should be.


My understanding was that the time of the celebration was established
earlier. When Christianity became the official religion in Rome
Christmas was set to preempt the Roman winter holiday. Celebrating the
rebirth of the sun is a pretty common thing in agricultural societies
and local bits (trees, Father Christmas, etc.) filtered in from various
traditions. I have heard the autumn date advanced before, who knows
really, I don't think it matters much.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus 

In article <1135926329.397297.327360 RemoveThis @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Graeme <graemecree RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>>I had been led to believe that "Santa Claus" was a creation of
>>the Coca Cola company.
>
>
>No, "Santa Claus" as he's depicted today, dates back to Thomas Nast
>drawings done shortly after the American Civil War.

OK. Now, can anyone say whether the English "Father Christmas" wore
red or drove a sleigh pulled by reindeer *before* Thomas Nast defined
the cannonical American "Santa Claus"?


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Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus 

>OK. Now, can anyone say whether the English "Father Christmas" wore
>red or drove a sleigh pulled by reindeer *before* Thomas Nast defined
>the cannonical American "Santa Claus"?

There was a character in medieval England known as Old Winter. Old
Winter was an elderly community member who visited each house dressed
in furs and was plied with food and drink at each one. The idea was
that he carried the spirit of winter with him, and if you're nice to
winter, winter will be nice to you. He wasn't specifically associated
with Christmas at all. Didn't bring gifts, and wasn't associated with
children. He was supposed to arrive on December 6.


The Americans borrowed Santa Claus from the Dutch, by the succession we
all know: Saint Nicholas > Sinterklaas > Santa Claus. The Dutch had
imagined him a bit like Fred Astaire, kind of tall, thin and dignified.
In the early 19th century, Washington Irving started imagining him as
a stocky guy with baggy pants and a pipe. "The Night Before Christmas"
was published in 1823, and added the reindeer and several other things
we know now. But an 1858 Harper's drawing still has him without a
beard.

The Thomas Nast drawings that show him looking the way we think he
should today, date from after the Civil War, which is also about the
time that retailers first started experimenting with the idea of
associating special sales with Christmas.

Then after Americans did all this, their Santa Claus construct went
back to England sometime during the late Victorian Era, and merged with
Old Winter to become Father Christmas. The reindeer and red suit seem
to have been part of the American contribution, though that's not to
say that Old Winter was *never* drawn in a red suit before that.


Now, someone said they thought Coca-Cola invented him. That's an urban
legend, but corporate America is responsible for one of Santa's
friends. Montgomery Ward introduced Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, in
1939.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus 

"Paul Ciszek" <nospam.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dp38uu$faj$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> In article <1135926329.397297.327360.DeleteThis@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Graeme <graemecree.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
>>>I had been led to believe that "Santa Claus" was a creation of
>>>the Coca Cola company.
>>
>>
>>No, "Santa Claus" as he's depicted today, dates back to Thomas Nast
>>drawings done shortly after the American Civil War.
>
> OK. Now, can anyone say whether the English "Father Christmas" wore
> red or drove a sleigh pulled by reindeer *before* Thomas Nast defined
> the cannonical American "Santa Claus"?
>
>
> --
> Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
> pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
> Autoreply is disabled |


the name "santa claus" comes from the name saint Nicklaus. a german who gave
pressents to orphans at christmas.

father christmas is a figure who was made by the christains from a druid
figure who took mushrooms ( the red and white ones) and gave presents out at
winter equinox. this is why we have christmas in december(winter) not
september(autumn) when it should be.
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus 

Graeme wrote:

> >OK. Now, can anyone say whether the English "Father Christmas" wore
> >red or drove a sleigh pulled by reindeer *before* Thomas Nast defined
> >the cannonical American "Santa Claus"?
>
> There was a character in medieval England known as Old Winter. Old
> Winter was an elderly community member who visited each house dressed
> in furs and was plied with food and drink at each one. The idea was
> that he carried the spirit of winter with him, and if you're nice to
> winter, winter will be nice to you. He wasn't specifically associated
> with Christmas at all. Didn't bring gifts, and wasn't associated with
> children. He was supposed to arrive on December 6.
>
> The Americans borrowed Santa Claus from the Dutch, by the succession we
> all know: Saint Nicholas > Sinterklaas > Santa Claus. The Dutch had
> imagined him a bit like Fred Astaire, kind of tall, thin and dignified.
> In the early 19th century, Washington Irving started imagining him as
> a stocky guy with baggy pants and a pipe. "The Night Before Christmas"
> was published in 1823, and added the reindeer and several other things
> we know now. But an 1858 Harper's drawing still has him without a
> beard.
>
> The Thomas Nast drawings that show him looking the way we think he
> should today, date from after the Civil War, which is also about the
> time that retailers first started experimenting with the idea of
> associating special sales with Christmas.
>
> Then after Americans did all this, their Santa Claus construct went
> back to England sometime during the late Victorian Era, and merged with
> Old Winter to become Father Christmas. The reindeer and red suit seem
> to have been part of the American contribution, though that's not to
> say that Old Winter was *never* drawn in a red suit before that.
>
> Now, someone said they thought Coca-Cola invented him. That's an urban
> legend, but corporate America is responsible for one of Santa's
> friends. Montgomery Ward introduced Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, in
> 1939.

Who's responsible for Frosty the Snowman?
 >> Stay informed about: Question about Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus