If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b8c7eb2a4615db698c86c@news.odyssey.net...
 > When Melkor killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils, and fled to Middle-
 > earth, Fëanor raised an army to follow him. The Valar advised
 > against this:
 >
 > "But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of
 > Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the
 > folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the
 > hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.
 > No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they
 > hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely
 > shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art
 > exiled.'"
 >
 > As we know, Fëanor persisted in his course. But suppose he had not;
 > what might the Valar have done?
 >
 > What was in the mind of Manwë? That Fëanor should simply write off
 > the Silmarils, mourn his father, and live quietly in Valinor?
 >
 > What if anything could the Valar have been thinking about doing to
 > control Melkor themselves, if Fëanor had not taken matters into his
 > own hands? They couldn't very well make war against him, because of
 > all the Avari and Teleri in Middle-earth.
 >
 > --

I think "For the hour is evil" is significant.
It seems to me that Manwe was telling them that the time was not right to do
what they were planning.
If they had stopped, waited and worked with the Valar (whatever the plan
would have been) there would have been no Kinslaying and everything else bad
that went after.
It must have been a pretty difficult time for the Valar, maybe not
physically difficult, with the slaying of the Trees, Melkor's betrayal and
the Children leaving home.
And who knows what they had to do to sustain Valinor after the Trees died.

I remember reading that even though the Noldor were doomed to fail what they
did was good because they contained Morgoth to the North and minimized his
influence over the rest of ME.

T.A.

P.S. The Valar, attacking Morgoth earlier would not have had to deal with
any Dragons either and might have even kept them from being "created".
Though I'm sure a few Balrogs would have escaped just like in the real
timeline.

Still might have had Sauron though, mucking up the 2nd Age and some Noldor
that decided to remain behind after the War. Maybe one of the Sons of Feanor
decides to make some Rings.....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar 

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.1b8c7eb2a4615db698c86c@news.odyssey.net...
 > When Melkor killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils, and fled to Middle-
 > earth, Fëanor raised an army to follow him. The Valar advised
 > against this:
 >
 > "But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of
 > Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the
 > folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the
 > hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.
 > No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they
 > hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely
 > shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art
 > exiled.'"
 >
 > As we know, Fëanor persisted in his course. But suppose he had not;
 > what might the Valar have done?
 >
 > What was in the mind of Manwë? That Fëanor should simply write off
 > the Silmarils, mourn his father, and live quietly in Valinor?

I think the Valar were more hoping that most of the Noldor would
choose not to follow Feanor, then trying to convince himself not to go.

 > What if anything could the Valar have been thinking about doing to
 > control Melkor themselves, if Fëanor had not taken matters into his
 > own hands? They couldn't very well make war against him, because of
 > all the Avari and Teleri in Middle-earth.

Perhaps if Feanor had not been so unreasonable and simply demand
that he had the right to take vengeance on Melkor and recover the
Silmarils, the Valar would have seen this as a justified cause and
supported it at least by providing free departure for the Noldor, and
perhaps military aid later on when it would be possible.
But of course there were complicating issues involved. Noldor
wanted independent realms on the Middle-Earth, and Valar wanted
the Silmarils for themselves. Generally, too much mistrust among the
leading figures for a compromise to be possible.

Morgil<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar 

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b8c7eb2a4615db698c86c@news.odyssey.net...

 > As we know, Fëanor persisted in his course. But suppose
 > he had not; what might the Valar have done?

I don't think it was really about HIM at that point. The Valar were
exiling Feanor himself... it was the REST of the Noldor that they were
telling to turn back. Some of the Noldor DID turn back and that might
have been all the Valar hoped to gain from sending the messenger.

How events would have unfolded if all but Feanor and a small number of
his followers had turned back is difficult to say. Feanor was still
exiled and would presumably still go to Middle-earth... I'd imagine the
oath would hold at least his sons to follow him as well. Once they
arived they'd have much less of an impact... but then Morgoth might have
felt that he could eventually crush the Elves with Orcs alone and never
have felt the need to create the dragons.

If the Valar had a plan for such a contingency it was probably the same
one they eventually enacted... send a host to defeat Morgoth before he
could completely dominate Middle-earth.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar 

Morgil wrote:

 > and Valar wanted
 > the Silmarils for themselves.

They did?


-- FotW

Tolkien reuels!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar 

Flame of the West <jsolinas.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
 > Morgil wrote:
 >
  >> and Valar wanted
  >> the Silmarils for themselves.
 >
 > They did?

Yes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If Feanor had listened to the messenger of the Valar